ADVERTISEMENT

Chicken or egg

Marvin the Martian

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Sep 4, 2001
37,269
23,804
113
The usual point many conservatives make is that people are poor because they make bad decisions. What if this is reversed, what if being poor causes bad decisions?

This link discusses two studies suggesting that poverty makes people make poor decisions. It appears concerns about food, housing, etc actually lower one's IQ.

Not covered, but a personal question, I wonder if this is evolutionary. Maybe evolution has rewarded beings that focus on surviving tomorrow over pontificating over life's mysteries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: meridian
The usual point many conservatives make is that people are poor because they make bad decisions. What if this is reversed, what if being poor causes bad decisions?

This link discusses two studies suggesting that poverty makes people make poor decisions. It appears concerns about food, housing, etc actually lower one's IQ.

Not covered, but a personal question, I wonder if this is evolutionary. Maybe evolution has rewarded beings that focus on surviving tomorrow over pontificating over life's mysteries.

Not much of a longitudinal study though.

Conversely, there is much evidence of old money being gone by the third generation with the exception of the majority of original 400s (richest families) of New York.
 
The usual point many conservatives make is that people are poor because they make bad decisions. What if this is reversed, what if being poor causes bad decisions?

This link discusses two studies suggesting that poverty makes people make poor decisions. It appears concerns about food, housing, etc actually lower one's IQ.

Not covered, but a personal question, I wonder if this is evolutionary. Maybe evolution has rewarded beings that focus on surviving tomorrow over pontificating over life's mysteries.
They went to the mall looking for shoppers to survey. I'm guessing they did not capture much data from the bottom quintile.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamieDimonsBalls
The usual point many conservatives make is that people are poor because they make bad decisions. What if this is reversed, what if being poor causes bad decisions?

This link discusses two studies suggesting that poverty makes people make poor decisions. It appears concerns about food, housing, etc actually lower one's IQ.

Not covered, but a personal question, I wonder if this is evolutionary. Maybe evolution has rewarded beings that focus on surviving tomorrow over pontificating over life's mysteries.
A pastor once asked me whether I thought that the gospels were for rich people. I'd not thought about it, nor have I thought about it much since then other than to put a marker in the back of my brain to take a look at - and maybe even formally study - whether a lot of Jesus' teachings were/are about "higher" levels of thinking, with a more long-term, "higher" purpose focus than the hand-to-mouth thinking that a lot of poor people get stuck in.

JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy spends a fair amount of space on new habits he formed once he left his family, got into the military, then college, and then an Ivy League law school. At each new environment he noted significant changes in the habits of people successfully navigating those different environments, and had to learn new habits to succeed in them. For example, the habits needed to excel in high school were different than those needed to succeed in college, which were different yet from those needed to succeed in law school and then again from those needed to be successful in a law practice, and so on.

My sense is that certain habits help folks survive day-to-day, while other habits can do that while also providing a different trajectory for one's life. Other habits - including the habits of addiction - can destroy one's ability to survive day-to-day and provide a trajectory towards an early, even fast, death. While the support that wealth provides can help with establishing good habits, that by no means is a given . . . there are many, many lives destroyed when the life purpose becomes the wealth rather than the life purpose being the purpose of the wealth.

So my sense is that the perspective needed to identify the difference the habits that successful people have can be obtained whether one is wealthy or poor . . . but it's more accessible when one's environment is filled with a high percentage of people with those habits.

BTW, my suspicion is that if I ever do the study of the gospels I mentioned, an awful lot of Jesus's teachings will constitute this "higher" level thinking, and building habits based on that type of thinking rather than hand-to-mouth habits. Hillbilly Elegy touches on this regarding several topics, one of which is the diminishment of "honor" - fighting someone over insult to self, family or tribe, for example - as the basis for decision-making. Another example Vance cites regarding a related topic is not going into debt to have a "big" Christmas, to "demonstrate" how much one loves one's family.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill4411 and NPT
A pastor once asked me whether I thought that the gospels were for rich people. I'd not thought about it, nor have I thought about it much since then other than to put a marker in the back of my brain to take a look at - and maybe even formally study - whether a lot of Jesus' teachings were/are about "higher" levels of thinking, with a more long-term, "higher" purpose focus than the hand-to-mouth thinking that a lot of poor people get stuck in.

JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy spends a fair amount of space on new habits he formed once he left his family, got into the military, then college, and then an Ivy League law school. At each new environment he noted significant changes in the habits of people successfully navigating those different environments, and had to learn new habits to succeed in them. For example, the habits needed to excel in high school were different than those needed to succeed in college, which were different yet from those needed to succeed in law school and then again from those needed to be successful in a law practice, and so on.

My sense is that certain habits help folks survive day-to-day, while other habits can do that while also providing a different trajectory for one's life. Other habits - including the habits of addiction - can destroy one's ability to survive day-to-day and provide a trajectory towards an early, even fast, death. While the support that wealth provides can help with establishing good habits, that by no means is a given . . . there are many, many lives destroyed when the life purpose becomes the wealth rather than the life purpose being the purpose of the wealth.

So my sense is that the perspective needed to identify the difference the habits that successful people have can be obtained whether one is wealthy or poor . . . but it's more accessible when one's environment is filled with a high percentage of people with those habits.

BTW, my suspicion is that if I ever do the study of the gospels I mentioned, an awful lot of Jesus's teachings will constitute this "higher" level thinking, and building habits based on that type of thinking rather than hand-to-mouth habits. Hillbilly Elegy touches on this regarding several topics, one of which is the diminishment of "honor" - fighting someone over insult to self, family or tribe, for example - as the basis for decision-making. Another example Vance cites regarding a related topic is not going into debt to have a "big" Christmas, to "demonstrate" how much one loves one's family.

Good post Sope. I am glad you brought up the military, we know it can be one way out. It does not pay well, yet one has a guaranteed income. It allows one to shift to these other habits.

We know the story of young Lincoln left alone in Indiana with his sister while his dad went back to find a new wife. Lincoln hated that time. I would theorize that part of it was his naturally inquisitive mind struggled with the hand-to-mouth limitations.

I doubt a study is possible. But for most of us in the bottom 90%, I wonder how our work performance is impacted by a sudden major car repair bill or house improvement need.
 
I doubt a study is possible. But for most of us in the bottom 90%, I wonder how our work performance is impacted by a sudden major car repair bill or house improvement need.
I can't take credit for the doing a study idea; the commandant of a nearby military school (think Culver) presented a program to our church's men's breakfast how his school is teaching this "higher level" stuff in their curriculum, and it struck me at the time that some of what he was describing might have parallels in scripture.

Regarding that major car repair bill/house improvement need question . . . wouldn't the impact of that in part be dependent upon whether the person facing those bills has anticipated that something like that is likely to occur, and to plan/save for those contingencies?

We started budgeting for contingent bills when we decided we could save 6 months of car insurance in order to get the lower premiums for the less frequent payments. We set up categories of bills that could be anticipated, even if not scheduled, such as car maintenance, new tires and the like . . . and it snowballed into setting aside money even for stuff like medical co-pays and maximum out of pocket payments . . . MrsSope set up a column for hair coloring, since that's done about every 9 weeks instead of monthly, for example . . . and we set aside amounts that we don't spend, such as our summer gas bill . . . we'll set aside the excess budgeted amount in anticipation of spending it in the winter.
 
A pastor once asked me whether I thought that the gospels were for rich people. I'd not thought about it, nor have I thought about it much since then other than to put a marker in the back of my brain to take a look at - and maybe even formally study - whether a lot of Jesus' teachings were/are about "higher" levels of thinking, with a more long-term, "higher" purpose focus than the hand-to-mouth thinking that a lot of poor people get stuck in.

JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy spends a fair amount of space on new habits he formed once he left his family, got into the military, then college, and then an Ivy League law school. At each new environment he noted significant changes in the habits of people successfully navigating those different environments, and had to learn new habits to succeed in them. For example, the habits needed to excel in high school were different than those needed to succeed in college, which were different yet from those needed to succeed in law school and then again from those needed to be successful in a law practice, and so on.

