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Chuck Schumer's incoherent opposition to the Iran deal

Rockfish1

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Harry Reid's likely replacement has announced that he'll vote to disapprove the Iran deal. James Fallows thinks this means that Schumer has concluded that there's enough support for the deal that he can safely vote against it. Maybe so. But although Schumer claims that he's reached this decision "after deep study, careful thought and considerable soul-searching," his stated basis for opposing the deal makes no sense.

Schumer argues that we’ll be worse off with the deal than without it. The agreement would allow Iran to resume its nuclear program in 15 years, and by then Iran will have benefitted from the lifting of sanctions, he argues. In addition, he contends that the additional revenue Iran will gain from the lifting of sanctions will enable Iran to be even more of a bad actor than it already is.

There are two main problems with this. First, the consequences Schumer fears will absolutely come about if we kill the deal. That’s because the sanctions regime will fall apart, and we’ll get nothing for it. As national security analyst Graham Allison explains:

At this point, a “better deal” is an illusion. One can always imagine a better deal. But if the U.S. Congress rejects this agreement and proposes sending Secretary of State John Kerry back to the negotiating table, Kerry will most likely find no one else there. Partners who have negotiated and compromised over 20 months to achieve this accord will conclude that the U.S. government is incapable of making agreements. The international coalition will splinter and the sanctions regime will collapse, with Russia and China leading the way, but with France and Germany not far behind. The United States will have demonstrated that D.C. is in fact an acronym for Dysfunctional Capital. In comparison, Iran will appear to be the adult in this paring.​

If Congress rejects the deal, Iran will be free to pursue its nuclear ambitions not 15 years from now but right away, and after the sanctions collapse it will regain most of the revenue it’s now losing. Nor will Iran’s leaders have any incentive to moderate their future behavior. We will have proven to them that the hardliners were right about us – that we’re implacably opposed to the existence of the current regime and we can’t be dealt with even when it’s in our interest to make a deal. Schumer claims he doesn’t favor war with Iran, but his preferred policy would make such a war much more likely.

Second, Schumer’s focus on the non-nuclear aspects of the deal shows that he doesn’t just oppose this deal, he opposes any conceivable deal. If we can’t countenance a deal that gives Iran relief from sanctions, then no deal is possible. Of course Iran will gain advantages from this deal. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made the agreement. There’s no way around this.

I have yet to see any argument against the Iran deal that doesn’t suffer from these same fatal flaws. Those who oppose the deal do so without regard to the real world alternatives to this deal, all of which are much worse than the deal itself. No matter how skillfully the nouns and verbs are assembled, the argument is no more sophisticated than “Iran = Bad.” The deal's opponents don't even engage the crucial question: What's your alternative?

It’s appalling to see ostensibly serious people advancing transparently vacuous arguments on such an important question. Too many of us become irrational when our own national security needs conflict with the Likud Party's view of Israel's national security needs.
 
Can you point me to where it shows that the current sanctions will colllapse if the U.S. doesn't approve this deal?
 
Can you point me to where it shows that the current sanctions will colllapse if the U.S. doesn't approve this deal?
I don't know what the "it" is in your question, but try just thinking about this.

The whole point of the sanctions regime was to bring Iran to the negotiating table. Europe, Russia, and China all agreed that they would forego the revenue from lucrative trade with Iran to induce Iran to make a deal on its nuclear program. This worked. Iran came to the table and made a deal that was acceptable to Europe, Russia, and China -- a deal that was approved 15-0 by the UN Security Council. From the perspective of our negotiating partners -- indeed, from the perspective of the rest of the world -- sanctions have succeeded.

If Congress kills the deal, then this proves that the Iranian hardliners were right about us -- that we can't be dealt with even when it's in our interest to make a deal. From the perspective of Europe, Russia, and China, it would make no sense to continue foregoing trade revenue if we won't accept what they regard as a good deal. They won't continue to sanction Iran (and sacrifice trade revenue) to no purpose. How is this not obvious?
 
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Harry Reid's likely replacement has announced that he'll vote to disapprove the Iran deal. James Fallows thinks this means that Schumer has concluded that there's enough support for the deal that he can safely vote against it. Maybe so. But although Schumer claims that he's reached this decision "after deep study, careful thought and considerable soul-searching," his stated basis for opposing the deal makes no sense.

