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Spartans9312

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The CDC can't stop proving itself useless and incompetent. They JUST posted new guidance on Friday saying that COVID-19 is primarily spread through airborne particles rather than through contact with infected surfaces. The majority of scientists and public health experts have been saying this for months. Hell this has been conventional wisdom for most Americans for some time.
 

mcmurtry66

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The CDC can't stop proving itself useless and incompetent. They JUST posted new guidance on Friday saying that COVID-19 is primarily spread through airborne particles rather than through contact with infected surfaces. The majority of scientists and public health experts have been saying this for months. Hell this has been conventional wisdom for most Americans for some time.
They are totally worthless in every conceivable way as it relates to the pandemic. What's sickening is the amount of funding they receive. A middle school science class could have had their response.
 

Spartans9312

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They are totally worthless in every conceivable way as it relates to the pandemic. What's sickening is the amount of funding they receive. A middle school science class could have had their response.
It gets worse. A few days after posting info about airborne spread, they took down that info and said it was posted in error.
Washington Post: "The agency had posted information Friday stating the virus can transmit over a distance beyond six feet, suggesting that indoor ventilation is key to protecting against it."
But by today, "all references to airborne spread, except for a disclaimer that recommendations based on this mode of transmission are under review," have been removed from the CDC website.
 

mcmurtry66

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It gets worse. A few days after posting info about airborne spread, they took down that info and said it was posted in error.
Washington Post: "The agency had posted information Friday stating the virus can transmit over a distance beyond six feet, suggesting that indoor ventilation is key to protecting against it."
But by today, "all references to airborne spread, except for a disclaimer that recommendations based on this mode of transmission are under review," have been removed from the CDC website.
I saw and posted that in another thread. i've been long saying their response has been a complete joke. and again, when you look at the funding they receive it's disgusting. trump, the cdc, americans - we had no chance....
 
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twenty02

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It gets worse. A few days after posting info about airborne spread, they took down that info and said it was posted in error.
Washington Post: "The agency had posted information Friday stating the virus can transmit over a distance beyond six feet, suggesting that indoor ventilation is key to protecting against it."
But by today, "all references to airborne spread, except for a disclaimer that recommendations based on this mode of transmission are under review," have been removed from the CDC website.

You can thank political interference from the WH/HHS on that matter. And for most of their consistently inconsistent messaging through this pandemic. Politics trumps science.
 

Spartans9312

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I saw and posted that in another thread. i've been long saying their response has been a complete joke. and again, when you look at the funding they receive it's disgusting. trump, the cdc, americans - we had no chance....
Maybe they've been to busy issuing the nationwide eviction moratorium. A lawsuit has been filed claiming the moratorium is both illegal and unconstitutional.
From the complaint: "These property owners upheld their end of the bargain. They provided a habitable home to their tenants and continue to pay for maintenance, utilities, and other expenses. Plaintiffs should have been able to follow the lawful processes laid down by state law for retaking possession of their homes."
 
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Spartans9312

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You can thank political interference from the WH/HHS on that matter. And for most of their consistently inconsistent messaging through this pandemic. Politics trumps science.
Oh I have no doubt you are correct in most of the instances. Not sure on this one.
From NYT: "Experts with knowledge of the incident said on Monday that the latest reversal appeared to be a genuine mistake in the agency's scientific review process, rather than the result of political meddling."
 
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Marvin the Martian

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Oh I have no doubt you are correct in most of the instances. Not sure on this one.
From NYT: "Experts with knowledge of the incident said on Monday that the latest reversal appeared to be a genuine mistake in the agency's scientific review process, rather than the result of political meddling."
That is interesting given the NIH came to this conclusion months ago. Why would the CDC be still haggling over it?
 

mcmurtry66

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Oh I have no doubt you are correct in most of the instances. Not sure on this one.
From NYT: "Experts with knowledge of the incident said on Monday that the latest reversal appeared to be a genuine mistake in the agency's scientific review process, rather than the result of political meddling."
They weren’t ready despite having months advanced notice in other countries and an insane budget. Their screwups predate political influence. It’s an example of why people hate taxes and were excited about trump cleaning house. Of course he didn’t and only made things much worse.
 

