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Boeing 737 Max: The Flying Coffin

sglowrider

sglowrider

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https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...d/news-story/28de53a23285acd177d9f5386b6731fb

Low-cost airline Lion Air said the plane was carrying 181 passengers, including one child and two babies, and eight crew members. At least 23 Indonesian government officials, an Indian pilot, and an Italian man were also on board.

TROUBLED Lion Air flight JT 610 made erratic altitude changes in the brief time it was in the sky before it dramatically plunged and crashed into the sea.
About three minutes after the Boeing 737 Max 8 took off for its one-hour flight to Pangkal Pinang, pilot Bhavye Suneja asked air traffic control for permission to turn around and return to Jakarta airport.

Ten minutes later, the plane crashed into waters off the Java coast.

Preliminary data transmitted by flight 610 now suggests the doomed plane dropped at breakneck speed — falling from an altitude of 1479m in just 21 seconds.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-search-death-toll-passengers-a8607836.html
 
DrHoops said:
I think this is going to be another Air France 447 situation where they flew into a thunderstorm at night and it was pilot error. Maybe pitot tubes were frozen. I’ve been reading about it on airliners.net (I’m an airplane geek).

Lion has an awful safety record and it was a 3 month old plane and one of Boeing’s new 737-Max8.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407217&sid=21d9d092ec03bdab86ca373a25c8bb26

Horrible tragedy.
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Indonesian airlines in general is scary. I have a few personal stories there... off to a massage -- Including a near landing on a highway to Bandung from Jakarta!! Pilot thought it was the runway.
 
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Indonesia 737 crash caused by “safety” feature change pilots weren’t told of 737 Max safety bulletin revealed changes to system that pilots never knew about.

https://arstechnica.com/information...-safety-feature-change-pilots-werent-told-of/

On November 6, Boeing issued an update to Boeing 737 MAX aircrews. The change, directed by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), came because Boeing had never provided guidance to pilots on what to do when part of an updated safety system malfunctioned—the very scenario that the pilots of Indonesia's Lion Air Flight 610 faced on October 29. Not knowing how to correct for the malfunction, the aircrew and their passengers were doomed. All aboard were lost as the aircraft crashed into the Java Sea.
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Boeing never told pilots about one key new safety feature—an automated anti-stall system—or how to troubleshoot its failure. The manual update raised an outcry from pilots in the US.

Allied Pilots Association spokesperson and 737 captain Dennis Tajer told Reuters that his union members were only informed of a new anti-stall system that had been installed by Boeing on 737 MAX aircraft after the Lion Air crash. “It is information that we were not privy to in training or in any other manuals or materials,” Tajer told Reuters.
Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, told Bloomberg, “We don’t like that we weren’t notified.” Southwest has ordered 257 737 MAX aircraft; American has orders for 85 still pending.
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Boeing 737 MAX: Company reveals new software problem detected in jets which 'must be fixed before planes can fly'
Boeing has promised 'to own' the problem

Boeing has reportedly revealed its troubled 737 MAX jets are suffering from an additional software problem that regulators say must be fixed before the planes can be cleared to fly again.

As investigators in Ethiopia said a preliminary examination suggested the Boeing jet that crashed last month with the deaths of 157 passengers and crew was struck by excessive speed and was forced downwards by a wrongly-triggered automation system, new problems emerged for the airline back home in Seattle.
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Anyone has Boeing stock?
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I can see a massive class action lawsuit coming up.
 
Boeing says the company has suffered $1b hit from MAX crisis

Aviation giant Boeing has suffered a $1 billion hit to its bottom line amid the crisis over its 737 MAX aircraft, grounded worldwide after two deadly crashes, the company says.

In its first quarterly earnings report since entering crisis mode, Boeing also withdrew its 2019 profit forecast due to continued uncertainty about when the grounded jets would return to the skies.

Boeing has been under scrutiny since the March 10 crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet, which along with an October Lion Air crash claimed 346 lives.
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The five things we still don't know about the Boeing 737 Max crisis
The aerospace giant said Wednesday that its first-quarter earnings fell 10 per cent, to $US3.75 per share, in the first quarter, and its profit slid 13 per cent, to $US2.1 billion ($3 billion). Sales fell 2 per cent, to $US22.9 billion.

The dismal results were a preview of what's likely to be a long year of setbacks for Boeing, as unsold jets pile up at its production facilities and the company seeks regulator approvals that would allow its planes to fly again. Boeing declined to say how long it expects that approval process to take.
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sglowrider said:
Boeing says the company has suffered $1b hit from MAX crisis





The five things we still don't know about the Boeing 737 Max crisis
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I would hope there will be an investigation in the FAA's approval process. Boeing touted the super fast speed of the Trump Administration's FAA when they were making big money. I think we should know if this super fast process skipped steps. Not necessarily to blame anyone, but to know what is required to catch flaws before a crash happens.

