RMK had teams that did that, too. A Belein team at Michigan gave up 28 straight to a Crean team, for heaven's sake.
It happens, even to the best of coaches.
Coaching!
- Thread starter GMAN213
- Start date
It happens, even to the best of coaches.
Your quoting one game this team does it multiple times in every game. Just take your dumb shit somewhere else. Let’s see how they do on the road against Illini and Purdue.
What do you call it when a team gets down 6 points in the second half after being ahead, and then wins?
But you can say that we did what was necessary to the #9 team in the country to be up by 19. Penn State fought back to go up 6, but our boys didn't quit, fought back, and won the game. A lot of positives happened tonight.
I call it a 40-minute game in which IU was in the driver's seat the last 4 minutes. The game didn't end at the point when IU lost its lead. (When that happened, some of you lost your minds, though.)
Am I allowed to call it a win?
Because who wants to be on this board full of sad whiny losers that overreact to every loss. This board is unbearable after every loss
The same could be said for those of us with higher aspirations for the program . . . we’re forced to endure the lowered expectations of posters who excuse every loss and for whom a top half in the BT and an NCAA tournament berth are considered a successful season. We find that just as unbearable.
Because they get blown out on the road and then at home they lose in the last few minutes. I’m sorry if us true Indiana fans get upset after losing. What do you do? Go have some beers and celebrate that participation trophy.
This team has flaws. Flaws that won’t be corrected this season or even over the summer. Flaws that lead to inconsistent execution. However, while at times this season effort has been inconsistent, the last two games reflected 40 minute effort. The team has enough talent with 40 minute effort to be a middle of the pack Big Ten team and middle of the pack NCAA seed. This team has a low margin for error, so even 35 minute efforts can sink them.
In terms of the program, IU is where it is, but go back to Archie’s arrival and a couple of highlights from his opening press conference:
1. Recruit inside out (State of Indiana first). —This has been reflected in his first 3 recruiting classes
2. Team will be based on defense / effort. — This has been a work in progress over each season, but prior to and after each game (rebounding, effort, closeouts) have been Archie’s focus
3. Defense into transition — Countlessly mentioned about IU’s offense much more effective in transition
Archie stated a strategy and so far has been a man of his word. Many also mentioned he wants long teams, for defensive and rebounding advantages. —TJD, Smith, Race, Hunter, Franklin, add in the 2020 recruits all 6’ 4”+ (all sg/sf), the transformation is underway.
Archie is building a foundation, a foundation he expressed in his acceptance speech and frankly hasn’t deviated from. Will the foundation be strong enough to re-establish Indiana as a blue blood, that is TBD. However, this year’s team and their corresponding performance being used as a referendum on the program and its future trajectory is flawed.
For this season 20-11 regular season is successful, it won’t be a success next season or after. Archie needs to stack the 2020 & 2021 classes. When he does and as the fr/so become upperclassmen, the Indiana you want/expect should return.
Remember, this current team has flaws/ a talent ceiling, the hope is to achieve that ceiling through sustained effort, but at the end of the day talent wins out (Indiana will lose to certain teams even at 100% effort). This team isn’t talented enough, over the next few years it needs to be.
2020 & 2021 recruiting and next seasons play will provide plenty of data points to evaluate the state/trajectory of the program vs this season’s team.
Underlying 95% of the discussions on this board for the last 12 months have been varying opinions based on extrapolation of the future. Mix in long-term frustration, game specific frustration, the need to be right / not admitting on being wrong, state recruits vs star ratings, and its Thunderdome. All because there are not enough data points and Romeo/TJD turned many IU fans into Veruca Salt (I want it all / I want it now / I’m entitled to it).
This program’s foundation was pretty hollow (APR, 2016 / 2017 recruiting classes, in state recruiting dead). The Big Ten title in 2016 masked significant program level flaws. The foundation 3 years later against those 3 areas is much stronger. The question still unanswered is whether the program is becoming strong enough and will it be strong enough to support an eventual blue-blood performing level. Still to early to tell, but 18 months from now it will be much clearer.
Meanwhile, try to enjoy this season for what it is, trying to maximize the effort/performance of a flawed team.
