Biden opinion on drugs

stollcpa

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Mar 26, 2010
14,563
13,107
113
Yes, you're only hearing one side. Probation is a pain in the ass but it beats the alternative.

If she's a felon then he can't associate with her. Them's the rules. The court doesn't care that she's his squeeze.

Meetings with his probation officer are part of the deal. That's done on a regular basis, and is scheduled. It's not like they're just calling him in willy nilly. As long as his employer knew ahead of time about his circumstances and he's adhering to the schedule, I'm calling bullshit on the getting fired.

Community service is also part of the deal. Too bad he can't hang with his kids right now, but all he has to do is get the trash picked up or whatever he's doing and get it over with. The kids will still be there when that's done. Using your kids as an excuse to whine about your conditions of probation is lame.

I volunteer with substances abusers. They are given every opportunity to get their shit together, but most end up figuring out a way to fvck it up. The few success stories come from the ones who admit they fvcked up and take their medicine, no matter how bitter. That's what I meant when I said he had a long road ahead of him. It's rough to begin with, but eventually smooths out if you don't try and take any shortcuts.
Admire you volunteer to help these folks. I’ve tried to financially help this guy and another worker in same situation with the same client in Bloomington.

Sounds like I am hearing excuses that aren’t valid. I am now guessing the missed work isn’t alway the probation officer. I do know the one I mentioned above has been experiencing illness due to the drugs they keep changing to stop his appetite for the bad drugs. And using as excuse to miss work. Maybe he’s lying about that.

Again, Good on you for volunteering.
 

UncleMark

Hall of Famer
Sep 1, 2001
23,188
21,777
113
Admire you volunteer to help these folks. I’ve tried to financially help this guy and another worker in same situation with the same client in Bloomington.

Don't do that. It's called "enabling". Part of getting your shit together is getting your financial shit together.

Sounds like I am hearing excuses that aren’t valid. I am now guessing the missed work isn’t alway the probation officer. I do know the one I mentioned above has been experiencing illness due to the drugs they keep changing to stop his appetite for the bad drugs. And using as excuse to miss work. Maybe he’s lying about that.

I'm no clinician, but am not a fan of treating drug abusers with drugs. Call me old fashioned.
 

IUCrazy2

Hall of Famer
Mar 7, 2004
14,078
5,253
113
I can't believe he missed a chance to use 'moneyed interests'.

Matt Taibi has his finger on what I am trying to get across. We have a class that thinks they amount to the aristocracy in this country. You and I would each fall within that class. I am saying that we should have alarm bells going off right now because our society is aligning in such a way as to be detrimental to the American experiment. We are laying the foundation for revolt. We had both the left and right rioting last year about this stuff. Faith in the institutions is broken, getting draconian is not going to fix that broken trust, it will exacerbate it.
 

stollcpa

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Mar 26, 2010
14,563
13,107
113
Don't do that. It's called "enabling". Part of getting your shit together is getting your financial shit together.



I'm no clinician, but am not a fan of treating drug abusers with drugs. Call me old fashioned.
I am confused. I wouldn’t have expected your “old fashion” view of standing on your own two feet and correcting your situation. I am old fashion in my belief that in most cases hard work will get you through and our current administration that wants to forgive student loans and give free stuff to all is bull.

Until my first hand experience with my friend’s brother and his treatment by the probation department I would have been a hardass. I would have told her and her brother to get his head out of his ass, get on his own two feet, work hard and straighten out his life.

It appears us conservatives and liberals might be closer than we think if we quit shouting insults at each other.

I do admire your work with these people. I had a client who spent countless hours in the local jail counseling criminals. He spent millions starting a charity whose only purpose was to help criminals released from jail/prison get back into society. He was a Conservative Mennonite guy and took grief from many in his community for this “waste” of money and time. I watched as he was conned many times. When I asked him, he told me if he only helped one it would be worth it and he didn’t dwell on those who conned him. He died piloting his jet for its annual a few years ago. His legacy lives on with his charity but no one has taken his place with the hours he spent inside the jail face to face with inmates. .
 
