Cleveland Clinic natural immunity findings

[mushroomgod_1]

They followed over 50000 of their employees for a period of 5 months, more than 1300 of whom had documented cases of Covid.

Their conclusion: "Not a single incidence of...infection was observed in previously infected participant with or without vaccination".

They indicated that the time length of natural immunity, like that of vaccinated immunity, is not known.

I have seen no indication that the period of natural immunity will be shorter than that of vaccinated immunity....I believe the opposite is more likely true.

 

[Bowlmania]

They followed over 50000 of their employees for a period of 5 months, more than 1300 of whom had documented cases of Covid.

Their conclusion: "Not a single incidence of...infection was observed in previously infected participant with or without vaccination".

They indicated that the time length of natural immunity, like that of vaccinated immunity, is not known.

I have seen no indication that the period of natural immunity will be shorter than that of vaccinated immunity....I believe the opposite is more likely true.

Good post until you injected your "belief," Doc.

"'What we don't know is what's the duration of that protection? And also remember our population of health care workers is younger in general, it's healthier. We're not saying don't get the vaccine,' says Dr. Steve Gordon of Cleveland Clinic, one of the authors of the study.

Dr. Gordon says those who've been infected can still get vaccinated if they so choose, but those who choose not to should be aware that eventually that protection will wane. Just like those who've been vaccinated."

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/h...ction/95-a2f9a5ee-d74e-46d6-a092-2296c445bd43

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

They followed over 50000 of their employees for a period of 5 months, more than 1300 of whom had documented cases of Covid.

Their conclusion: "Not a single incidence of...infection was observed in previously infected participant with or without vaccination".

They indicated that the time length of natural immunity, like that of vaccinated immunity, is not known.

I have seen no indication that the period of natural immunity will be shorter than that of vaccinated immunity....I believe the opposite is more likely true.

Vaccinations plus immunity for those that have previously had COVID are what will get us back to normal pretty soon. Hopefully, before football and basketball seasons.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Good post until you injected your "belief," Doc.

"'What we don't know is what's the duration of that protection? And also remember our population of health care workers is younger in general, it's healthier. We're not saying don't get the vaccine,' says Dr. Steve Gordon of Cleveland Clinic, one of the authors of the study.

Dr. Gordon says those who've been infected can still get vaccinated if they so choose, but those who choose not to should be aware that eventually that protection will wane. Just like those who've been vaccinated."

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/h...ction/95-a2f9a5ee-d74e-46d6-a092-2296c445bd43

Agreed we don't know. Just going, for now, with what is more likely than not. And I'm 100% certain my instincts have been more correct than yours over the course of this pandemic.

Those who have had covid may end up needing a booster shot.....just like those who have had the vaccine. Doesn't sound as though any of that is certain. For example, I doubt it is certain that natural immunity will wane, because other experts have said that is not a certainty. What we do know is that much of what has been presented as consensus fact has turned out to incorrect. And there has been a lot of disinformation floated by those who should have been trustworthy.

 

[Bowlmania]

And I'm 100% certain my instincts have been more correct than yours over the course of this pandemic.

Other than commenting recently about the efficacy of the vaccines, I can't remember posting anything about the pandemic in months.

You either have a phenomenal memory or you're giving me way more thought and attention than I deserve.

 

[outside shooter]

I have seen no indication that the period of natural immunity will be shorter than that of vaccinated immunity....I believe the opposite is more likely true.

Based on what evidence?

There is data from both Pfizer and Moderna to suggest that levels of neutralizing antibodies are HIGHER at various time points for vaccinated vs. infected & unvaccinated.

Antibodies wane over time, though T cell immunity takes over.

Still, I see no reason to presume that getting lower antibody levels, sooner, is a good thing. Those lower antibody levels are merely not low enough to provide an infection risk (yet?), when complemented by emerging T cell immunity.

 

[TommyCracker]

Agreed we don't know. Just going, for now, with what is more likely than not. And I'm 100% certain my instincts have been more correct than yours over the course of this pandemic.

Those who have had covid may end up needing a booster shot.....just like those who have had the vaccine. Doesn't sound as though any of that is certain. For example, I doubt it is certain that natural immunity will wane, because other experts have said that is not a certainty. What we do know is that much of what has been presented as consensus fact has turned out to incorrect. And there has been a lot of disinformation floated by those who should have been trustworthy.

Unless you drastically went against your party from the start of this mess then no, your 'instinct' has been disastrously wrong pretty much every step of the way.

You don't go from 'this will go from 15 down to zero' and 'this is just like the flu' and 'we'll be over this and back to being open by Memorial Day' (unless you meant Memorial Day 2021) to all of the mask and precaution denials and get to think that your 'instincts' were 100% correct.