UncleMark

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Rachel Maddow reporting the original, strongly worded CDC report regarding a Covid outbreak in a South Dakota meat packing plant in April was replaced with a watered down version. Requirements were changed to recommendations, "if feasible" and "if possible" added to definitive steps to be taken, ill employees were allowed to continue working. All on the order of the office of the Director of the CDC, Redfield.

Presumption is that the meat packers got to Sonny Perdue, who in turn got the White House to intervene with Redfield.
 
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twenty02

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Despair at CDC after Trump influence: 'I have never seen morale this low'


The Trump administration’s bungled response to the coronavirus pandemic and its subsequent efforts to meddle with recommendations from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) are taking a substantial toll on the nation’s foremost public health institution.

In interviews with half a dozen current and former CDC officials, they described a workforce that has seen its expertise questioned, its findings overturned for political purposes and its effectiveness in combating the pandemic undermined by partisan actors in Washington.

“I have never seen morale this low. It’s just, people are beaten down. People are beaten down partially by a public who not only distrusts us but who actually think we want to infringe on their civil liberties,” said one current CDC employee. “The other factor is the active undermining by senior members of our own administration.”


 

Cortez88

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I think we need to distinguish between the CDC and Trump’s CDC. Trump’s CDC is a political animal that values political operatives over medical experts.
 

sglowrider

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Report: White House Rejected CDC Mask Mandate On Commercial And Public Transportation

The White House rejected a plan from the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention to mandate face masks on commercial and public transportation, according to a Friday report from the New York Times citing two officials, in what appears to be another instance of the administration overruling the experts at the key public health agency during the Covid-19 pandemic.

KEY FACTS

  • Using its "quarantine powers," the CDC crafted a plan to make face coverings compulsory on forms of transportation like buses, trains and airplanes, according to the Times, and had the support of Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar.
  • However, the White House's coronavirus task force, led by Vice President Mike Pence, rejected the plan, refusing to even deliberate on it, according to the Times.
  • The White House has increasingly butted heads with the CDC in the past month, with Trump publicly criticizing comments by CDC Director Robert Redfield on how long it will take to field a coronavirus vaccine and the efficacy of wearing a mask.
  • It's also far from the first time the White House has been accused of meddling with the federal government's health agencies, such as the controversial publication and subsequent removal of CDC guidelines that discouraged asymptomatic people exposed to the coronavirus from getting tested, which reportedly came from the administration.
  • Like the country's testing fragmented testing protocol, commercial and public transportation has operated under a mish-mash of different policies, hitting transit workers themselves especially hard with around 100 deaths by April 20, according to the Guardian.
  • The Department of Transportation on Sunday rejected a petition from transit labor unions requesting a mask requirement for passengers on public transportation.


 
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hondo314

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Their screwups predate political influence.
Lol.

My wife works in public health and just took a job with the CDC Foundation. You seem like a good dude but I don’t think you really get what the CDC does or what the “novel” part of Covid means.
 

mcmurtry66

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Lol.

My wife works in public health and just took a job with the CDC Foundation. You seem like a good dude but I don’t think you really get what the CDC does or what the “novel” part of Covid means.
The cdc’s mistakes are widely published from masks, to airborne, to conflating viral and antibody tests which Harvard recently called out as “rookie mistakes” giving us an inaccurate assessment of the state of the pandemic which states rely upon in reopening. Lol. As for what cdc does they’ve been around 75 years. Their budget allocations defining what they do are well known. We studied the cdc in grad school. I know what they do. If their claim that their litany of public F ups are a product of political influence - fine; but the notion behind all fed agencies and quasi fed agencies is that full time GS employees are insulated from influence. If they no longer are we have massive problems. Further scientists have independent ethical obligations concerning their research.

Removing trump is critical but again a fleecing of a number of fed agencies is desperately needed. I’d rather give the 8 billion they get annually to slg in Singapore for Covid advice.