Last edited:
Don’t play the “us true Indiana fans” card, because whining and crying after every loss doesn’t make you even slightly more of an IU fan than those of us that don’t whine and cry. It more accurately makes you a whining and crying IU fan wanting instant gratification like a 5 year old does. By now it should be obvious to all what the limitations of the team are and why it’s led to inconsistent results. It should also be obvious that individual players are developing and that Miller is building a program. He’s addressing the limitations through development and recruiting. Finally, regardless of how much whining and crying a certain segment of fan does, Miller is our coach for next year, guaranteed, and almost guaranteed for the next. Pointless whining and crying might be temporarily gratifying, but it isn’t real mature, and it can’t be good for your health.
This whole post is dumb and I’m pretty convinced you’re a troll. But I’ll respond.
You think complaining is helping? What do you thinks going to happen. I’ve been on this board after a loss before. Everyone complains about everything, and none of them know anything about basketball. The players or team don’t owe you anything. You don’t “deserve” to watch a championship caliber team just cause you went to IU or whatever reason you like IU.
Remember a couple weeks ago when everyone was saying stuff like “why did Race come to IU” or “Jerome Hunter is not a BIG player” then they show up and help us win a huge game. All it’s proved is you know nothing about basketball. The crazies even came out before the game was over.
And I don’t get all the people saying we should be way better. As of now, it may be hard to believe, but we are a fringe top 25 team. NO ONE expected that. People were saying bubble team on the outside looking in. I was thinking that too. Not that I was happy about it, but we’ve clearly not outperformed. The season isn’t even over. We may rattle off 5+ wins and people will still complain.
And don’t start with the “not a true fan LOLOL.” I’m just as much of a fan as you, probably more. I live and die by the team. The only difference between me and you is you enjoy when they lose, and I enjoy when they win. And when you guys attack the players it does hurt. Justin has turned off all social media. Armaan has hung out at a football tailgate with my friends before. So think about who you may be affecting when you stay stupid things.
I should’ve just responded that you’re dumb. You’re probably not going to read this because you don’t care. Whatever, enjoy the season loser.
It’s a message board you ****ing moron. Who do you think reads it?my take is if they read it and don’t like the negative posts then maybe they should play better.
So they are choosing to play mediocre? Your post implies upon reading negative posts that the players should be motivated to play better and therefore choose to play better? Effort might be a choice, but skill/talent can’t be motivated with 2 weeks remaining in the season. For offseason training sure, but not at this point. This team is what it is, low margin for error, needs sustained effort and concentration for 40 minutes in order to be a decent team (they can’t be great based on talent/skill). Their effort is reflected in defense and defensive rebounding, if they force a lot of one shot Tripp’s they are performing at their maximum. Keep posting however you wish, but given your perspective it seems like sports fandom for you no matter how successful the teams you root for are, will always be 10% joy / 90% pain (which seems like a poor return on emotional investment).
Oh please. This team and program is finding it's way under a new Coach, and the results have admittedly been less than anticipated. But, we are where we are. This team lost it's 2 best scorers and players off a team that cratered to end the year last year and didn't make the tourney. This year's team is finding it's way and has rallied to the point that it looks likely we will make it. Sure, we all want to be back to contending for conference championships and F4s, but this years team is making progress. Yes, a top half of the conference finish and making the tourney is a successful season THIS year and a step towards getting us back towards those loftier goals. If you don't think so, I'd suggest taking a break from these boards until we get to the point where your "higher aspirations" are being met. You're too soft for the path it takes to get there.
“Oh please” right back at you. “Finding its way”, no matter how many times you use it, is as soft and rosy as it gets, with no real depth of understanding as to where the program is whatsoever. Excuses like yours have been flowing for over 20 years, and they’ll continue to be front and center among those who’s expectations have lowered over time. You’re welcome to those reduced standards that you have, but some of us still want more.
Glad the team has won some games recently and I hope that continues, but expecting less generally gets you less, and that’s IU basketball in a nutshell.
W is a W. Does not matter how you get it.
This far into the season we know it's rarely going to look good. It likely going to be a roller coaster. It's never going to be easy for this team. You don't have to like it but you have to acknowledge that reality.