Show a modicum of humility.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Based on what evidence?

There is data from both Pfizer and Moderna to suggest that levels of neutralizing antibodies are HIGHER at various time points for vaccinated vs. infected & unvaccinated.

Antibodies wane over time, though T cell immunity takes over.

Still, I see no reason to presume that getting lower antibody levels, sooner, is a good thing. Those lower antibody levels are merely not low enough to provide an infection risk (yet?), when complemented by emerging T cell immunity.

Take a look at this: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19....See especially the last paragraph. And this: https://www.goodrx.com/blog/how-long-does-covid-19-immunity-last/

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Take a look at this: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19....See especially the last paragraph. And this: https://www.goodrx.com/blog/how-long-does-covid-19-immunity-last/

And this one, which asks if immunity might last decades: https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-immunity-long-lasting.html

 

[outside shooter]

Yes, getting an infection gives you antibodies and immunity that might last for years. It is interesting whether immunity from vaccination is worse, the same, or better. That isn't clear yet, but secondary evidence (comparing antibody levels) suggests it is very likely to be better, or at worst, the same.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Yes, getting an infection gives you antibodies and immunity that might last for years. It is interesting whether immunity from vaccination is worse, the same, or better. That isn't clear yet, but secondary evidence (comparing antibody levels) suggests it is very likely to be better, or at worst, the same.

Sounds like you're back-tracking. See this one: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210121131909.htm

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Sounds like you're back-tracking. See this one: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210121131909.htm

Interesting quote:

"The immune system has a more efficient way of dealing with pathogens: instead of producing antibodies all the time, it creates memory B cells that recognize the pathogen, and can quickly unleash a new round of antibodies...."

See....I have common sense. I understand men's conceit. Therefore, it seemed to me to be a likely proposition that natural immunity would be more efficient and more long-lasting than that created by men.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Other than commenting recently about the efficacy of the vaccines, I can't remember posting anything about the pandemic in months.

You either have a phenomenal memory or you're giving me way more thought and attention than I deserve.

Could be wrong......you guys all sound alike. Did you read the articles I posted....interesting, right?

 

[bawlmer]

Interesting quote:

"The immune system has a more efficient way of dealing with pathogens: instead of producing antibodies all the time, it creates memory B cells that recognize the pathogen, and can quickly unleash a new round of antibodies...."

See....I have common sense. I understand men's conceit. Therefore, it seemed to me to be a likely proposition that natural immunity would be more efficient and more long-lasting than that created by men.

Being over 60 and over-weight, I'll stick with the vaccine vs taking a shot at natural immunity.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Interesting quote:

"The immune system has a more efficient way of dealing with pathogens: instead of producing antibodies all the time, it creates memory B cells that recognize the pathogen, and can quickly unleash a new round of antibodies...."

See....I have common sense. I understand men's conceit. Therefore, it seemed to me to be a likely proposition that natural immunity would be more efficient and more long-lasting than that created by men.

But the vaccine produces B cells.

“However, when you get the second dose of the vaccine, you’re further training your immune system,” said Boslett. “You’re strengthening that response from the antibody-producing B cells and you’re also activating T memory cells that stick around for much longer.” Getting both doses of the vaccine means your body is shown this spike protein multiple times in a short duration. “So that immune response might be bigger, better and longer lasting than just getting the infection one time,” she said.​

COVID-19 Vaccine Fact Vs. Fiction: An Expert Weighs in on Common Fears

We posed the most common COVID-19 vaccine quandaries to Bryn Boslett, MD, an infectious disease expert who is leading the vaccination effort at UCSF. She explains why mRNA vaccines won’t affect your DNA, which allergies pose a risk, what 95 percent efficacy really means, and more.

www.ucsf.edu

We don't know which is better. We won't know for years. But we do want to discourage people to get infected to avoid getting a vaccination (like the famed measles parties some people do). And we want people to know they were infected. I imagine we all know people who say they were infected but never had a test to confirm. Those people need vaccinated.

This article in the WSJ splits the difference, people who had infections should get one vaccination and not two:

Opinion | The Power of Natural Immunity

Studies show it’s durable and widespread. If you’ve had Covid, you can get by with one shot of vaccine.

www.wsj.com

 

[NPT]

Being over 60 and over-weight, I'll stick with the vaccine vs taking a shot at natural immunity.

Me too... too many long term complications from gaining natural immunity.

 

[larsIU]

Vaccinations plus immunity for those that have previously had COVID are what will get us back to normal pretty soon. Hopefully, before football and basketball seasons.