As for your wife; congrats! That’ll make for a good pension down the road
 
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HillzHoozier

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Every topic, every story is viewed thru the same prism--how de we blame Trump. Any articles out there criticizing Nancy's invitation to Chinatown party or Fauci stating in February that masks are unnecessary? Nothing about Cuomo's nursing home massacre? Maybe there's film of Trump hoarding toilet paper or groceries?

All you have is Trump's cheerleading optimistic b.s. and disdain for universal mask wearing. Yes, Trump gets defensive and stupid and there is room to blame him for a ragged response. Twisting that into "he has blood on his hands" is a joke I wish was funny. This entire episode has been politicized by everyone involved, and this constant barrage of one-way attacks makes people like outside shitter's nephews hate the alternative as much as y'all hate Trump.
 
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mcmurtry66

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lol. No one said there weren’t mistakes. There always will be (“Novel”) especially as new data emerges. Fauci was pretty clear the mask ruse was to keep the masses from hoarding masks before medical professionals could stock up. That’s the kind of decisions public health folks make. Seems effed up from a layman’s POV. I get that as I am a layman’s layman. Lol. Anyway, our top govt PR guy — aka our prez — decided to undermine the CDC’s efforts from day one (as he has a lot of federal agencies). It was going to be a confusing path regardless. So you don’t think the prez hurt their efforts? Just not sure how anyone who has watched this play out could take that view. Or how anyone with a basic understanding of what the CDC does could think it’s a waste of money. It was one agency that typically avoided partisan crap. Well, until now.
Like most things trump poisoned cdc. Absolutely. But as Harvard points out the cdc’s scientific review, data, and analysis have been fraught with errors that aren’t a product of the novelty of the virus but rather “rookie” scientific mistakes. Data relied upon in making critical decisions concerning lockdowns. Inexcusable.
 
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Bloom.

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The CDC can't stop proving itself useless and incompetent. They JUST posted new guidance on Friday saying that COVID-19 is primarily spread through airborne particles rather than through contact with infected surfaces. The majority of scientists and public health experts have been saying this for months. Hell this has been conventional wisdom for most Americans for some time.
It's possible to learn more information about something, even information that refutes or amends previous information.

They are totally worthless in every conceivable way as it relates to the pandemic. What's sickening is the amount of funding they receive. A middle school science class could have had their response.
When the president resists at almost every turn and even tries to compel the information to flow a certain way, it's hard for them to do their job.
 

mcmurtry66

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It's possible to learn more information about something, even information that refutes or amends previous information.



When the president resists at almost every turn and even tries to compel the information to flow a certain way, it's hard for them to do their job.
only partly the case. as i said harvard found rudimentary scientific mistakes. again, two things can be true; which is so often lost on this board. Trump could have interfered AND the cdc could have made mistakes independent of trump - as widely-published
 
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Bloom.

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only partly the case. as i said harvard found rudimentary scientific mistakes.
Whatever. They're scrambling to catch up, and they're not getting any help from Trump or the sycophant governors who follow his every lead. I'm just glad Indiana has had a pretty good plan from beginning, even if it wasn't enough to start.

By that I mean, I would've thought two weeks of ultimate shut down, no in store shopping for anything. Turn grocery store employees into a full time shoppers, then gone the essential businesses route.
 

mcmurtry66

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Whatever. They're scrambling to catch up, and they're not getting any help from Trump or the sycophant governors who follow his every lead. I'm just glad Indiana has had a pretty good plan from beginning, even if it wasn't enough to start.

By that I mean, I would've thought two weeks of ultimate shut down, no in store shopping for anything. Turn grocery store employees into a full time shoppers, then gone the essential businesses route.
I don’t think it’s whatever at all. I think it’s a huge deal. I think again Biden needs to do a fleecing of the agency. When peers are condemning their scientific mistakes as rookie mistakes (that are insulated from politics) it’s a concern. If private entities can do a better job that too ought to be considered.
 