Looking ahead, IU has 4 to win 2. If the regular season ends sitting at 20 wins and .500 in conference it would go a long way toward making the NCAA tournament. That said, I do not expect much this week on the road. Outside of the Min game, they haven't shown an ability to hold things together on the road. Would love that to change, but again, it's the reality.
This far into the season we know it's rarely going to look good. It likely going to be a roller coaster. It's never going to be easy for this team. You don't have to like it but you have to acknowledge that reality.
Looking ahead, IU has 4 to win 2. If the regular season ends sitting at 20 wins and .500 in conference it would go a long way toward making the NCAA tournament. That said, I do not expect much this week on the road. Outside of the Min game, they haven't shown an ability to hold things together on the road. Would love that to change, but again, it's the reality.
Last edited:
I don't have lesser standards, as I said, but I also understand that it's a process to get back there. What, you think Archie just forgot to flip the Final 4 button?
Look at UVA. Bennett's teams missed the tourney his first 2 years and then made it in his 3rd. Took him 5 years to win a conference crown, 7 to make an E8 and get past his only S16 and then a full 10 to make a F4 and win a NC. Took Beilein 5 years to win a conference title and then made the Finals in his 6th year. Jay Wright? 4 years to make the tourney, 5 to win a conference title and 8 to make a F4. That's the type of timeline we're likely on. Kids leaving early has totally changed the dynamic of developing a class over 4 years, because oftentimes the best players are gone after 2-3 and you're starting over. You can talk all you want about loftier standards, but to get there, it takes time and is a process and isn't going to happen overnight. Is CAM the right guy for the job? I don't know and the road has been rockier than I expected, but I do see progress this year and will be happy if we make the tourney and play well in doing so.
Don' ask such hard questions on this board. Multiple choice options, please.
To each his own. I don’t see any of Bennett in Miller so, while I understand your use of him as an illustration of the process, I don’t believe it’s applicable.
Miller missed an opportunity early on to invest in building a program culture, and it’s hindered progress ever since. Moreover, it’s allowed an alternative culture to grow in its place, one in which a lack of accountability has taken root. As any number of programs across various sports have shown, culture is infinitely more important than scheme, and in this area I think the differences between Miller and Bennett are stark. Bennett was, first and foremost, a culture guy, and it’s led to long term program building and the winning that inevitably follows.
Miller seems far more focused on scheme, something that’s been shown to always produce uneven results because it relies too heavily on things largely out of your control. Crean was the poster child for scheme over culture, and the results showed it.
Again, the sports world is full of examples of the differences that exist in the culture versus scheme debate, and it’s why schools who are fortunate enough to get the Bennett’s of the world do almost anything to keep them. In this regard, could there be no better example than IU and Knight and the lengths the University went to with him in an effort to maintain the culture that is now so elusive?
Maybe Miller will be the guy. But I’m far less confident than you based on what I consider to be the winning formula for success and Miller’s inability to establish that, in large part because he didn’t prioritize it.
and yet Bennett's focus, as you claim, on culture vs scheme, didn't yield them any better results than what we are seeing, nor in the other examples I provided. I know, it's easier to throw a tantrum and kick and scream about "loftier standards" but I gave you real examples of other modern successful coaches and programs at which you'd still be kicking and screaming with their results in year 3, which are totally in line with ours. Now, the proof is in the pudding. It's time for some of these accomplishments to start taking shape. Will they? I have no idea, but I do know that Miller's not going anywhere for a year and probably two and following the timelines of some of these other programs we should see tourney appearances and a climb in the B10 standings to the top. So if those 2 things don't coincide, then that's when I'd see us making a change.
But most people saw the progress Bennett was making, and it was clear that success was coming. That’s not the case at IU. It’s easier to say that you have high standards but are still willing to see how things shake out, but neither you nor anyone else can point to IU’s culture under Miller and say, with reasonable certainty, what it is or that it’s a proven formula for successful program building.
That’s the point that you and most others fail to grasp. You’re still focused on scheme and whether we won last week and are oblivious to the longer term culture argument. It’s no different than when the “We’re Back!” wave of enthusiasm swept through the fan base after one game. Culture was ignored because we beat UK, and that’s all anyone could see. Forget that that team got blasted in the BTT and stumbled through their abbreviated trip through the tournament before getting spit out as a pretender. We were back, and then we weren’t.