Last edited:

IUCrazy2

Hall of Famer
Mar 7, 2004
14,078
5,253
113

Matt Taibi has his finger on what I am trying to get across. We have a class that thinks they amount to the aristocracy in this country. You and I would each fall within that class. I am saying that we should have alarm bells going off right now because our society is aligning in such a way as to be detrimental to the American experiment. We are laying the foundation for revolt. We had both the left and right rioting last year about this stuff. Faith in the institutions is broken, getting draconian is not going to fix that broken trust, it will exacerbate it.

Unsustainable. (Skip the first few paragraphs if you take issue with seeing Jill Biden get criticized, the meat of the article has really next to nothing to do with her.)
 

jsig

Senior
Apr 8, 2004
2,639
1,150
113
The government giving out student loans have driven up the costs of education. Allows schools to charge more because the government will give loans. The student takes the hit buried under some ridiculous debt. Texas instruments paid for my degree but companies often won't pay 100% now because of the costs. Once again the US federal govt. gets involved where they should not and makes it worse for all.
 

outside shooter

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2001
20,956
8,382
113
I have been down the path of trying to help a drug abuser recover and being duped into providing financial support.

BAD IDEA. It's generally money poured down a rat hole.

The guy I tried to help has (like me) a PhD in chemistry from IU and he worked for a major pharma company. His addictions cost him his job, his marriage, his livelihood, his home, and then he was on the street.

From a distance I thought that I could offer advice and some financial support, supposedly for very specific things, like medical bills that had gone to collection agencies for his son's health problems.

Flushed money
 

outside shooter

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2001
20,956
8,382
113
I'd heard rumors, whispers actually, that you held at least one advanced degree. It's good to finally learn the truth.
It's not a secret. Ph.D. 1991, on Bloomington campus from August 1987-December 1991

It is a bit numbing that a person's life can be wrecked by addiction after the extent of education, persistance, thoughtfulness, obstinance, and resourcefullness required to complete a PhD in the physical sciences.

Last I heard my firend was in and out of a shelter and trying to hold down a job in a coffee shop. I had helped him get a job as a fill-in middle school science teacher but I think that blew up, as he apparently stole things to support his addiction.
 

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
11,545
3,833
113
I have been down the path of trying to help a drug abuser recover and being duped into providing financial support.

BAD IDEA. It's generally money poured down a rat hole.

The guy I tried to help has (like me) a PhD in chemistry from IU and he worked for a major pharma company. His addictions cost him his job, his marriage, his livelihood, his home, and then he was on the street.

From a distance I thought that I could offer advice and some financial support, supposedly for very specific things, like medical bills that had gone to collection agencies for his son's health problems.

Flushed money

so true.

this is why addiction must be treated as a health issue, with govt financial backing, rather than a criminal justice issue, with the citizenry being involuntarily situated between an addict and his drugs, and the addict being unable to stop at anything short of getting his drugs, or the money for, with terrible consequenses all around for all.
 

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
11,545
3,833
113

Unsustainable. (Skip the first few paragraphs if you take issue with seeing Jill Biden get criticized, the meat of the article has really next to nothing to do with her.)

imo, the inability to convince all to get vaccinated, is because the govt on both sides has done nothing but lie their asses off non stop on most everything regarding this whole subject, and withholding all pertinent information they want withheld, no matter how great the public's need to know, thus when actually saying what they at least hope is the truth, they have just already lost all credibility and trust.

that said, nobody knows for sure which is the greater threat for non old people, the vax or the covid, and any honest discussion on the subject should start with the admission that the long term consequences of the vax or covid, are yet not known for fact by anybody, as it's impossible to know long term in the short term.

that said, if the no vax crowd starts seeing their similar age friends and family and coworkers start having bad covid experiences, i have no doubt that will change their thoughts on the subject for many, and they will get vaxed.

until such time, those playing the waiting game, will continue to do so.
 

outside shooter

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2001
20,956
8,382
113
the govt on both sides has done nothing but lie their asses off non stop on most everything regarding this whole subject
it's frustrating that so many people don't understand the most basic aspects of science, in this case, medical science.