Gotta say, the USA v MEX soccer match on Sunday even with limited fans (I think 30k in whatever Mile High Stadium is called these days) was amazing. Even with all the shenanigans. Just the vibe and noise elevated the game and players.

Was nice to hear again.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Unless you drastically went against your party from the start of this mess then no, your 'instinct' has been disastrously wrong pretty much every step of the way.

You don't go from 'this will go from 15 down to zero' and 'this is just like the flu' and 'we'll be over this and back to being open by Memorial Day' (unless you meant Memorial Day 2021) to all of the mask and precaution denials and get to think that your 'instincts' were 100% correct.

Show a modicum of humility.

It's never been a party issue for me, Little Tommy. Why in the hell would it be? I did believe in the likelihood of a lab leak pretty early on. Not because anyone told me to........I know when someone is trying to blow smoke up my ass, and when those in authority are that anxious to tell you not to look at something, it's a definite red flag. And the strong circumstantial evidence was always there.

It was the Lefties on here who annointed Dr. Fauci to sainthood status, even though he lied about masks and herd immunity. And now we know he was anxious to manipulate public opinion on covid origin. Didn't you wonder about, Tommy, when he said 'don't walk around with a mask on' when millions of Chinese were doing exactly that? And then later said he had to lie for the public good? And what about his predictions that it would take years to have a vaccine? Yet, he was lionized by the Left. Pretty sad, right?

I never wrote anything like the quotes which you ignorantly ascribe to me.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Me too... too many long term complications from gaining natural immunity.

Of course. I've had the vaccine. It's a no-brainer for an older person who hasn't had the covid.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

But the vaccine produces B cells.

“However, when you get the second dose of the vaccine, you’re further training your immune system,” said Boslett. “You’re strengthening that response from the antibody-producing B cells and you’re also activating T memory cells that stick around for much longer.” Getting both doses of the vaccine means your body is shown this spike protein multiple times in a short duration. “So that immune response might be bigger, better and longer lasting than just getting the infection one time,” she said.​

COVID-19 Vaccine Fact Vs. Fiction: An Expert Weighs in on Common Fears

We posed the most common COVID-19 vaccine quandaries to Bryn Boslett, MD, an infectious disease expert who is leading the vaccination effort at UCSF. She explains why mRNA vaccines won’t affect your DNA, which allergies pose a risk, what 95 percent efficacy really means, and more.

www.ucsf.edu

We don't know which is better. We won't know for years. But we do want to discourage people to get infected to avoid getting a vaccination (like the famed measles parties some people do). And we want people to know they were infected. I imagine we all know people who say they were infected but never had a test to confirm. Those people need vaccinated.

This article in the WSJ splits the difference, people who had infections should get one vaccination and not two:

Opinion | The Power of Natural Immunity

Studies show it’s durable and widespread. If you’ve had Covid, you can get by with one shot of vaccine.

www.wsj.com

Stopped listening to Fauci a long time ago, but is it correct that he said his goal was '70-85% immunity through full vaccination"? That is, that he gave 0% credence to natural immunity after infection?

As to people not relying on their own covid diagnosis....of course.

As to splitting the difference....that's what you do when you don't know what to do.

 

[TommyCracker]

It's never been a party issue for me, Little Tommy. Why in the hell would it be? I did believe in the likelihood of a lab leak pretty early on. Not because anyone told me to........I know when someone is trying to blow smoke up my ass, and when those in authority are that anxious to tell you not to look at something, it's a definite red flag. And the strong circumstantial evidence was always there.

It was the Lefties on here who annointed Dr. Fauci to sainthood status, even though he lied about masks and herd immunity. And now we know he was anxious to manipulate public opinion on covid origin. Didn't you wonder about, Tommy, when he said 'don't walk around with a mask on' when millions of Chinese were doing exactly that? And then later said he had to lie for the public good? And what about his predictions that it would take years to have a vaccine? Yet, he was lionized by the Left. Pretty sad, right?

I never wrote anything like the quotes which you ignorantly ascribe to me.

So you retroactively state you believed all of the right wing narrative that might turn out to be accurate while denying the narratives that weren't.

Then yes, you have not only been 100% right on the pandemic... you're perfect on everything that has ever happened aren't you?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

So you retroactively state you believed all of the right wing narrative that might turn out to be accurate while denying the narratives that weren't.

Then yes, you have not only been 100% right on the pandemic... you're perfect on everything that has ever happened aren't you?

He is very wise.

 

[T.M.P.]

I have seen no indication that the period of natural immunity will be shorter than that of vaccinated immunity....I believe the opposite is more likely true.

lol ............

 

[T.M.P.]

Not because anyone told me to..

right either you got lucky based on whim or you're Nostradumbass reborn.