My sense is that certain habits help folks survive day-to-day, while other habits can do that while also providing a different trajectory for one's life. Other habits - including the habits of addiction - can destroy one's ability to survive day-to-day and provide a trajectory towards an early, even fast, death. While the support that wealth provides can help with establishing good habits, that by no means is a given . . . there are many, many lives destroyed when the life purpose becomes the wealth rather than the life purpose being the purpose of the wealth.

So my sense is that the perspective needed to identify the difference the habits that successful people have can be obtained whether one is wealthy or poor . . . but it's more accessible when one's environment is filled with a high percentage of people with those habits.

BTW, my suspicion is that if I ever do the study of the gospels I mentioned, an awful lot of Jesus's teachings will constitute this "higher" level thinking, and building habits based on that type of thinking rather than hand-to-mouth habits. Hillbilly Elegy touches on this regarding several topics, one of which is the diminishment of "honor" - fighting someone over insult to self, family or tribe, for example - as the basis for decision-making. Another example Vance cites regarding a related topic is not going into debt to have a "big" Christmas, to "demonstrate" how much one loves one's family.
Have you read J. Gaventa's Power and Powerlessness?
 
A pastor once asked me whether I thought that the gospels were for rich people. I'd not thought about it, nor have I thought about it much since then other than to put a marker in the back of my brain to take a look at - and maybe even formally study - whether a lot of Jesus' teachings were/are about "higher" levels of thinking, with a more long-term, "higher" purpose focus than the hand-to-mouth thinking that a lot of poor people get stuck in.

JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy spends a fair amount of space on new habits he formed once he left his family, got into the military, then college, and then an Ivy League law school. At each new environment he noted significant changes in the habits of people successfully navigating those different environments, and had to learn new habits to succeed in them. For example, the habits needed to excel in high school were different than those needed to succeed in college, which were different yet from those needed to succeed in law school and then again from those needed to be successful in a law practice, and so on.

My sense is that certain habits help folks survive day-to-day, while other habits can do that while also providing a different trajectory for one's life. Other habits - including the habits of addiction - can destroy one's ability to survive day-to-day and provide a trajectory towards an early, even fast, death. While the support that wealth provides can help with establishing good habits, that by no means is a given . . . there are many, many lives destroyed when the life purpose becomes the wealth rather than the life purpose being the purpose of the wealth.

So my sense is that the perspective needed to identify the difference the habits that successful people have can be obtained whether one is wealthy or poor . . . but it's more accessible when one's environment is filled with a high percentage of people with those habits.

BTW, my suspicion is that if I ever do the study of the gospels I mentioned, an awful lot of Jesus's teachings will constitute this "higher" level thinking, and building habits based on that type of thinking rather than hand-to-mouth habits. Hillbilly Elegy touches on this regarding several topics, one of which is the diminishment of "honor" - fighting someone over insult to self, family or tribe, for example - as the basis for decision-making. Another example Vance cites regarding a related topic is not going into debt to have a "big" Christmas, to "demonstrate" how much one loves one's family.
I wish young people would get off their phones because it appears some of them have become anti social. I tell my kids to look people in the eye when you talk to them. This way they know you are connecting with them and are serious about what you say. I also tell my kids, especially my sons to shake hands. Don't do it too forcefully, and don't do it too weakly. In life you have to show some confidence for people to take you seriously. People in any economic situation can learn these kinds of cues.
 
The usual point many conservatives make is that people are poor because they make bad decisions.
I don’t believe that’s exactly the point conservatives make. I think the point is, or belief is, that the poor have opportunities to improve their lives over time if they want to take advantage of those opportunities.
Good post Sope. I am glad you brought up the military, we know it can be one way out. It does not pay well, yet one has a guaranteed income. It allows one to shift to these other habits.

We know the story of young Lincoln left alone in Indiana with his sister while his dad went back to find a new wife. Lincoln hated that time. I would theorize that part of it was his naturally inquisitive mind struggled with the hand-to-mouth limitations.