The smart money all along really is have science guide public action. Thus, decisions are based upon the science, as we know it, at the time. But more new and hopefully better information is always being gathered, new findings are developed, new conclusions then seem more reasonable, and so the advice will change.

It does not mean that the people relying on the scientific knowledge as it existed 3 months ago lied to you 3 months ago when they gave advice that is different for the advice being given today today. The data now points in a new direction. the situation changed or the understanding changed.

Three months ago it looked like a lead-pipe lock that we'd get to 75% vaccination and life would be returning to normal. We were told to expect that. Party summer!

But we didn't get to 75% vaccination, or even close, a new variant with 1000x the viral load emerged, and it became dominant all over. Some areas didn't get to HALF of the vaccination rate we need. Those places are looking pretty bad now. So those places are being told that their life shouldn't return to normal.

Nobody is telling the people of Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire to mask up and lock down, mostly because they got 80% of their population vaccinated. Even some brain dead plague monkey Trumpers somehow got vaccinated up there. I don't know how they did it in "Live Free or Die" country, but it was pretty damn impressive.
 

hookyIU1990

All-American
Gold Member
Sep 26, 2007
6,535
8,548
113
The smart money all along really is have science guide public action. Thus, decisions are based upon the science, as we know it, at the time. But more new and hopefully better information is always being gathered, new findings are developed, new conclusions then seem more reasonable, and so the advice will change.
Like the advice given at the beginning that masks won't help, then later admitting that that advice wasn't driven by science, but rather a concern about mask and PPE shortages for healthcare workers? AKA a lie. I can't believe I'm agreeing with IGW, but it's been a series of lies from the start.
 

mcmurtry66

Hall of Famer
Mar 14, 2019
10,772
8,573
113
it's frustrating that so many people don't understand the most basic aspects of science, in this case, medical science.

The smart money all along really is have science guide public action. Thus, decisions are based upon the science, as we know it, at the time. But more new and hopefully better information is always being gathered, new findings are developed, new conclusions then seem more reasonable, and so the advice will change.

It does not mean that the people relying on the scientific knowledge as it existed 3 months ago lied to you 3 months ago when they gave advice that is different for the advice being given today today. The data now points in a new direction. the situation changed or the understanding changed.

Three months ago it looked like a lead-pipe lock that we'd get to 75% vaccination and life would be returning to normal. We were told to expect that. Party summer!

But we didn't get to 75% vaccination, or even close, a new variant with 1000x the viral load emerged, and it became dominant all over. Some areas didn't get to HALF of the vaccination rate we need. Those places are looking pretty bad now. So those places are being told that their life shouldn't return to normal.

Nobody is telling the people of Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire to mask up and lock down, mostly because they got 80% of their population vaccinated. Even some brain dead plague monkey Trumpers somehow got vaccinated up there. I don't know how they did it in "Live Free or Die" country, but it was pretty damn impressive.
Lol science guide public action? the cdc? Yeah no. Science is a factor to be considered in weighing public action
 

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
11,545
3,833
113
Like the advice given at the beginning that masks won't help, then later admitting that that advice wasn't driven by science, but rather a concern about mask and PPE shortages for healthcare workers? AKA a lie. I can't believe I'm agreeing with IGW, but it's been a series of lies from the start.

or that the virus was engineered in a lab, and deliberately engineered to be as viral and deadly as possible as an intellectual exercise, and we were helping fund it, and funding more of the same as we speak..

and that the guy in charge of that criminally negligent insanity is the nation's spokesperson on the subject, (WTF??), and being pushed as some kind of hero or someone to listen to on the subject, when he himself has not only been a part of this criminally negligent insanity, but done nothing but lie non stop since day one.

as for people not often agreeing with things i say, i'll stake my track record here against anyone's, and my lack of party BS bias.

that said, most of the time, party BS bias seems to be what everyone is looking for, and not being happy when they don't find it.

and they don't find it in my posts at all.

sorry to disappoint everyone.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: outside shooter

outside shooter

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2001
20,956
8,382
113
The advice against wearing masks at the start was based on

1) not yet knowing if they would help or not, and to what extent,
2) knowing for sure that there was a severe medical mask shortage;
3) knowing that the people most affected in China seemed to be those in health care.