It’s the same here every time IU wins. People declare progress, talk about how things are looking up, how so and so is really starting to come on . . . and then they’re mystified when we get blasted at Michigan.
I agree Miller isn’t going anywhere for awhile and I’m fine with that, but I don’t see the necessary ingredient for a winning program, at least not yet. And the longer culture construction takes, the harder it is to build and implement, in my opinion.
Yes, but not so often as it happens to Crean or Archie. RMK made use of those situations and made it an embarrassing learning tool. If we weren't on the bubble, I'd suggest that could help this team
I think I agree 100%, but the basic idea that a good coach can't get good to decent players to play as a team consistently is troubling, I think that's where we are. Wow, weird post for me, it somehow embedded into your OP, I managed to fix it after an edit but weird.
Last edited:
If he wasn't making the tournament, how was it clear Bennett was making progress? I'm REALLY curious about that, because he was my first choice for IU and I live in NC so I watch a lot of ACC ball and I followed him pretty closely at UVA. The fact is, I think you're making declarations after the fact you know nothing about. They'd play well and upset a UNC and then get butt-blasted by Duke. Even as recently as their throttling by UMBC, and after multiple conference championships, many of their fans were still questioning if Bennett's approach could get it done.
And, I also get what you're saying about culture, but I also think there is something to the fact that Green, Smith and Durham were recruited by Crean and are never going to totally buy in to what Miller is selling. Guess what? Those take care of themselves over the next 2 years two. I think it's plausible that, just as with Bennett, the players start to see the success and buy in more and more, and as he gets his recruits to replace them, they buy in from Day 1. Oh wait, that sounds like culture, so I couldn't be right about that could I?
Yes, it can, when you're being out-hustled our out coached. But it seems to happen here more than not, even if we're the better team and ultimately win the game. 19 point lead yesterday, they should have stepped on their throat and put it away by 20 +. Game should have been over at the half
I think the improvement in UVA was very evident in Year 3, even if they didn’t make the tournament. Again, it was apparent Bennett was changing the culture, and that was the key predictor of better days ahead. The t was the same with Knight, Keady, Barry Alvarez at Wisconsin, Hayden Fry at Iowa. Alvarez is the perfect example. He had three consecutive losing seasons to start at UW, but the improvement was obvious, just like it was for UVA under Bennett. Year 4? Big Ten champs and the Rose Bowl. By your view, no improvement was being made because Year 3 was a losing season, but a deeper look tells a more thoughtful story. The same could’ve been said about Bennett but not yet about Miller.
Leaders like that are far more focused on culture than scheme, and their long term results prove that. What’s the IU culture under Miller? I realize you’ve not been able to identify one, and I think that says quite a lot. Allowing Crean’s recruits to dictate their view of culture, rather than Miller setting that for the program, is a weakness that I’m surprised you missed. Saying it will work itself out when they leave is another fallacy of those who don’t really see the long term benefit of culture over scheme. Again, tell what Miller’s culture is, if you can. And if you cannot, why is that?
Last edited:
We’re in 9th place in the Big Ten, our recruiting is in shambles, we’re fighting to make the tournament for the first time in 3 years, and you come on here to find people beating their chests and bragging like we’re cutting down nets. What in the world happened to our fan base?
Ahhh, yep, there we go. I cited programs from the current culture and as I suspected, you want to go back 40 years and talk about guys like Knight, Keady, Hayden Fry??? and Barry flippin Alvarez, who could mostly develop classes along for 3-4 years? But wait, your standard is so much loftier, right? NC or bust? Remind me again how many NCs Barry, Hayden and Gene had?
The real difference is that TB was at UVA. They didn't have the expectations that a program like IU has so he had a longer leash. They weren't a big bball school until they got TB, that's the difference. It wasn't that they could see the arc of the program; they didn't care as much in Charlottesville in year 3. But guess what? He won 22 games and it's quite possible that we're going to approach that # this year in what is a brutal B10.