I doubt a study is possible. But for most of us in the bottom 90%, I wonder how our work performance is impacted by a sudden major car repair bill or house improvement need.
I think people underestimate (generally) what military personnel make. I know people assumed I made much less than what I really made - especially in my last 10 years or so. These are the pay rates, but it doesn't include living allowances, which are tax free, or incentive pays (like sea pay, flight pay, nuclear bonuses, etc.) which are additional pay, but is taxed. Can't forget about a very generous GI Bill for education purposes. I didn't need mine, but I was able to transfer it to my daughter. It could have paid for all of her education, but since my daughter took the six year undergraduate route and decided she should go to school in California (and COMNAVHOME - the wife agreed), it didn't pay for all of hers, but it did reduce my overall costs considerably. Not everyone that enters the military is from lower income backgrounds like I was, but for those that do come from those backgrounds, it's often a boost directly into the middle class.
 
Mark, explain CoHs "social dysfunction" as you understand it.
 
Mark, explain CoHs "social dysfunction" as you understand it.
He makes it clear. People are poor as a result of their own actions. He calls it "social dysfunction". Of course, he will dispute this.
 
Hmm, it sure seems I hear the poor life choices argument. And the corollary "if we equally divided all the money, the poor would be poor again in no time".
Well isn't what Aloha said essentially the same as what you said? If poor don't take advantage of opportunities then that is a poor choice. I can only go by what I saw growing up.There were lots of poor people around my area and we were one of the poorer ones. I went back 40 years after I had left the area and a lot of the families that were using the system when I left were still using it. There were 8 of us kids and all of us were successful... not rich but have good families and support ourselves. You would think if it was just random some of the 8 of us would be in the poor house getting welfare.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 76-1
.
Hmm, it sure seems I hear the poor life choices argument. And the corollary "if we equally divided all the money, the poor would be poor again in no time".
i do think people have responsibility for what they do with their lives of course. I think most, given average intelligence and some determination, can better their economic situation. I know it’s only my life experience, but my sister and I live far from the trailer parks we grew up in. Our economy situations have flipped completely. Most of my friends from those days have done very well in that regard as well. These things don’t happen by mere accident. They happened because of determination and taking advantage of the opportunities that come with living in this country.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 76-1 and Cajun54
I don’t believe that’s exactly the point conservatives make. I think the point is, or belief is, that the poor have opportunities to improve their lives over time if they want to take advantage of those opportunities.

I think people underestimate (generally) what military personnel make. I know people assumed I made much less than what I really made - especially in my last 10 years or so. These are the pay rates, but it doesn't include living allowances, which are tax free, or incentive pays (like sea pay, flight pay, nuclear bonuses, etc.) which are additional pay, but is taxed. Can't forget about a very generous GI Bill for education purposes. I didn't need mine, but I was able to transfer it to my daughter. It could have paid for all of her education, but since my daughter took the six year undergraduate route and decided she should go to school in California (and COMNAVHOME - the wife agreed), it didn't pay for all of hers, but it did reduce my overall costs considerably. Not everyone that enters the military is from lower income backgrounds like I was, but for those that do come from those backgrounds, it's often a boost directly into the middle class.
I forgot to include the link to military pay information: https://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/military-pay-charts.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrBing
I think most, given average intelligence and some determination, can better their economic situation. I know it’s only my life experience, but my sister and I live far from the trailer parks we grew up in.
How do you explain the situation you grew up in then? Where did your parents fall short?
 
There were lots of poor people around my area and we were one of the poorer ones. I went back 40 years after I had left the area and a lot of the families that were using the system when I left were still using it.
Same question I posed to Aloha: why were you in such poor circumstances to begin with?
 
How do you explain the situation you grew up in then? Where did your parents fall short?
My mother divorced when we were very young and had only a high school education and little money. She had gotten married at 20 and during their seven years of marriage they had been improving their economic situation like many young couples do - the divorce set her back as divorces often do. She bought a trailer with what she got from the divorce and we moved into a trailer park. She went to work and our situation improved over the years. Next trailer had a slide out, for example, and we moved it to a nicer trailer park. A couple years later we moved to a low cost apartment, then a low cost living townhouse, then she remarried and we moved to a very modest house they bought as I was nearing the end of high school. We were on our way up. And I also was on my way up.