Schumer argues that we’ll be worse off with the deal than without it. The agreement would allow Iran to resume its nuclear program in 15 years, and by then Iran will have benefitted from the lifting of sanctions, he argues. In addition, he contends that the additional revenue Iran will gain from the lifting of sanctions will enable Iran to be even more of a bad actor than it already is.

There are two main problems with this. First, the consequences Schumer fears will absolutely come about if we kill the deal. That’s because the sanctions regime will fall apart, and we’ll get nothing for it. As national security analyst Graham Allison explains:

At this point, a “better deal” is an illusion. One can always imagine a better deal. But if the U.S. Congress rejects this agreement and proposes sending Secretary of State John Kerry back to the negotiating table, Kerry will most likely find no one else there. Partners who have negotiated and compromised over 20 months to achieve this accord will conclude that the U.S. government is incapable of making agreements. The international coalition will splinter and the sanctions regime will collapse, with Russia and China leading the way, but with France and Germany not far behind. The United States will have demonstrated that D.C. is in fact an acronym for Dysfunctional Capital. In comparison, Iran will appear to be the adult in this paring.​

If Congress rejects the deal, Iran will be free to pursue its nuclear ambitions not 15 years from now but right away, and after the sanctions collapse it will regain most of the revenue it’s now losing. Nor will Iran’s leaders have any incentive to moderate their future behavior. We will have proven to them that the hardliners were right about us – that we’re implacably opposed to the existence of the current regime and we can’t be dealt with even when it’s in our interest to make a deal. Schumer claims he doesn’t favor war with Iran, but his preferred policy would make such a war much more likely.

Second, Schumer’s focus on the non-nuclear aspects of the deal shows that he doesn’t just oppose this deal, he opposes any conceivable deal. If we can’t countenance a deal that gives Iran relief from sanctions, then no deal is possible. Of course Iran will gain advantages from this deal. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made the agreement. There’s no way around this.

I have yet to see any argument against the Iran deal that doesn’t suffer from these same fatal flaws. Those who oppose the deal do so without regard to the real world alternatives to this deal, all of which are much worse than the deal itself. No matter how skillfully the nouns and verbs are assembled, the argument is no more sophisticated than “Iran = Bad.” The deal's opponents don't even engage the crucial question: What's your alternative?

It’s appalling to see ostensibly serious people advancing transparently vacuous arguments on such an important question. Too many of us become irrational when our own national security needs conflict with the Likud Party's view of Israel's national security needs.
The worst part of the deal and reason many are against it is the immediate lifting of sanctions. Iran can pull out of the agreement as soon as their frozen assets are released for any reason and bank that Russia and China will block attempts to reinstate the sanctions.

This is a great deal for Iran. They get their assets, markets for oil sales, and can continue development of long range missiles. They can continue the construction of nuclear bombs at any time. All they have to do is claim we broke the agreement.

We should not have agreed to this deal without some indication from Congress that they would approve. Failure to pass looks bad that our government isn't communicating.

This is what people meant that a bad deal is worse than no deal.
 
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Harry Reid's likely replacement has announced that he'll vote to disapprove the Iran deal. James Fallows thinks this means that Schumer has concluded that there's enough support for the deal that he can safely vote against it. Maybe so. But although Schumer claims that he's reached this decision "after deep study, careful thought and considerable soul-searching," his stated basis for opposing the deal makes no sense.

Schumer argues that we’ll be worse off with the deal than without it. The agreement would allow Iran to resume its nuclear program in 15 years, and by then Iran will have benefitted from the lifting of sanctions, he argues. In addition, he contends that the additional revenue Iran will gain from the lifting of sanctions will enable Iran to be even more of a bad actor than it already is.

There are two main problems with this. First, the consequences Schumer fears will absolutely come about if we kill the deal. That’s because the sanctions regime will fall apart, and we’ll get nothing for it. As national security analyst Graham Allison explains:

At this point, a “better deal” is an illusion. One can always imagine a better deal. But if the U.S. Congress rejects this agreement and proposes sending Secretary of State John Kerry back to the negotiating table, Kerry will most likely find no one else there. Partners who have negotiated and compromised over 20 months to achieve this accord will conclude that the U.S. government is incapable of making agreements. The international coalition will splinter and the sanctions regime will collapse, with Russia and China leading the way, but with France and Germany not far behind. The United States will have demonstrated that D.C. is in fact an acronym for Dysfunctional Capital. In comparison, Iran will appear to be the adult in this paring.​

If Congress rejects the deal, Iran will be free to pursue its nuclear ambitions not 15 years from now but right away, and after the sanctions collapse it will regain most of the revenue it’s now losing. Nor will Iran’s leaders have any incentive to moderate their future behavior. We will have proven to them that the hardliners were right about us – that we’re implacably opposed to the existence of the current regime and we can’t be dealt with even when it’s in our interest to make a deal. Schumer claims he doesn’t favor war with Iran, but his preferred policy would make such a war much more likely.

