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Charges Issued In Breonna Taylor Case

Along with your assumption that arrest data accurately reflects actual crimes committed?

Spare me the lecture.
The arrests data includes white and Hispanics also. Do those arrests not count? Or you just know there is racism in who gets and who doesn’t get arrested and thus your argument can’t ever be wrong? Is that where this is headed?
 
What? Sorry mate, that’s dumb. What other possible variable would you use to count violent crimes? 911 calls? Word of mouth? The lady on the stoop? Sheesh. If you don’t want to have a fruitful discussion fine, but don’t stop reading after I used the only variable that makes sense.

Again - we agree the real discussion has to be on why they’re committing more violent crimes - even though you seem to not believe that they are despite all evidence from FBI to the contrary.
We discussed this issue in one of those other threads, too. I'm not saying I have a better alternative, but there are clearly obvious reasons why arrest rates might not be a very good proxy for actual criminal incidence.
 
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But to stand by that the 13%\23% is evidence that there’s systemic racism is preposterous after being shown that the violent crime trend dwarfs that 23%.
I didn't say that. I said that the 13.4%/23.4% data is reason for deeper inquiry.

In a civil context - like the mortgage lending class action case I was talking about - that alone would be sufficient for a prima facie case of discrimination. It would shift the burden to the defendant to prove a business necessity - such as incomes, or loan-to-value ratios, or debt-to-income ratios - are different between white and Black borrowers. BTW, any of those business necessity factors could be influenced by systemic racism . . . the question then would be whether the defendant has direct responsibility for the statistical discrepancies present in those factors.

This approach is much more difficult in a law enforcement context . . . but it needs to be done, if in a modified fashion. In a law enforcement context, the police (rightly or wrongly) are proxies for the society at large. That's why the individual officers can be not charged, but the government and police agree to make changes such as no more no-knock warrants. But the overall accountability remains . . . .
 
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We discussed this issue in one of those other threads, too. I'm not saying I have a better alternative, but there are clearly obvious reasons why arrest rates might not be a very good proxy for actual criminal incidence.
you might be right but i also think you're right that there's not a better alternative. court dispositions don't really mirror charges etc
 
The arrests data includes white and Hispanics also. Do those arrests not count? Or you just know there is racism in who gets and who doesn’t get arrested and thus your argument can’t ever be wrong? Is that where this is headed?
Arrests are just arrests. Arrests do not mean a crime has been committed. That's why we have judges and trials . . . hell, we don't even have the presumption of guilt like there is in France.
 
I didn't say that. I said that the 13.4%/23.4% data is reason for deeper inquiry.

In a civil context - like the mortgage lending class action case I was talking about - that alone would be sufficient for a prima facie case of discrimination. It would shift the burden to the defendant to prove a business necessity - such as incomes, or loan-to-value ratios, or debt-to-income ratios - are different between white and Black borrowers. BTW, any of those business necessity factors could be influenced by systemic racism . . . the question then would be whether the defendant has direct responsibility for the statistical discrepancies present in those factors.

This approach is much more difficult in a law enforcement context . . . but it needs to be done, if in a modified fashion. In a law enforcement context, the police (rightly or wrongly) are proxies for the society at large. That's why the individual officers can be not charged, but the government and police agree to make changes such as no more no-knock warrants. But the overall accountability remains . . . .
i see where you're going sope as that's obviously a hot area for systemic racism but i don't think it translates to law enforcement.
 
Arrests are just arrests. Arrests do not mean a crime has been committed. That's why we have judges and trials . . . hell, we don't even have the presumption of guilt like there is in France.
but as goat indicated arrests are the best indicator we have. court dispositions don't even have to track the charge along with a hundred other variables
 
We discussed this issue in one of those other threads, too. I'm not saying I have a better alternative, but there are clearly obvious reasons why arrest rates might not be a very good proxy for actual criminal incidence.
There are clearly reasons why arrests aren’t perfect variable but I posit that convictions would be argued against by the same people for the same reason. Everyone has made up their mind. Period. Let’s burn down gas stations.
 
What? Sorry mate, that’s dumb. What other possible variable would you use to count violent crimes? 911 calls? Word of mouth? The lady on the stoop? Sheesh. If you don’t want to have a fruitful discussion fine, but don’t stop reading after I used the only variable that makes sense.

Again - we agree the real discussion has to be on why they’re committing more violent crimes - even though you seem to not believe that they are despite all evidence from FBI to the contrary.
The only stat that is valid is dispositions. Those might not reflect the original charges, but they're the only stat that indicates that a crime was actually committed and what that crime actually was.
 
but as goat indicated arrests are the best indicator we have. court dispositions don't even have to track the charge along with a hundred other variables
Sure. Check out the convictions then Sope. It’s much worse.
 