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mcmurtry66

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It doesn't matter whether Democrats or Republicans were in office the FDA and CDC would remain inept. The problem is both those 2 parties are in the way.

It doesn't matter whether Democrats or Republicans were in office the FDA and CDC would remain inept. The problem is both those 2 parties are in the way.

the older i get the more jaded i grow and the more libertarians appeal to me. there's just some really big obstacles that leave me thinking so much of what they believe is aspirational rather than doable. what's more it's the ultimate catch 22. a lib vote is just pissing away a vote. but without voting third party there will never be a third party
 

hoosboot

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only partly the case. as i said harvard found rudimentary scientific mistakes. again, two things can be true; which is so often lost on this board. Trump could have interfered AND the cdc could have made mistakes independent of trump - as widely-published
You keep saying that "Harvard says" or "Harvard found"...could you point me to that? I suspect it's more likely that "a Professor at Harvard said", but would love to see the information where the university came out to criticize the CDC.
 

mcmurtry66

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You keep saying that "Harvard says" or "Harvard found"...could you point me to that? I suspect it's more likely that "a Professor at Harvard said", but would love to see the information where the university came out to criticize the CDC.
you're sort of right. the ongoing cdc criticisms largely come from the director of the global health institute at harvard in both his capacity as director of same on their website and in opinion pieces. here statnews.com/2020/04/29/we-need-the-real-cdc-back-and-we-need-it-now/ he talks about their failures early on as they relate to data collection, testing, tracking etc. there have been endless articles chronicling the mistakes of the cdc including a piece by the NYT entitled "The CDC Waited it's entire existence for this moment; what went wrong" where the cdc's sloppy practices are highlighted, including their shoddy lab practices that gave rise to tainted coronavirus tests. the latest complaints from harvard's global health institute relate to conflating viral and antibody tests and providing shoddy guidance predicated on the mistake. here they assume the mistake had to come from political interference but again condemn the cdc's muddled data collection practices.

i think based on the wealth of articles written, the citations evidencing sloppy lab practices to outmoded data collection practices, to poor scientific/review and analysis, it's a clear picture of a poorly performing agency wholly ill-prepared to deal with covid that was exacerbated by the influence of a corrupt president and administration
 
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ButHerEmails

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Every topic, every story is viewed thru the same prism--how de we blame Trump. Any articles out there criticizing Nancy's invitation to Chinatown party or Fauci stating in February that masks are unnecessary? Nothing about Cuomo's nursing home massacre? Maybe there's film of Trump hoarding toilet paper or groceries?

All you have is Trump's cheerleading optimistic b.s. and disdain for universal mask wearing. Yes, Trump gets defensive and stupid and there is room to blame him for a ragged response. Twisting that into "he has blood on his hands" is a joke I wish was funny. This entire episode has been politicized by everyone involved, and this constant barrage of one-way attacks makes people like outside shitter's nephews hate the alternative as much as y'all hate Trump.
We all know you aren’t a Trump guy and you’re not here to defend Trump, but you’re here to defend Trump. I just wanted to clear that up. We all got your back.
 

bwcoach

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Every topic, every story is viewed thru the same prism--how de we blame Trump. Any articles out there criticizing Nancy's invitation to Chinatown party or Fauci stating in February that masks are unnecessary? Nothing about Cuomo's nursing home massacre? Maybe there's film of Trump hoarding toilet paper or groceries?

All you have is Trump's cheerleading optimistic b.s. and disdain for universal mask wearing. Yes, Trump gets defensive and stupid and there is room to blame him for a ragged response. Twisting that into "he has blood on his hands" is a joke I wish was funny. This entire episode has been politicized by everyone involved, and this constant barrage of one-way attacks makes people like outside shitter's nephews hate the alternative as much as y'all hate Trump.
My only answer to that would be in a question. If Trump had come right out and told everyone what he knew would NP and others made those dumb comments? If they had then I would agree with you.
 