Second, Schumer’s focus on the non-nuclear aspects of the deal shows that he doesn’t just oppose this deal, he opposes any conceivable deal. If we can’t countenance a deal that gives Iran relief from sanctions, then no deal is possible. Of course Iran will gain advantages from this deal. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made the agreement. There’s no way around this.

I have yet to see any argument against the Iran deal that doesn’t suffer from these same fatal flaws. Those who oppose the deal do so without regard to the real world alternatives to this deal, all of which are much worse than the deal itself. No matter how skillfully the nouns and verbs are assembled, the argument is no more sophisticated than “Iran = Bad.” The deal's opponents don't even engage the crucial question: What's your alternative?

It’s appalling to see ostensibly serious people advancing transparently vacuous arguments on such an important question. Too many of us become irrational when our own national security needs conflict with the Likud Party's view of Israel's national security needs.

I'm not sure what Chuck's real reasons are, but you know republicans will reject the deal anyways for two reasons. One reason is the same reason they always reject stuff. The other is more nefarious. The first reason is obvious, it's President Obama. The second is akin to disaster capitalism. Republicans are looking for a reason to go to war. That whole town hall on Fixed News the other night was who can get us to war the fastest and who talks to God. They want the deal to not go through and then they want Iran to get a bomb so they can "Look!!! We told you we should have just invaded to begin with!!!"

They are well versed in disaster capitalism. Look at Kansas. We all know republicans want schools privatized. Brownback cut taxes for the rich and the resulting budget deficits caused him to cut from that greedy educational system. Well, he f*cked that up so much that now you don't even have to be a certified teacher to teach in Kansas. They've run all the teachers off. Now, when the educational system in Kansas completely collapses, due to republican policies screwing it up, they'll say "Look!!! We told you we should have privatized schools!!!"

We'll see what they do next October. That'll be interesting. They've been screaming for years that social security is going broke. When the new congress came in they made a new rule regarding the social security fund. It's been routine that money is moved back and forth from the social security retirement benefits trust to the social security disabilities fund. A new rule republicans put in place will make it almost impossible to do the routine funds transfer that's happened 11 times in the past. So, the disability fund is projected to come up short in October next year, just in time for the election. They've made sure it will break so they can scream "Look!!! We told you we should have privatized social security!!!"

And before anyone decides to be smart and say "you say it's coming up short, that's going broke LOL!!!" Think of it like this. You have two checking accounts. Your paycheck is split 80/20 or 85/15 or whatever between the two accounts. The bigger account is strictly for mortgage payments and home maintenance costs. The second is for utilities. You make enough money to pay both, but sometimes you don't quite get enough money in the utilities account so you move money from the mortgage account to cover it because the mortgage account has more than enough. It's a routine funds transfer.
 
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The worst part of the deal and reason many are against it is the immediate lifting of sanctions. Iran can pull out of the agreement as soon as their frozen assets are released for any reason and bank that Russia and China will block attempts to reinstate the sanctions.

This is a great deal for Iran. They get their assets, markets for oil sales, and can continue development of long range missiles. They can continue the construction of nuclear bombs at any time. All they have to do is claim we broke the agreement.

We should not have agreed to this deal without some indication from Congress that they would approve. Failure to pass looks bad that our government isn't communicating.

This is what people meant that a bad deal is worse than no deal.
You are flat dead wrong about the terms of the deal, and you failed to engage with any of the points I made.
 
Just do the deal ... they will get the bomb sooner or later. I hope it pushes farther into the future. I don't get it at all. Isreal can have the bomb but Iran can't. WTF? North Korea has it and they know they can't use it.
 
Can you point me to where it shows that the current sanctions will colllapse if the U.S. doesn't approve this deal?
Russia is dealing with them now, the QUDS commander flew to Russia today in violation of UN sanctions. Russia is not going to cooperate, well, not without us handing them Ukraine. I think it is obvious Russia will deal with Iran to punish us for Ukraine.