The only stat that is valid is dispositions. Those might not reflect the original charges, but they're the only stat that indicates that a crime was actually committed and what that crime actually was.
Is there such a stat measured at scale? I’d love to learn more as I agree it’s better.
 
court dispositions don't even have to track the charge along with a hundred other variables
So what? Police do jam up some defendants with charges not supported by the facts. Dispositions are the only way to capture what either a judge, jury or agreement have adjudicated. Until then, charges ain't nothing . . . .
 
Sure. Check out the convictions then Sope. It’s much worse.
Not my argument to make . . . it's on you, Mr. Prosecutor. You're the one advocating for using stats indicating that Blacks shot by police are favorable to Blacks.
 
So what? Police do jam up some defendants with charges not supported by the facts. Dispositions are the only way to capture what either a judge, jury or agreement have adjudicated. Until then, charges ain't nothing . . . .
the more i think about it the more i think it's just another indicia and not necessarily better. too many variables go into dispositions
 
You're gonna have to explain that conclusion to me . . . when AAs make up 13.4% of the population but 23.4% of those killed by police, that jumps to me out as a statistical anomaly indicating police are shooting AAs at a higher rate than with the general population . . . tell me how that translates into AAs being less likely to be shot than whites . . .

. . . BTW, I've done a fair amount of statistical analysis related to race discrimination in other contexts. You're gonna have to explain how this context is "different".


I think this is what Ranger and McM are trying to say. There is a correlation between those who are shot and violent crime in an area. In areas where whites are committing more violent crimes, they make up the majority of the shooting victims. So to McM's point, if blacks account for 60% of robberies and 50% of murders, you would expect them to have fairly high numbers of fatalities associated to police shootings. (They commit a higher percentage of violent crimes.)

I think the systemic issue is pulled out of those figures because violent crimes are something that is pretty clear cut. You can make more of a case that over policing leads to more drug arrests in the black community (more likely to be pulled over for minor infractions which leads to discovery of other more serious crimes) but that is harder to argue in the case of murder or robbery.
 
until i'm persuaded otherwise i don't see the value in no-knocks for drug shit. the reward isn't worth the risk to all involved. and i don't know who posted it before but if working security is secondary collecting on these drug busts is "third-ary."
It wasn't a "no knock" op.
 
But hoosboot you can find similar circumstances for whites shot. You can’t look at this in a vacuum that presupposes racism

Are they included in the data you cite? If so, why not? How about George Floyd? Eric Garner? The white corollaries that you are certain exist to those examples, but not yet identified? You reach a very strong conclusion based on incomplete data, but then you accuse others of manipulating data. That's another one of those things that I struggle with.
 
Is there such a stat measured at scale? I’d love to learn more as I agree it’s better.
If not, then we're not doing it right . . . measure what matters.

BTW, I've spent my career over on the civil side . . . I don't even know how to spell crinimal . . . you know, crime stuff. I do think there are principles from the disparate impact litigation over on the civil side that can be adapted and useful in the criminal context. But you have to have the right data . . . knowing the % of Blacks who default on a loan would be meaningless to an analysis of whether there was disparate impact if you didn't collect the other 127 data points used to understand whether there was a difference from white borrowers, and why the % difference existed.
 
sustained. i'll rephrase. we do know that. 53% of homicides and 60% of robberies are committed by blacks


To put it another way, AAs are 4.08x more likely than the rest of the US population to murder someone, and 1.8x more likely to be shot by the police.
 
Are they included in the data you cite? If so, why not? How about George Floyd? Eric Garner? The white corollaries that you are certain exist to those examples, but not yet identified? You reach a very strong conclusion based on incomplete data, but then you accuse others of manipulating data. That's another one of those things that I struggle with.
1004 - 235 are the whites. And yes on this board the whites who have been killed under questionable circumstances have been cited numerous times. There just aren’t protests and extensive media coverage. I don’t think he died but the guy on the Chicago subway was unarmed. I can think of him right off the top of my head
 
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i see where you're going sope as that's obviously a hot area for systemic racism but i don't think it translates to law enforcement.
Oh, it can translate . . . it's a matter of how the translation is done and how meaningful (read "accurate") the translation is. The thing is, though, I don't think anybody wants to have meaningful amounts of data on which any statistical validations are done. That would take too many lives . . . .
 