All people start somewhere. Sometimes you experience set backs. Most of us can improve our situations. I’m doing very well these days, but the journey isn’t over yet. When I totally retire (retire retire as we retired military say) I don’t intend to have a set back. I have a few years of work left to make sure of that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 76-1
Same question I posed to Aloha: why were you in such poor circumstances to begin with?
Now that I’ve answered, do you think it’s all just luck of the draw? Do you think poor people are doomed to remaining poor unless they get lucky? Can’t people do things to improve their situations?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrBing
Now that I’ve answered, do you think it’s all just luck of the draw? Do you think poor people are doomed to remaining poor unless they get lucky? Can’t people do things to improve their situations?
Your mother seems to have had (at least) "average intelligence and some determination". Unless you're in Lake Wobegon, that doesn't cover everybody.

I just want to challenge the notion that everyone can be Horatio Alger. There are most definitely systemic sociological problems with the chronic multi-generational poor, and the tendency to label those people as dysfunctional or undeserving is bothersome to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrBing
Hmm, it sure seems I hear the poor life choices argument. And the corollary "if we equally divided all the money, the poor would be poor again in no time".
Let's take the issue of drugs and alcohol. If a person takes drugs on a regular basis and or gets drunk is it possible they are not in a position to take advantage of opportunities even if it fell into their lap? Whose fault is it that they did those things that would cause them to lose out on a chance at a better life? It's theirs. Not everyone who is poor does drugs or drinks to excess. So it can't be their class that causes it. It is their choice to partake in things that harm them.
 
Your mother seems to have had (at least) "average intelligence and some determination". Unless you're in Lake Wobegon, that doesn't cover everybody.

I just want to challenge the notion that everyone can be Horatio Alger. There are most definitely systemic sociological problems with the chronic multi-generational poor, and the tendency to label those people as dysfunctional or undeserving is bothersome to me.
My mother was a genuinely good person. She was of average intelligence and a high school graduate. She loved her kids and worked hard to take care of us. I wish I had thanked her explicitly for that before she died of complications from AIDS at 49 years of age. She contracted AIDS from tainted blood in the mid 80s, before they tested for it. They didn’t even test her for it until she was in the hospital with what was ultimately a fatal case of pneumonia. I was grateful that I could fly her to Hawaii for my wedding a few months before her death.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MrBing
My mother was a genuinely good person. She was of average intelligence and a high school graduate. She loved her kids and worked hard to take care of us.
Your mother sounds like a great lady.

Trailer parks are full of single mothers with high school educations who love their kids and work hard to take care of them, and who can barely make ends meet. A car repair or a medical issue can blow their financial lives up entirely. Some are able to get out from under, some never do. So yeah, when you live on the edge, I do think sometimes a lot of it come down to good luck or bad fortune.

Thanks for responding. My whole point was to turn the whole "I was raised poor but I bettered myself" anecdotal argument on its head. People tend to be less judgmental and disdainful of the poor when they happen to be their parents.
 
Your mother sounds like a great lady.

Trailer parks are full of single mothers with high school educations who love their kids and work hard to take care of them, and who can barely make ends meet. A car repair or a medical issue can blow their financial lives up entirely. Some are able to get out from under, some never do. So yeah, when you live on the edge, I do think sometimes a lot of it come down to good luck or bad fortune.

Thanks for responding. My whole point was to turn the whole "I was raised poor but I bettered myself" anecdotal argument on its head. People tend to be less judgmental and disdainful of the poor when they happen to be their parents.
I drive by a well kept trailer park on my way home from the base golf course and sometimes think it might be nice to sell the house and move into a nice trailer. We were poor, but I really enjoyed living in that second trailer park. Had a lot of good friends there.

There are a lot of us that have poor to not poor stories. Where you start isn’t where you have to end - unless you want to.
 