But let me ask this, will the sanctions prevent Iran from the bomb? I have not heard anyone suggest it will. Then let me ask, name two times sanctions forced a country to alter a major goal in a diametrically opposite direction? I used to fully buy into sanctions, but they do not work (see 50+ years of a Castro in power).

We like sanctions because we like to believe the miscreants are being punished. The truth is the leadership typically does fine, the average people suffer. And the behavior is not changed.
 
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Russia is dealing with them now, the QUDS commander flew to Russia today in violation of UN sanctions. Russia is not going to cooperate, well, not without us handing them Ukraine. I think it is obvious Russia will deal with Iran to punish us for Ukraine.

But let me ask this, will the sanctions prevent Iran from the bomb? I have not heard anyone suggest it will. Then let me ask, name two times sanctions forced a country to alter a major goal in a diametrically opposite direction? I used to fully buy into sanctions, but they do not work (see 50+ years of a Castro in power).

We like sanctions because we like to believe the miscreants are being punished. The truth is the leadership typically does fine, the average people suffer. And the behavior is not changed.

Your last paragraph is spot on. Plus, it makes the average people hate us for the sanctions, not their leaders. It's like with corporations here. They've made poor people hate other poor people instead of the corporations who are actually the ones f*cking them over.
 
Harry Reid's likely replacement has announced that he'll vote to disapprove the Iran deal. James Fallows thinks this means that Schumer has concluded that there's enough support for the deal that he can safely vote against it. Maybe so. But although Schumer claims that he's reached this decision "after deep study, careful thought and considerable soul-searching," his stated basis for opposing the deal makes no sense.

Schumer argues that we’ll be worse off with the deal than without it. The agreement would allow Iran to resume its nuclear program in 15 years, and by then Iran will have benefitted from the lifting of sanctions, he argues. In addition, he contends that the additional revenue Iran will gain from the lifting of sanctions will enable Iran to be even more of a bad actor than it already is.

There are two main problems with this. First, the consequences Schumer fears will absolutely come about if we kill the deal. That’s because the sanctions regime will fall apart, and we’ll get nothing for it. As national security analyst Graham Allison explains:

At this point, a “better deal” is an illusion. One can always imagine a better deal. But if the U.S. Congress rejects this agreement and proposes sending Secretary of State John Kerry back to the negotiating table, Kerry will most likely find no one else there. Partners who have negotiated and compromised over 20 months to achieve this accord will conclude that the U.S. government is incapable of making agreements. The international coalition will splinter and the sanctions regime will collapse, with Russia and China leading the way, but with France and Germany not far behind. The United States will have demonstrated that D.C. is in fact an acronym for Dysfunctional Capital. In comparison, Iran will appear to be the adult in this paring.​

If Congress rejects the deal, Iran will be free to pursue its nuclear ambitions not 15 years from now but right away, and after the sanctions collapse it will regain most of the revenue it’s now losing. Nor will Iran’s leaders have any incentive to moderate their future behavior. We will have proven to them that the hardliners were right about us – that we’re implacably opposed to the existence of the current regime and we can’t be dealt with even when it’s in our interest to make a deal. Schumer claims he doesn’t favor war with Iran, but his preferred policy would make such a war much more likely.

Second, Schumer’s focus on the non-nuclear aspects of the deal shows that he doesn’t just oppose this deal, he opposes any conceivable deal. If we can’t countenance a deal that gives Iran relief from sanctions, then no deal is possible. Of course Iran will gain advantages from this deal. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made the agreement. There’s no way around this.

I have yet to see any argument against the Iran deal that doesn’t suffer from these same fatal flaws. Those who oppose the deal do so without regard to the real world alternatives to this deal, all of which are much worse than the deal itself. No matter how skillfully the nouns and verbs are assembled, the argument is no more sophisticated than “Iran = Bad.” The deal's opponents don't even engage the crucial question: What's your alternative?

It’s appalling to see ostensibly serious people advancing transparently vacuous arguments on such an important question. Too many of us become irrational when our own national security needs conflict with the Likud Party's view of Israel's national security needs.

The biggest beneficiary of the sanctions has been the regime. They have all become stinking rich due to sanctions. Liberal businessmen became bankrupt as a result of the sanctions. The sanctions were awful and a loser proposal.
 