HillzHoozier

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My only answer to that would be in a question. If Trump had come right out and told everyone what he knew would NP and others made those dumb comments? If they had then I would agree with you.
It would be interesting to see the reports he saw to know exactly what he knew and when he knew it. Also, how early were other officials (Fauci, Birx, Pelosi, mayor of New Orleans, et al) privvy to the same information. Dr. Fauci was out in public saying covid was nbd.
 
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Spartans9312

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This from a guy who supports the so-called-president, who constantly bitching about CDC?
You are an amazing specimen of human being, amigo!

P.S.: If our so-called president farts in front of you, would you tell him: "That was the most aromatic fart I have ever witnessed"?

PPS: TrumpVirus is a new thing, very new thing! As such, the medical science is finding new things everyday. As such, it is not surprising they will find new/revised provisions/opinions on a daily basis. Even though, on the pandemic would you rather follow Trump's advice that is based on his daily fart or from the scientists who have spent entire life studying medical matters? I think I know the answer but I thought I would ask.

Sigh!
I thought Trump was the biggest idiot around.
Then I read one of your posts.
 
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meridian

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I thought Trump was the biggest idiot around.
Then I read one of your posts.
Instead of answering my question, you've done the usual thing again, i.e., insulting the questioner. So, I will give you another chance:
On the TrumpVirus, would you rather follow Trump's advice which is based on his daily fart or from the scientists who have spent their entire career studying medical matters?
 

sglowrider

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The US has a confirmed reinfection. As discouraging, the second infection was worse even though he still had antibodies. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...wice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/
What reinfections mean for COVID-19

As more cases of reinfection surface, the scientific community will have the opportunity to understand better the correlates of protection and how frequently natural infections with SARS-CoV-2 induce that level of immunity. This information is key to understanding which vaccines are capable of crossing that threshold to confer individual and herd immunity.

Do reinfections occur because of a scant antibody response after first infection?

Of the four reinfection cases reported to date, none of the individuals had known immune deficiencies. Currently, only two individuals had serological data from the first infection and one had pre-existing antibody (IgM) against SARS-CoV-2. Because of the wide range of serological testing platforms used across the globe, it is impossible to compare results from one assay to another. For example, antibody reactivity to nucleocapsid protein indicates previous exposure to SARS-CoV-2 but not whether antibodies that can block infection (anti-spike) are present. Also, antibody levels are highly dependent on the timing after exposure. The key goal for the future is to ascertain the level and specificity of antibody to spike protein at the time of reinfection, to determine immune correlate of protection.


Does immunity protect an individual from disease on reinfection?
The answer is not necessarily, because patients from Nevada and Ecuador had worse disease outcomes at reinfection than at first infection. It is important to keep in mind that the reinfection cases in general are being picked up because of symptoms and are biased towards detection of symptomatic cases. Due to the paucity of broad testing and surveillance, we do not know how frequently reinfection occurs among individuals who recovered from their first infection. Asymptomatic reinfection cases can only be picked up by routine community testing or at an airport, for example, and we are probably severely underestimating the number of asymptomatic reinfections. Why do some reinfections result in milder disease,whereas others are more severe?,
Further investigation is needed of pre-existing immune responses before second exposure, and viral inoculum load.

Does infection by different viral isolates mean we need a vaccine for each type?

While differences in the viral genome sequence of the various isolates are a great way to know if an individual is reinfected (ruling out reactivation of lingering virus infection), it does not indicate that the second infection was due to immune evasion. There is currently no evidence that a SARS-CoV-2 variant has emerged as a result of immune evasion. For now, one vaccine will be sufficient to confer protection against all circulating variants.

Furthermore, reinfection by a distinct viral variant from the original virus does not imply immune escape.
 
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ButHerEmails

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What reinfections mean for COVID-19

As more cases of reinfection surface, the scientific community will have the opportunity to understand better the correlates of protection and how frequently natural infections with SARS-CoV-2 induce that level of immunity. This information is key to understanding which vaccines are capable of crossing that threshold to confer individual and herd immunity.

Do reinfections occur because of a scant antibody response after first infection?