That article you shared yesterday, I think in the Malaysian thread, was fairly frightening. Assuming the people in the comments section claiming to be veteran pilots were veteran pilots, the prognosis isn't great.
 
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looks like Boeing's MCAS software fix, is like Purdue Pharma including narcan with every oxy prescription.
 
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76-1 said:
Nope..., but I'm looking to buy this time next year;)
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You may want to hold off for a while:

Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet
Workers at a 787 Dreamliner plant in South Carolina have complained of defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations.

When Boeing broke ground on its new factory near Charleston in 2009, the plant was trumpeted as a state-of-the-art manufacturing hub, building one of the most advanced aircraft in the world. But in the decade since, the factory, which makes the 787 Dreamliner, has been plagued by shoddy production and weak oversight that have threatened to compromise safety.

A New York Times review of hundreds of pages of internal emails, corporate documents and federal records, as well as interviews with more than a dozen current and former employees, reveals a culture that often valued production speed over quality. Facing long manufacturing delays, Boeing pushed its work force to quickly turn out Dreamliners, at times ignoring issues raised by employees.
...
Safety lapses at the North Charleston plant have drawn the scrutiny of airlines and regulators. Qatar Airways stopped accepting planes from the factory after manufacturing mishaps damaged jets and delayed deliveries. Workers have filed nearly a dozen whistle-blower claims and safety complaints with federal regulators, describing issues like defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations. Others have sued Boeing, saying they were retaliated against for flagging manufacturing mistakes.
...
“I’ve found tubes of sealant, nuts, stuff from the build process,” said Rich Mester, a former technician who reviewed planes before delivery. Mr. Mester was fired, and a claim was filed on his behalf with the National Labor Relations Board over his termination. “They’re supposed to have been inspected for this stuff, and it still makes it out to us.” Employees have found a ladder and a string of lights left inside the tails of planes, near the gears of the horizontal stabilizer. “It could have locked up the gears,” Mr. Mester said.
...
Airlines ordered hundreds of the planes, which cost upward of $200 million each. Spurred by high demand, Boeing set up a new factory.

North Charleston was ideal in many ways. South Carolina has the lowest percentage of union representation in the nation, giving Boeing a potentially less expensive work force. South Carolina doled out nearly $1 billion in tax incentives, including $33 million to train local workers. Boeing pledged to create 3,800 jobs. While Boeing has nurtured generations of aerospace professionals in the Seattle area, there was no comparable work force in South Carolina. Instead, managers had to recruit from technical colleges in Tulsa, Okla., and Atlanta. Managers were also urged to not hire unionized employees from the Boeing factory in Everett, where the Dreamliner is also made, according to two former employees.
...
Mr. Barnett, the former quality manager, who goes by Swampy in a nod to his Louisiana roots, learned in 2016 that a senior manager had pulled a dented hydraulic tube from a scrap bin, he said. He said the tube, part of the central system controlling the plane’s movement, was installed on a Dreamliner. Mr. Barnett said the senior manager had told him, “Don’t worry about it.” He filed a complaint with human resources, company documents show. He also reported to management that defective parts had gone missing, raising the prospect that they had been installed in planes. His bosses, he said, told him to finish the paperwork on the missing parts without figuring out where they had gone.
...
Mr. Barnett was reprimanded in 2014 for documenting errors. In a performance review seen by The Times, a senior manager downgraded him for “using email to express process violations,” instead of engaging “F2F,” or face to face. He took that to mean he shouldn’t put problems in writing. The manager said Mr. Barnett needed to get better at “working in the gray areas and help find a way while maintaining compliance.”
 
Boeing whistleblowers report 737 Max problems to FAA

The day after Ethiopia's minister of transportation released a preliminary crash report on Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, four Boeing employees called an Federal Aviation Administration whistleblower hotline that allows employees and the public to report aviation safety issues.

A source familiar with the matter says the hotline submissions involve current and former Boeing employees describing issues related to the angle of attack sensor -- a vane that measures the plane's angle in the air -- and the anti-stall system called MCAS, which is unique to Boeing's newest plane.
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I was WAY wrong on this. I can’t believe Boeing would put an airplane in the sky with that kind of fault. The thought that it’s a software issue is just insane. I e read that American Airlines pilots had the same thing happen to them but were able to recover. I think Southwest did too.
 
I think it was Qatar Airways that will only take 787s made in the Everett, WA plant. This is a big problem or Boeing. When you try to go cheap, you get what you pay for.

sglowrider said:
You may want to hold off for a while:

Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet
Workers at a 787 Dreamliner plant in South Carolina have complained of defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations.