Russia is dealing with them now, the QUDS commander flew to Russia today in violation of UN sanctions. Russia is not going to cooperate, well, not without us handing them Ukraine. I think it is obvious Russia will deal with Iran to punish us for Ukraine.
Iran and Russia are both bad actors, but I think Russia and China have been surprisingly cooperative in this process, despite Russia allowing travel by Qassem Soleimani. They're both signatories to the agreement, after all. I think your point underscores mine, though: Who imagines that the sanctions regime would remain in effect if Congress torpedoed the deal?
 
The biggest beneficiary of the sanctions has been the regime. They have all become stinking rich due to sanctions. Liberal businessmen became bankrupt as a result of the sanctions. The sanctions were awful and a loser proposal.
That's as maybe, but my point remains that the sanctions can't be sustained indefinitely, and the sanctions regime would collapse if Congress vetoed the deal. This would leave Iran free to do as it pleased, triggering all of the adverse consequences that opponents of the deal claim to worry about.
 
But let me ask this, will the sanctions prevent Iran from the bomb? I have not heard anyone suggest it will. Then let me ask, name two times sanctions forced a country to alter a major goal in a diametrically opposite direction? I used to fully buy into sanctions, but they do not work (see 50+ years of a Castro in power).
I wonder if Iran is as committed to getting the bomb as we assume. After all, Iran has been a year away for many years, but they keep not building one. Maybe all they really want is the capacity to build one.

In the runup to the Iraq War, all of us were confident that Saddam had at least chemical and biological weapons. It made no sense to us that Saddam would risk a US invasion if he didn't have them.

Afterwards it turned out that Saddam had miscalculated. Until it was too late, he didn't believe we'd actually invade. His real fears related to Iran and his own restive Kurdish population, and he was bluffing them with WMDs he didn't have. We misread the situation because we saw it through our eyes, not his.

Our confidence that we understand the Iranian regime's intentions is misplaced.
 
Harry Reid's likely replacement has announced that he'll vote to disapprove the Iran deal. James Fallows thinks this means that Schumer has concluded that there's enough support for the deal that he can safely vote against it. Maybe so. But although Schumer claims that he's reached this decision "after deep study, careful thought and considerable soul-searching," his stated basis for opposing the deal makes no sense.

Schumer argues that we’ll be worse off with the deal than without it. The agreement would allow Iran to resume its nuclear program in 15 years, and by then Iran will have benefitted from the lifting of sanctions, he argues. In addition, he contends that the additional revenue Iran will gain from the lifting of sanctions will enable Iran to be even more of a bad actor than it already is.

There are two main problems with this. First, the consequences Schumer fears will absolutely come about if we kill the deal. That’s because the sanctions regime will fall apart, and we’ll get nothing for it. As national security analyst Graham Allison explains:

At this point, a “better deal” is an illusion. One can always imagine a better deal. But if the U.S. Congress rejects this agreement and proposes sending Secretary of State John Kerry back to the negotiating table, Kerry will most likely find no one else there. Partners who have negotiated and compromised over 20 months to achieve this accord will conclude that the U.S. government is incapable of making agreements. The international coalition will splinter and the sanctions regime will collapse, with Russia and China leading the way, but with France and Germany not far behind. The United States will have demonstrated that D.C. is in fact an acronym for Dysfunctional Capital. In comparison, Iran will appear to be the adult in this paring.​

If Congress rejects the deal, Iran will be free to pursue its nuclear ambitions not 15 years from now but right away, and after the sanctions collapse it will regain most of the revenue it’s now losing. Nor will Iran’s leaders have any incentive to moderate their future behavior. We will have proven to them that the hardliners were right about us – that we’re implacably opposed to the existence of the current regime and we can’t be dealt with even when it’s in our interest to make a deal. Schumer claims he doesn’t favor war with Iran, but his preferred policy would make such a war much more likely.

Second, Schumer’s focus on the non-nuclear aspects of the deal shows that he doesn’t just oppose this deal, he opposes any conceivable deal. If we can’t countenance a deal that gives Iran relief from sanctions, then no deal is possible. Of course Iran will gain advantages from this deal. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made the agreement. There’s no way around this.

I have yet to see any argument against the Iran deal that doesn’t suffer from these same fatal flaws. Those who oppose the deal do so without regard to the real world alternatives to this deal, all of which are much worse than the deal itself. No matter how skillfully the nouns and verbs are assembled, the argument is no more sophisticated than “Iran = Bad.” The deal's opponents don't even engage the crucial question: What's your alternative? Thanks for this great analysis. I have seen no opponent of this deal offer anything better. War is certainly no option.