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I think this is what Ranger and McM are trying to say. There is a correlation between those who are shot and violent crime in an area. In areas where whites are committing more violent crimes, they make up the majority of the shooting victims. So to McM's point, if blacks account for 60% of robberies and 50% of murders, you would expect them to have fairly high numbers of fatalities associated to police shootings. (They commit a higher percentage of violent crimes.)

I think the systemic issue is pulled out of those figures because violent crimes are something that is pretty clear cut. You can make more of a case that over policing leads to more drug arrests in the black community (more likely to be pulled over for minor infractions which leads to discovery of other more serious crimes) but that is harder to argue in the case of murder or robbery.
I think it also has to do with where people live along ethnic lines and density. Urban areas have a ton of police per citizen compared to more rural areas. It’s quite possible that AAs are “over-policed” compared to whites and Hispanics at the national scale, but to call that racism takes proof and it is very well explained by there being a lot more police in cities.
 
If not, then we're not doing it right . . . measure what matters.

BTW, I've spent my career over on the civil side . . . I don't even know how to spell crinimal . . . you know, crime stuff. I do think there are principles from the disparate impact litigation over on the civil side that can be adapted and useful in the criminal context. But you have to have the right data . . . knowing the % of Blacks who default on a loan would be meaningless to an analysis of whether there was disparate impact if you didn't collect the other 127 data points used to understand whether there was a difference from white borrowers, and why the % difference existed.
Agreed. But we have arrests and we have convictions. We can triangulate.
 
1004 - 235 are the whites. And yes on this board the whites who have been killed under questionable circumstances have been cited numerous times. There just aren’t protests and extensive media coverage. I don’t think he died but the guy on the Chicago subway was unarmed. I can think of him right off the top of my head
That was Ariel Roman. And Daniel Shaver was executed for the offense of being drunk in a hallway and obeying every command the AR-wielding officer (whose AR was inscribed with “you’re ****ed”) gave him. And it was barely a blip in the news.
 
1004 - 235 are the whites. And yes on this board the whites who have been killed under questionable circumstances have been cited numerous times. There just aren’t protests and extensive media coverage. I don’t think he died but the guy on the Chicago subway was unarmed. I can think of him right off the top of my head

It's neat that you can think of examples off the top of your head. That means your memory is still working! :>)

But, the question is are those examples included in the data you cite. If no, why not? And, if no, why is that evidence that the data that you cite supports the claim that you say it does sans manipulation?
 
Agreed. But we have arrests and we have convictions. We can triangulate.
We might be able to estimate, based upon historical data. But that's just an estimate and it's just looking backwards.

Does that help solve the systemic racism argument? I don't think so . . . it puts us right back where we are currently, which is everybody just advocating for their own perceptions of the issue.
 
Prove your assertion, Mas. According to the information I've seen it most certainly was a no-knock op:

There is a 29 page verbatim transcript from Louisville MPD available on social media which describes in detail this investigation. This transcript includes recorded telephone calls from incarcerated suspects relating to events of that action and the significant activities of Breonna Taylor in the months prior to the action. One repeated statement talks of police "beating on the door".
Also speaks to Breonna Taylor "holding" several thousands of drug money for Louisville and out-of-state drug dealers.
Interesting read.
 
We might be able to estimate, based upon historical data. But that's just an estimate and it's just looking backwards.

Does that help solve the systemic racism argument? I don't think so . . . it puts us right back where we are currently, which is everybody just advocating for their own perceptions of the issue.
Except one side has data and the other has feelings.
 
It's neat that you can think of examples off the top of your head. That means your memory is still working! :>)

But, the question is are those examples included in the data you cite. If no, why not? And, if no, why is that evidence that the data that you cite supports the claim that you say it does sans manipulation?
The figures I cite were from wsj citing the wapo repository. They include all cop killings for 2019.
 
There is a 29 page verbatim transcript from Louisville MPD available on social media which describes in detail this investigation. This transcript includes recorded telephone calls from incarcerated suspects relating to events of that action and the significant activities of Breonna Taylor in the months prior to the action. One repeated statement talks of police "beating on the door".
Also speaks to Breonna Taylor "holding" several thousands of drug money for Louisville and out-of-state drug dealers.
Interesting read.
So you agree that the warrant issued was for a no-knock op?

In addition, do you think police transcripts are perfectly accurate and unbiased?
 


"After researching the FBI numbers for "Suicide of a Superpower," this writer concluded: "An analysis of 'single offender victimization figures' from the FBI for 2007 finds blacks committed 433,934 crimes against whites, eight times the 55,685 whites committed against blacks. Interracial rape is almost exclusively black on white — with 14,000 assaults on white women by African Americans in 2007. Not one case of a white sexual assault on a black female was found in the FBI study.""
 
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