So if point 1 is a 50-50 call, you also consider the consequences of being wrong relating to #2 and #3.

When point 1 is settled by scientific knowledge in favor of wearing masks, you recommend it and try to minimize the mask shortage.

Neither the first nor the second set of advice was a lie. The change was driven by new knowledge.

But you know that.
 

outside shooter

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2001
20,956
8,382
113
sorry to disappoint everyone.
how's the reception?

IMG_3053-ANIMATION_large.gif
 

IUCrazy2

Hall of Famer
Mar 7, 2004
14,078
5,253
113
or that the virus was engineered in a lab, and deliberately engineered to be as viral and deadly as possible as an intellectual exercise, and we were helping fund it, and funding more of the same as we speak..

and that the guy in charge of that criminally negligent insanity is the nation's spokesperson on the subject, (WTF??), and being pushed as some kind of hero or someone to listen to on the subject, when he himself has not only been a part of this criminally negligent insanity, but done nothing but lie non stop since day one.

as for people not often agreeing with things i say, i'll stake my track record here against anyone's, and my lack of party BS bias.

that said, most of the time, party BS bias seems to be what everyone is looking for, and not being happy when they don't find it.

and they don't find it in my posts at all.

sorry to disappoint everyone.
For myself, I think you often hit correctly on the problem but I disagree with you on the solution to the problems (at least based on posts).

I think it is helpful that we can at least do that (agree on the problem).
 

UncleMark

Hall of Famer
Sep 1, 2001
23,188
21,777
113
It is a bit numbing that a person's life can be wrecked by addiction after the extent of education, persistance, thoughtfulness, obstinance, and resourcefullness required to complete a PhD in the physical sciences.

I've worked with any number of prominent, (once) successful, highly educated people -- names people here in Bton would recognize. There seems to be a specific physiology that takes to booze or drugs in a qualitatively different fashion than the population at large. Ones eductional level or socio-economic background doesn't change that.

Last I heard my firend was in and out of a shelter and trying to hold down a job in a coffee shop. I had helped him get a job as a fill-in middle school science teacher but I think that blew up, as he apparently stole things to support his addiction.

The key is getting the abuser to the point where he wants to stay sober -- long enough that the siren song is muted by the tangible positive results of the (usually forced) abstainance he's had to endure. That takes a much linger time that what you get out of a 28 day treatment or 90 day outpatient rehab. Here in Bton the drug court option that many offenders are offered is a two year program. Those who finish have a relatively decent success rate of continued sobriety. But sadly, many don't finish.
 

hookyIU1990

All-American
Gold Member
Sep 26, 2007
6,535
8,548
113
In his own words. Although he's quick to generalize and lump his statement into "many people were saying this" when asked why we were told not to use masks early on.

“Well, the reason for that is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N-95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply, And we wanted to make sure that the people, namely the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected.”

 

UncleMark

Hall of Famer
Sep 1, 2001
23,188
21,777
113
The government giving out student loans have driven up the costs of education. Allows schools to charge more because the government will give loans. The student takes the hit buried under some ridiculous debt.

The fix is really simple. Just make the schools responsible for a portion of the default amount. That will put an end to Comp Lit Masters with a $200K debt load.
 

bawlmer

All-American
Gold Member
Dec 12, 2010
6,213
4,509
113
In his own words. Although he's quick to generalize and lump his statement into "many people were saying this" when asked why we were told not to use masks early on.

“Well, the reason for that is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N-95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply, And we wanted to make sure that the people, namely the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected.”

I pretty much knew this in retrospect, but it pisses me off. Our family took a trip in March 2020 thinking the key thing was to wipe everything down. If they explained then that masks were essential, just unavailable, we wouldn't have traveled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hookyIU1990

UncleMark

Hall of Famer
Sep 1, 2001
23,188
21,777
113
I pretty much knew this in retrospect, but it pisses me off. Our family took a trip in March 2020 thinking the key thing was to wipe everything down. If they explained then that masks were essential, just unavailable, we wouldn't have traveled.
I think what fooled everyone was not knowing initially that the virus could be transmitted unwittingly by the asymptomatic. Health care workers were dealing with obviously sick people, while the rest of us were unknowingly breathing in the virus from people who were unknowingly infected and were unknowingly spreading it every time they exhaled.
 