It’s appalling to see ostensibly serious people advancing transparently vacuous arguments on such an important question. Too many of us become irrational when our own national security needs conflict with the Likud Party's view of Israel's national security needs.
 
Great analysis. I have seen nothing that the opponents offer as being better. You are correct about the sanctions. We need the help of the other nations involved, and they are about ready to give in. War is the worst option, but it is always there, whether the deal is approved or not.
 
Voting against the deal is futile at this point

The deal is terrible. But that is no reason to vote against it. The deal cannot now be made better. Iran will have nukes no matter what congress does. The time to make the deal better deal was last year, before Obama gave up almost all the sanctions leverage with the extension deal. Obama didn't involve congress because he didn't want to be bothered with that detail, besides he has no clue about how to deal with congress. Moreover, he has no desire to deal with congress. By releasing the details of the deal and then taking it to the united nations before congress had the opportunity to even consider it is really bush league, but that is to be expected from this administration.

The deal is terrible for a number of reasons, but the most conspicuous among those is the trust we must place in Iran's disclosures and honesty. There is much talk about Iran cutting back 98% its more enriched stockpile to a lesser standard. There are many problems with that but chief among those is we have no verifiable way of knowing what the 100% amount is. Of course the inspections are a joke. The 24 day thing is minor compared to what we have agreed to to even start the 24 days. And the centrifuges? They agreed to get rid of old ones, never mind the fact that enrichment can now occur without centrifuges.

One thing I have never understood about Obama is his constant technique of advancing his policies only by confrontation, disrespect, disregard, and plain old snarkiness with those who disagree with him. This deal is no exception. He even lied about it. The "death to America" does not come form Iranian dissidents, it came directly from those with whom Obama negotiated and made this deal. Obama is part of the "common cause" not the congressional opposition.

Obama-Partisan-copy.jpg
 
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Voting against the deal is futile at this point

The deal is terrible. But that is no reason to vote against it. The deal cannot now be made better. Iran will have nukes no matter what congress does. The time to make the deal better deal was last year, before Obama gave up almost all the sanctions leverage with the extension deal. Obama didn't involve congress because he didn't want to be bothered with that detail, besides he has no clue about how to deal with congress. Moreover, he has no desire to deal with congress. By releasing the details of the deal and then taking it to the united nations before congress had the opportunity to even consider it is really bush league, but that is to be expected from this administration.

The deal is terrible for a number of reasons, but the most conspicuous among those is the trust we must place in Iran's disclosures and honesty. There is much talk about Iran cutting back 98% its more enriched stockpile to a lesser standard. There are many problems with that but chief among those is we have no verifiable way of knowing what the 100% amount is. Of course the inspections are a joke. The 24 day thing is minor compared to what we have agreed to to even start the 24 days. And the centrifuges? They agreed to get rid of old ones, never mind the fact that enrichment can now occur without centrifuges.

One thing I have never understood about Obama is his constant technique of advancing his policies only by confrontation, disrespect, disregard, and plain old snarkiness with those who disagree with him. This deal is no exception. He even lied about it. The "death to America" does not come form Iranian dissidents, it came directly from those with whom Obama negotiated and made this deal. Obama is part of the "common cause" not the congressional opposition.

Obama-Partisan-copy.jpg
Shorter CO. Hoosier: "Speaking of the Iran deal, Obama sucks."
 
That's as maybe, but my point remains that the sanctions can't be sustained indefinitely, and the sanctions regime would collapse if Congress vetoed the deal. This would leave Iran free to do as it pleased, triggering all of the adverse consequences that opponents of the deal claim to worry about.

The Sanctions regime is already collapsing. If we veto the deal it somply means we will lose out on all business in Iran while others benefit. I'm in fabor of the full and immediate restoration of diplomatic ties.

About bomb making...who the hell knows what they are building in undeground bunkers. I don't think the UN inspections are rigorous.
 
Shorter CO. Hoosier: "Speaking of the Iran deal, Obama sucks."