Of the four reinfection cases reported to date, none of the individuals had known immune deficiencies. Currently, only two individuals had serological data from the first infection and one had pre-existing antibody (IgM) against SARS-CoV-2. Because of the wide range of serological testing platforms used across the globe, it is impossible to compare results from one assay to another. For example, antibody reactivity to nucleocapsid protein indicates previous exposure to SARS-CoV-2 but not whether antibodies that can block infection (anti-spike) are present. Also, antibody levels are highly dependent on the timing after exposure. The key goal for the future is to ascertain the level and specificity of antibody to spike protein at the time of reinfection, to determine immune correlate of protection.


Does immunity protect an individual from disease on reinfection?
The answer is not necessarily, because patients from Nevada and Ecuador had worse disease outcomes at reinfection than at first infection. It is important to keep in mind that the reinfection cases in general are being picked up because of symptoms and are biased towards detection of symptomatic cases. Due to the paucity of broad testing and surveillance, we do not know how frequently reinfection occurs among individuals who recovered from their first infection. Asymptomatic reinfection cases can only be picked up by routine community testing or at an airport, for example, and we are probably severely underestimating the number of asymptomatic reinfections. Why do some reinfections result in milder disease,whereas others are more severe?,
Further investigation is needed of pre-existing immune responses before second exposure, and viral inoculum load.

Does infection by different viral isolates mean we need a vaccine for each type?

While differences in the viral genome sequence of the various isolates are a great way to know if an individual is reinfected (ruling out reactivation of lingering virus infection), it does not indicate that the second infection was due to immune evasion. There is currently no evidence that a SARS-CoV-2 variant has emerged as a result of immune evasion. For now, one vaccine will be sufficient to confer protection against all circulating variants.

Furthermore, reinfection by a distinct viral variant from the original virus does not imply immune escape.
Curious what the real reinfection numbers are. Like how many people were asymptomatic the first time so they never got tested and only had a positive test when they got sick with the second infection. There’s no way to know without more extensive testing, which we can’t do because that just gives us more cases. Look, point is we need to stop testing so we eliminate this disease entirely.
 
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Mas-sa-suta

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Oh I have no doubt you are correct in most of the instances. Not sure on this one.
From NYT: "Experts with knowledge of the incident said on Monday that the latest reversal appeared to be a genuine mistake in the agency's scientific review process, rather than the result of political meddling."
Don't wake him from his dream...
 

StelioKontos

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Don't wake him from his dream...
You remind me of that "Married... With Children" episode. Al comes out of the toilet and Peggy asks him did he remember to put the seat down. Al answers something like, "Put the seat down? Hell, I didn't put the seat up."

You're the toilet seat.
 
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twenty02

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WSJ: A Demoralized CDC Grapples With White House Meddling and its Own Mistakes
Trump advisers made line-by-line edits to official health guidance, altering language written by scientists on church choirs and social distancing


President Trump and his advisers have taken a more hands-on role than previously known in shaping Covid-19 recommendations from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, helping create a crisis of confidence in the nation’s top public-health agency.

The changes the White House has sought—in many cases successfully—go beyond the agency’s public messaging. White House advisers have made line-by-line edits to official health guidance, altering language written by CDC scientists on church choirs, social distancing in bars and restaurants as well as internal summaries of public-health reports, according to interviews with current and former agency and administration officials and their emails.

In one previously unreported Oval Office meeting, the president and top White House officials in May pressed CDC Director Robert Redfield to declare houses of worship essential and allow them to reopen. Later, they pushed to strip certain language from the guidance, current and former administration officials said. Both efforts were successful.




It goes on....





Trump promises to put more political hack appointees in charge of the CDC if he wins reelection.
 

UncleMark

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Trump promises to put more political hack appointees in charge of the CDC if he wins reelection.
When lying is reflexive personally, the truth no longer matters.

The lying that gave us Viet Nam, Watergate, and the Iraq War were punished politically, and severely. The lying that has resulted in the erosion of the Republic's foundation by Trump is no less egregious. It needs to be punished equally.

The criminal prosecution can be on top of that.
 
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