 

[outside shooter]

Could be wrong......you guys all sound alike. Did you read the articles I posted....interesting, right?

I read or are least skimmed every link. Nice studies on immunity following infection. It works. Yeah!

What you cannot seem to grasp is that none of that data DIRECTLY COMPARES THE IMMUNITY that you get from infection with that you get solely from vaccination. Maybe that comparison cannot yet be made, since BOTH are effective.

But there are secondary MARKERS for immunity, namely measuring antibody levels. That has been done, and vaccinated people have higher levels of neutralizing antibodies than unvaccinated but previously infected persons, at the same time points.

Will the B cell response also be more robust? There is no reason that it wouldn't be. It's a smooth handoff, as your antibodies deliver a hearty high five to your emerging B cells.

Maybe they will be the same. Maybe protection after infection will depend on how bad your got it, your max viral load.

But there is no sensible reason why vaccinated immunity would be weaker/less robust than immunity following infection, in particular, following a mild case.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I read or are least skimmed every link. Nice studies on immunity following infection. It works. Yeah!

What you cannot seem to grasp is that none of that data DIRECTLY COMPARES THE IMMUNITY that you get from infection with that you get solely from vaccination. Maybe that comparison cannot yet be made, since BOTH are effective.

But there are secondary MARKERS for immunity, namely measuring antibody levels. That has been done, and vaccinated people have higher levels of neutralizing antibodies than unvaccinated but previously infected persons, at the same time points.

Will the B cell response also be more robust? There is no reason that it wouldn't be. It's a smooth handoff, as your antibodies deliver a hearty high five to your emerging B cells.

Maybe they will be the same. Maybe protection after infection will depend on how bad your got it, your max viral load.

But there is no sensible reason why vaccinated immunity would be weaker/less robust than immunity following infection, in particular, following a mild case.

I read or are least skimmed every link. Nice studies on immunity following infection. It works. Yeah!

What you cannot seem to grasp is that none of that data DIRECTLY COMPARES THE IMMUNITY that you get from infection with that you get solely from vaccination. Maybe that comparison cannot yet be made, since BOTH are effective.

But there are secondary MARKERS for immunity, namely measuring antibody levels. That has been done, and vaccinated people have higher levels of neutralizing antibodies than unvaccinated but previously infected persons, at the same time points.

Will the B cell response also be more robust? There is no reason that it wouldn't be. It's a smooth handoff, as your antibodies deliver a hearty high five to your emerging B cells.

Maybe they will be the same. Maybe protection after infection will depend on how bad your got it, your max viral load.

But there is no sensible reason why vaccinated immunity would be weaker/less robust than immunity following infection, in particular, following a mild case.

I grasped that quite well, thanks.

Both appear to be very effective. In the instance of the Cleveland Clinic study, there had not been 1 reinfection in 1300 cases of natural immunity. You can't be more effective than 0%. There was no distinction found between more mild and more robust cases. The Science Daily article states that "The immune system has a more efficient way of dealing with pathogens....." and goes on to explain why.

It looks like the big potential difference is in durability. The natural immunity may last longer. The NIH study stated "...Our studies showed that the natural infection induced a strong response, and this study now shows that the responses last...We are hopeful that a similar pattern of responses lasting over time will also emerge for the vaccine-induced responses". The Aungst article states "...Some experts think natural immunity might last for several years". The Live Science article is titled "Could Covid-19 immunity last decades"? One article, speaking of vaccine immunity, states that "We practically know nothing about the durability of those responses". Now, I understand that nobody presently knows the duration of either, but...........if the natural immunity lasts 10 years, and the vaccines 1, which is safer & more effective, Mr. Science Guy?

Now I want to be clear, before your idiot friends weigh in, that people should not make any assumptions about having natural immunity.....I am only speaking of documented covid survivors.

There have been 4800+ deaths reported to the CDC surrounding these vaccines to date. I remember reading that most of these deaths occurred with a few days after vaccination. If only 20% were in fact covid-related, that would be 960. I've talked with many other people who have gotten one of the vaccines. There have been a lot of very weird and/or dramatic reactions. I think that 960 would be realistic..

 

[mushroomgod_1]

So you retroactively state you believed all of the right wing narrative that might turn out to be accurate while denying the narratives that weren't.

Then yes, you have not only been 100% right on the pandemic... you're perfect on everything that has ever happened aren't you?

I thought lock downs would have some positive effects, but probably not enough to offset the negatives. Now it looks like they had little or no positive effect.

I thought masks would prove to be more effective than they proved to be, although I always thought wearing them outdoors when not in immediate and somewhat prolonged contact was idiotic.

At least I was right more often than Fauci.