I drive by a well kept trailer park on my way home from the base golf course and sometimes think it might be nice to sell the house and move into a nice trailer. We were poor, but I really enjoyed living in that second trailer park. Had a lot of good friends there.

There are a lot of us that have poor to not poor stories. Where you start isn’t where you have to end - unless you want to.
And I’m far from disdainful of the poor. I understand their situation and I’m still very comfortable hanging with them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 76-1 and Cajun54
Same question I posed to Aloha: why were you in such poor circumstances to begin with?
I really don't know all the history of my family but I do know they grew up in a really poor area of the country. There was no good jobs around the area where they grew up but they refused to leave. There were no good jobs where I grew up either but I made up my mind to leave when I got old enough even though I loved the area. If I had stayed there I would probably still be very poor.
 
My problem with JD is he comes from the good side of the tracks but get to speak for the real poor
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...f373b3977ee_story.html?utm_term=.28fbb1f0a050

Yeah, there's a bit of an "I got mine" element to Hillbilly Elegy. Now that he's returned to Ohio to focus on the middle- and poorer classes through a nonprofit (https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...ocus-jobs-drug-crisis/IQlG2kRIQZZhnodRgNHa7M/), there's a question in my mind whether what he's doing is patronizing or authentic. At this stage it's too early to tell . . . and at this stage I have nothing but commendation for him trying what he's up to.

BTW, the stuff that I connected with in Vance's book were his personal comments, the stuff about what he experienced personally . . . I understand that he generalized some of those comments, but there was enough there that reflected a bit of my own experiences that those comments rang true enough . . .

. . . let me give you an example of what I've seen here in the southern-most Appalachians. A great grandmother sent her 5 year old great granddaughter a check for $40 as a birthday gift. Great-granny has no use for the money and she wants to be remembered by her young progeny. So granddaughter - great granddaughter's mom - says to great granddaughter "let's go shopping". Great granddaughter has no idea what $40 means, and mom keeps pointing out stuff that great granddaughter can buy . . . until the entire $40 is gone on what amounts to junk bought based on a little girl's whims egged on by a mom who has nothing else to do but spend everything that comes into her hands. A week later, the granddaughter asked her dad whether she could have a dresser . . . she didn't have one to use.

One of the things that Vance's book demonstrates (and talks about indirectly, I think) is what M. Scott Peck called "delayed gratification" in his book The Road Less Traveled. It's a skill - a habit - that's hard for anybody to learn, and harder still for folks whose lives are so filled with "have to"s that make delaying gratification almost impossible to cultivate as a habit. But Peck deems building a life based on habits of delaying gratification "the only decent way to live". I agree with Peck's comment here, to a point . . . all too often the choice becomes getting a minimal measure of satisfaction now because there is little-to-no confidence that delayed gratification won't turn into no gratification at all.

I don't know what the answer is here, but my sense is that delayed gratification, as a skill, is important for pretty much anybody and everybody. Vance touched on it - perhaps a bit inartfully, in part because of the prevailing political atmosphere - but I think Peck's treatment of it was far more direct and effective. Starting there wouldn't be a bad way to continue a conversation around what this thread is about, and around what ails the country.
 
Last edited:
"Unless you want to."

That's what grates.
Well, I know people that want to. I'm related to a couple, and it's obvious that they want to - or at least they don't want to take opportunities offered to them to improve their lives because they've turned them down. I understand that some try and don't improve due to circumstances beyond their control.
 
Well, I know people that want to. I'm related to a couple, and it's obvious that they want to - or at least they don't want to take opportunities offered to them to improve their lives because they've turned them down. I understand that some try and don't improve due to circumstances beyond their control.
I think Mark's point is that people also try and fail, not because they are faulty in any way, but simply because the economic game has losers, too, and the law of large numbers catches up with some of them. Leaning on the pull-yourself-up anecdotes is unfair to these unwitting losers.
 
Well, I know people that want to. I'm related to a couple, and it's obvious that they want to - or at least they don't want to take opportunities offered to them to improve their lives because they've turned them down. I understand that some try and don't improve due to circumstances beyond their control.
Yeah, well, you don't know everyone, so your anecdotes are only barely helpful.