When Boeing broke ground on its new factory near Charleston in 2009, the plant was trumpeted as a state-of-the-art manufacturing hub, building one of the most advanced aircraft in the world. But in the decade since, the factory, which makes the 787 Dreamliner, has been plagued by shoddy production and weak oversight that have threatened to compromise safety.

A New York Times review of hundreds of pages of internal emails, corporate documents and federal records, as well as interviews with more than a dozen current and former employees, reveals a culture that often valued production speed over quality. Facing long manufacturing delays, Boeing pushed its work force to quickly turn out Dreamliners, at times ignoring issues raised by employees.
...
Safety lapses at the North Charleston plant have drawn the scrutiny of airlines and regulators. Qatar Airways stopped accepting planes from the factory after manufacturing mishaps damaged jets and delayed deliveries. Workers have filed nearly a dozen whistle-blower claims and safety complaints with federal regulators, describing issues like defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations. Others have sued Boeing, saying they were retaliated against for flagging manufacturing mistakes.
...
“I’ve found tubes of sealant, nuts, stuff from the build process,” said Rich Mester, a former technician who reviewed planes before delivery. Mr. Mester was fired, and a claim was filed on his behalf with the National Labor Relations Board over his termination. “They’re supposed to have been inspected for this stuff, and it still makes it out to us.” Employees have found a ladder and a string of lights left inside the tails of planes, near the gears of the horizontal stabilizer. “It could have locked up the gears,” Mr. Mester said.
...
Airlines ordered hundreds of the planes, which cost upward of $200 million each. Spurred by high demand, Boeing set up a new factory.

North Charleston was ideal in many ways. South Carolina has the lowest percentage of union representation in the nation, giving Boeing a potentially less expensive work force. South Carolina doled out nearly $1 billion in tax incentives, including $33 million to train local workers. Boeing pledged to create 3,800 jobs. While Boeing has nurtured generations of aerospace professionals in the Seattle area, there was no comparable work force in South Carolina. Instead, managers had to recruit from technical colleges in Tulsa, Okla., and Atlanta. Managers were also urged to not hire unionized employees from the Boeing factory in Everett, where the Dreamliner is also made, according to two former employees.
...
Mr. Barnett, the former quality manager, who goes by Swampy in a nod to his Louisiana roots, learned in 2016 that a senior manager had pulled a dented hydraulic tube from a scrap bin, he said. He said the tube, part of the central system controlling the plane’s movement, was installed on a Dreamliner. Mr. Barnett said the senior manager had told him, “Don’t worry about it.” He filed a complaint with human resources, company documents show. He also reported to management that defective parts had gone missing, raising the prospect that they had been installed in planes. His bosses, he said, told him to finish the paperwork on the missing parts without figuring out where they had gone.
...
Mr. Barnett was reprimanded in 2014 for documenting errors. In a performance review seen by The Times, a senior manager downgraded him for “using email to express process violations,” instead of engaging “F2F,” or face to face. He took that to mean he shouldn’t put problems in writing. The manager said Mr. Barnett needed to get better at “working in the gray areas and help find a way while maintaining compliance.”
Click to expand...
 
DrHoops said:
I was WAY wrong on this. I can’t believe Boeing would put an airplane in the sky with that kind of fault. The thought that it’s a software issue is just insane. I e read that American Airlines pilots had the same thing happen to them but were able to recover. I think Southwest did too.
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They may have had the new patch/updated SW sent by Boeing since the two crashes.
The Dreamliner had been delayed for so long which I am sure put financial or/and time pressures on Management to get the Max out prematurely.
 
That's the scary thing. Forcing airplanes out the door before they're ready.. Very scary.

sglowrider said:
They may have had the new patch/updated SW sent by Boeing since the two crashes.
The Dreamliner had been delayed for so long which I am sure put financial or/and time pressures on Management to get the Max out prematurely.
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Unfortunately, I'm chained to United because of my status. They're almost 100% Boeing besides a handful of older A320s and A319s. The A350s are supposed to arrive at some point.

sglowrider said:
Time to fly exclusively Airbus!! Maybe Quixote has a light bulb moment there! :rolleyes:
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Exhibit A of getting rid of pesky regulations.

Marvin the Martian said:
I would hope there will be an investigation in the FAA's approval process. Boeing touted the super fast speed of the Trump Administration's FAA when they were making big money. I think we should know if this super fast process skipped steps. Not necessarily to blame anyone, but to know what is required to catch flaws before a crash happens.