I totally think you have a legit issue with CAM and culture. It is frustrating, but the culture he wants is similar to UVA: D first and foremost and always and to own the State of IN in recruiting. I'd give him passing marks on the latter and a D on the former. I don't know if it's his communication style, or if it truly is guys like Green, Smith and Durham that didn't buy in early, but it's definitely something that needs to improve. But, guess what? If we see the results in years 3-5 I outlined with the others, everyone's going to be lauding the culture he's created. If not, then we'll be looking for a new coach or grumbling about needing one.
These are just full on blind delusions. There’s nothing objectively similar between Archie and TB. Nothing. Just blind hope and crimson glasses.
Not surprised you’re dismissive of the examples I cited since you really only pay lip service to the culture argument. You claim to know what Miller’s is but you can’t describe it even in the most general terms. Then you try to excuse Miller by saying what Bennett did was easier because UVA expected less. It’s fire cover for the lowered expectations you say you don’t have.
You already admitted you measure progress based only on wins, which basically means the issue of culture is foreign to your thinking. Only reinforces the earlier conclusion about standards, and that most people, including you, have lowered them. Miller had a chance to make the culture statement early and didn’t, and it’s still hanging around him like an albatross. Most have simply decided it doesn’t matter, and they’ll be same people who can’t figure out why IU can’t become a top program again. Wash, rinse repeat. After 20+ years, it’s very familiar to most of us.
Look your going to get bashed because now archie s the greatest coach in the world after two straight wins. The extremes are mind boggling. He wins the next one they willbe calling him big ten coach of the year. We should make the tourney unless we collapse.
My guess at the foundational culture elements:
1. True student athletes (lost in back half of the Crean administration), I believe APR (the only public measure) under Archie has been 1000 (I think there is at least a year of reporting lag with APR if I recall correctly)
2. Good citizens (I don’t believe there has been a law enforcement incident since Archie took over). There were multiple under Crean administration and even a few under Knight.
3. Win with in-state recruits when possible (inside-out recruiting)
4. Win with a concentration on defense / rebounding and transition offense
I think the 2020 class so far embodies the culture above, yet the class gets routinely classified as underwhelming/disaster (yet isn’t even complete). If the focus is a long term foundation/culture this is a great class, if it is wins at all cost (not as much). I think adding spring signees that might be “higher rated” is an easier foundational risk given the 3 players already secure. Stack a similar class in 2021 and Archie’s first 4 classes he recruited from scratch set a foundation aligned to what he introduced at his press conference just under 3 years ago.
I'm dismissive because 2 of your examples were in a different sport entirely, none of them save for RMK achieved the lofty standard you claim is so important to you, and all of them were from 30-40 years ago and not in the current climate of college bball in which you can get a good class or 2 of recruits that in that 30-40 year timespan you could have developed in to a championship team, whereas now you will lose the very top players from that class and have to start over. It makes developing that culture that much more difficult. It's also interesting to note that UVA was largely devoid of losing recruits early in TBs tenure. You can't put meaning to anything you're saying. It's all on the Birnk sliding scale of subjectivity. What is TB's culture in specific terms? Keady's, RMKs? Let me see your specifically worded examples. It's not a mathematical formula and you're right of course to a degree, because as I admitted, CAM has yet to be successful in getting us there.
I never admitted I based progress solely on wins, but since you say I did, would you quote it please? Just another of your claims. I've never said anything other that the verdict is still out on Archie, but with this year he can show progress similar to those other programs I mentioned. My point was 1) you don't have some higher standard, you just have decided Archie's not the guy and that's the way you've decided to express it. My point it, you'd have also been complaining about the coaches I mentioned because it took them a similar length of time to show results similar to what it appears our results will be this year. And, oh yeah, I went back to see when BA was coaching at WI and he was actually 5-6 in his 3rd year too, and it wasn't until his 4th year that he made the jump, but I'm sure you'd have been good with under 500 in his third year because you'd have been so comfortable with the culture he created!
Last edited:
Year 3 at UVA was tied for 2nd most wins since the Ralph Sampson era. Year 3 + year 4 was most wins in a 2 year period since Sampson era... then year 5 they got the first #1 seed (only the 3rd Top 4 seed) since Big Ralph.
Expectations at UVA prior to Bennet were much, much different than expectations at IU. Archie would need to win out from here and win the National Title to catch Crean's win total his last 3 years. Lots of other factors to consider, obviously, but program history is useful for context.