I would think a lot of people have innocently lost their jobs due to automation/technology (checkout clerks at groceries; Amazon and Ebay killing brick and mortar stores). Other people have innocently lost good jobs that have left the US entirely. Others have innocently suffered both loss of employment and bad health that limits their subsequent employable. Others innocently lost their jobs after the age of 40 and then suffered rampant age discrimination (don't pooh-pooh this; everyone over 40 is at risk of losing their jobs even if the cutthroat employer calls it "restructuring" rather than "screwing you because of your age").

There surely are a lot of people whose family upbringing did not emphasize education and working because their parents, aunts and uncles and other older relatives saw no advantage in it. It is unfair to lump many groups together and proclaim they could be employed if they wanted to be.

Your post mentioned "opportunities" but the sad fact is that the only "opportunities" visible by people in many geographic areas is drug dealing, theft, fencing and other street crime. This won't change unless the legitimate "opportunities" look more apoealing than illegal "opportunities."
 
  • Like
Reactions: UncleMark
I think Mark's point is that people also try and fail, not because they are faulty in any way, but simply because the economic game has losers, too, and the law of large numbers catches up with some of them. Leaning on the pull-yourself-up anecdotes is unfair to these unwitting losers.
OK. And what is the fair way to deal with that? I think maybe keeping our "poor" level at a decent living level (like it mostly is, and far and away better than the poor levels I've seen in my travels around the world) is not a horrible way to go.
 
Yeah, well, you don't know everyone, so your anecdotes are only barely helpful.

I would think a lot of people have innocently lost their jobs due to automation/technology (checkout clerks at groceries; Amazon and Ebay killing brick and mortar stores). Other people have innocently lost good jobs that have left the US entirely. Others have innocently suffered both loss of employment and bad health that limits their subsequent employable. Others innocently lost their jobs after the age of 40 and then suffered rampant age discrimination (don't pooh-pooh this; everyone over 40 is at risk of losing their jobs even if the cutthroat employer calls it "restructuring" rather than "screwing you because of your age").

There surely are a lot of people whose family upbringing did not emphasize education and working because their parents, aunts and uncles and other older relatives saw no advantage in it. It is unfair to lump many groups together and proclaim they could be employed if they wanted to be.

Your post mentioned "opportunities" but the sad fact is that the only "opportunities" visible by people in many geographic areas is drug dealing, theft, fencing and other street crime. This won't change unless the legitimate "opportunities" look more apoealing than illegal "opportunities."
What is your proposal?

What kind of experience do you have? Have you experienced poverty? Has your family been on "welfare" for even a short period of time? Did you get the free lunch program? Did you go to the elementary school in the poorest section of town? Did you ever experience dropping out of little league because your family just couldn't afford the cost of it? Did you start working before you were a teenager to start your college savings? Did you ever stay on a friend's couch because you were temporarily down on your luck? Did you pay your own way through college? Did you ever park your junker manual transmission vehicle (litterally bought for less than $100) on hills so you could roll down hill and pop the clutch to get it started due to not having enough cash to buy a new battery? Have you ever eaten a mustard sandwich? Were brown beans and fried potatoes ever a mainstay of your diet (I still love both by the way)? Did you never do a spring vacation to Florida or Mexico with your college friends because you couldn't afford it and had to work to stay in school after spring vacation?

What I find grating, and this may not apply to you, are those never experiencing poverty tend to lecture us that have on how bad it is/was and that we don't care about them if we don't support this or that program that these silver spoon liberals think we should support.
 
Last edited:
It is interesting that very little commentary is on the theory that having a crisis, a money crisis in particular, can lower one's IQ. If so, can poverty make one less employable? If so, what is the solution? If not, what studies are there indicating the above studies are wrong?
 
It is interesting that very little commentary is on the theory that having a crisis, a money crisis in particular, can lower one's IQ. If so, can poverty make one less employable? If so, what is the solution? If not, what studies are there indicating the above studies are wrong?
"You can't get rid of poverty by giving people money." P. J. O'Rourke
 
ADVERTISEMENT