That article you shared yesterday, I think in the Malaysian thread, was fairly frightening. Assuming the people in the comments section claiming to be veteran pilots were veteran pilots, the prognosis isn't great.
Click to expand...
 
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Doomed 737 MAX’s pilots apparently followed Boeing’s emergency directions

The pilots of the Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX that crashed last month appear to have followed the emergency procedure laid out by both Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration — cutting off the suspect flight-control system — but could not regain control and avert the plunge that killed all 157 on board.


The good news for Boeing is that the proposed software fix announced for MCAS should prevent the failure that led to this scenario in the cockpit. “I think the MAX will be safe with the improved MCAS,” said Fehrm of Leeham.net.

The bad news for Boeing is twofold. First, the original MCAS design was flawed and appears to be the principal cause of the Lion Air crash. Second, the procedure it offered after that accident to keep planes safe now appears to have been woefully inadequate and may have doomed the Ethiopian Airlines jet.
On Wednesday the FAA, facing worldwide skepticism of its oversight, announced that it is establishing a team including foreign regulators to conduct a “comprehensive review of the certification of the automated flight control system on the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft.”
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Boeing didn't tell anyone when it removed the warning system from 737-Max.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/boeing-did-not-tell-removed-emergency-sensor

sglowrider said:
Doomed 737 MAX’s pilots apparently followed Boeing’s emergency directions

The pilots of the Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX that crashed last month appear to have followed the emergency procedure laid out by both Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration — cutting off the suspect flight-control system — but could not regain control and avert the plunge that killed all 157 on board.
Click to expand...
 
DrHoops said:
Boeing didn't tell anyone when it removed the warning system from 737-Max.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/boeing-did-not-tell-removed-emergency-sensor
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Corporate culture is broken.

There is a lot of 737 Max operators in China, Indonesia and UAE. I wonder if the commercial airlines can sue Boeing for the loss of income?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries

What's interesting is the 930 unidentified operators -- assume the bulk are private owners. Poor guys must have to suffer the indignity of flying commercial now albeit 1st Class tix, one must assume, for safety reasons.
 
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I read something today saying Southwest is considering the A320 now. WOW!

sglowrider said:
nervous.gif
nervous.gif
Corporate culture is broken.

There is a lot of 737 Max operators in China, Indonesia and UAE. I wonder if the commercial airlines can sue Boeing for the loss of income?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries

What's interesting is the 930 unidentified operators -- assume the bulk are private owners. Poor guys must have to suffer the indignity of flying commercial now albeit 1st Class tix, one must assume, for safety reasons.
Click to expand...
 
sglowrider said:
nervous.gif
nervous.gif
Corporate culture is broken.

There is a lot of 737 Max operators in China, Indonesia and UAE. I wonder if the commercial airlines can sue Boeing for the loss of income?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries

What's interesting is the 930 unidentified operators -- assume the bulk are private owners. Poor guys must have to suffer the indignity of flying commercial now albeit 1st Class tix, one must assume, for safety reasons.
Click to expand...

Sad thing is that a lot of budget airlines use the 737 max -- and they live on such thin margins (some say its a ponzie scheme in reality), dependent on high load factor. Grounding of the Max will certainly impact the airline industry for the next few years and consumer prices later.

American Airlines expects to lose $350 million because of 737 Max grounding
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ounding/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7ea0a6ce22eb
 
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There will definitely be lawsuits and BIG discounts on future deliveries.

sglowrider said:
Sad thing is that a lot of budget airlines use the 737 max -- and they live on such thin margins (some say its a ponzie scheme in reality), dependent on high load factor. Grounding of the Max will certainly impact the airline industry for the next few years and consumer prices later.

American Airlines expects to lose $350 million because of 737 Max grounding
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ounding/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7ea0a6ce22eb
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IAG (British Airways, Iberia, Aer Lingus, among others) bought 200 737 Max today at the Paris Airshow.

Shocker!
 
DrHoops said:
IAG (British Airways, Iberia, Aer Lingus, among others) bought 200 737 Max today at the Paris Airshow.

Shocker!
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Must have been sold at below cost. They have quite a few of them sitting around in the tarmacs of Seattle.

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Boeing can't deliver the 737 Max to customers, and now the planes are clogging up its storage lots

5cb4d49daefeef22201f4ee6-750-518.jpg

  • The global Boeing 737 Max fleet has been grounded since March 13 in response to the crashes of Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302 and Lion Air Flight JT610.
  • Boeing has suspended customer deliveries of the 737 Max, but the production of the plane has continued at a pace of 42 aircraft a month.
  • As a result, Boeing's storage lots are packed with undelivered 737 Max aircraft.
5cb4d8abaefeef1e83239aab-750-503.jpg

 
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