Actually I agree

This negotiation with Iran again exposed all the well known Obama flaws

  • He had no bold strategic vision as he continually backed away from most points he said were important
  • He has no ability to negotiate as he took important leverage off of the table early in the process
  • He has an insatiable appetite for self-aggrandizement as the agreement is mostly a resume enhancer and not a substantive diplomatic achievement
  • His thin skin prevented him from dealing with opposition on the domestic front during the process
  • And he once again showed us his jr. high mentality with his post agreement snarkiness.
Yep, I think "obama sucks" pretty well covers it.
 
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Actually I agree

This negotiation with Iran again exposed all the well known Obama flaws

  • He had no bold strategic vision as he continually backed away from most points he said were important
  • He has no ability to negotiate as he took important leverage off of the table early in the process
  • He has an insatiable appetite for self-aggrandizement as the agreement is mostly a resume enhancer and not a substantive diplomatic achievement
  • His thin skin prevented him from dealing with opposition on the domestic front during the process
  • And he once again showed us his jr. high mentality with his post agreement snarkiness.
Yep, I think "obama sucks" pretty well covers it.

"Opposition on the domestic front"??? He's been dealing with that from idiotic republican ideologues since, oh, January 20th, 2008. It started a little after 12 noon that day.
 
Yep, I think "obama sucks" pretty well covers it.
It's no surprise you think so. That seems to be the only "thought" you have. It relieves you from actually thinking, as your lazy, shoddy, unsourced posts routinely illustrate.
 
But true.
No, it's just stupid. My OP had nothing to do with Obama. Instead it focused on the merits of the arguments made by those (like Chuck Schumer) who oppose the Iran deal. CO.'s "Obama sucks" response ignored all of that. Then you chimed in with more of the content-free ankle biting that largely constitutes what you do here. If you can't add anything of value, feel free to piss off.
 
That's as maybe, but my point remains that the sanctions can't be sustained indefinitely, and the sanctions regime would collapse if Congress vetoed the deal. This would leave Iran free to do as it pleased, triggering all of the adverse consequences that opponents of the deal claim to worry about.

Right. People who say we could have gotten a ton more are ignoring the fact that Russia & China were part of the negotiations and wanted to end the sanctions.

The idea that we could have just held out and Khamenei would have magically renounced funding Hamas and Hezbollah and made nice with Israel is completely unrealistic. Iran's economy sucked but they weren't starving to death over there.
 
Right. People who say we could have gotten a ton more are ignoring the fact that Russia & China were part of the negotiations and wanted to end the sanctions.

The idea that we could have just held out and Khamenei would have magically renounced funding Hamas and Hezbollah and made nice with Israel is completely unrealistic. Iran's economy sucked but they weren't starving to death over there.
That's right. Sanctions can't be effective without collective action, but collective action requires compromises within the coalition. Opponents of the Iran deal won't grapple with either the real world limitations on American power or the real world alternatives to the current deal.
 
No, it's just stupid. My OP had nothing to do with Obama. Instead it focused on the merits of the arguments made by those (like Chuck Schumer) who oppose the Iran deal. CO.'s "Obama sucks" response ignored all of that. Then you chimed in with more of the content-free ankle biting that largely constitutes what you do here. If you can't add anything of value, feel free to piss off.
No, it's just stupid. My OP had nothing to do with Obama. Instead it focused on the merits of the arguments made by those (like Chuck Schumer) who oppose the Iran deal. CO.'s "Obama sucks" response ignored all of that. Then you chimed in with more of the content-free ankle biting that largely constitutes what you do here. If you can't add anything of value, feel free to piss off.
CoH did respond to your post...you just didn't like the response. Talking about content-free ankle biting....that is exactly what all of your "Shorter......." is. If that is all you can do when someone disagrees with you then you can feel free to piss off. You act as though we had to make a deal with Iran and that any deal is better than no deal. We have no good choices when dealing with them but I'm not on the side of just making a deal for the sake of having a deal. I don't think Obama has any idea of how to negotiate with anyone let alone Iran. However, I do agree with your comment about Schumer...he's only voting against it because he thinks it will pass and it's probably a good political move for him to vote against it.
 
CoH did respond to your post...you just didn't like the response.
CO.'s post responded to none of the points I made. It just criticized Obama. I suggest you read with greater attention to content. Perhaps that will help you to post with greater attention to content.
 
CO.'s post responded to none of the points I made. It just criticized Obama. I suggest you read with greater attention to content. Perhaps that will help you to post with greater attention to content.
That is really quite funny coming from a guy who rants against Republicans all the time when they have nothing to do with the post you are replying to
 
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