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
11,545
3,833
113
I've worked with any number of prominent, (once) successful, highly educated people -- names people here in Bton would recognize. There seems to be a specific physiology that takes to booze or drugs in a qualitatively different fashion than the population at large. Ones eductional level or socio-economic background doesn't change that.



The key is getting the abuser to the point where he wants to stay sober -- long enough that the siren song is muted by the tangible positive results of the (usually forced) abstainance he's had to endure. That takes a much linger time that what you get out of a 28 day treatment or 90 day outpatient rehab. Here in Bton the drug court option that many offenders are offered is a two year program. Those who finish have a relatively decent success rate of continued sobriety. But sadly, many don't finish.

maybe if people really wanted to be cured of horrible diseases, they'd have more success at it.

or perhaps desire to be better isn't the issue.

an addicts craving for his drug is not so much different than the craving for air on Mars in the movie Total Recall.

any proposed solution with "court" or "prison" in it, isn't working in the slightest, and the problem gets worse by the day.

this is a health issue, not a criminal justice issue, and needs addressed as such.

that even Joe Biden can't publicly admit this, makes him look like a total POS.

after a 40 plus yr total failure war, sold out prisons, and ever climbing associated violent crime rates, you'd think the light would go on some people's heads that we're doing this all wrong, yet it just doesn't seem to.

of all the ways we could attack this problem, it would be impossible to attack it any less effectively, in every way, than we have.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Joe_Hoopsier

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
11,545
3,833
113
I think what fooled everyone was not knowing initially that the virus could be transmitted unwittingly by the asymptomatic. Health care workers were dealing with obviously sick people, while the rest of us were unknowingly breathing in the virus from people who were unknowingly infected and were unknowingly spreading it every time they exhaled.

or perhaps they absolutely knew much they pretended they didn't, and by "they", i don't mean the governors or healthcare workers..

how beyond belief naive is everybody, those running the govt response were involved with funding the engineering of the virus.

and who in their right mind believed 6 ft was ever a safe distance, when you can smell burnt popcorn 2 rooms away, for an hour or more.

lies, lies, and more lies, and heads literally need to roll.

and yet we're doing more of this insane research and engineering as we speak.

those in charge should never be in charge of anything, ever, combine stupidity beyond belief, with dishonesty beyond belief, and total and complete lack of any judgement beyond belief.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe_Hoopsier

UncleMark

Hall of Famer
Sep 1, 2001
23,188
21,777
113
maybe if people really wanted to be cured of horrible diseases, they have more success at it.
[...]
any proposed solution with "court" or "prison" in it, isn't working in the slightest, and the problem gets worse by the day.

No dependent substance abuser wakes up and decides he wants to get out from under. He may acknowledge he needs to do something, that he must do something, but the want doesn't come until one achieves enough sober time to understand that sober living beats dependent living. The courts can play a positive role in providing the structure needed to achieve a substantial period of abstinence. People won't respond to the carrots until they can experience them. In the interim, sticks can help.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Maximus Carter

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
11,545
3,833
113
No dependent substance abuser wakes up and decides he wants to get out from under. He may acknowledge he needs to do something, that he must do something, but the want doesn't come until one achieves enough sober time to understand that sober living beats dependent living. The courts can play a positive role in providing the structure needed to achieve a substantial period of abstinence. People won't respond to the carrots until they can experience them. In the interim, sticks can help.

hows that workin out?

and how badly on every level does something have to fail, before you figure it out?

and don't quote me out of context, when doing so deliberately and completely misrepresents what i said.
 

jsig

Senior
Apr 8, 2004
2,639
1,150
113
The fix is really simple. Just make the schools responsible for a portion of the default amount. That will put an end to Comp Lit Masters with a $200K debt load.
So we put the blame on the universities and make them take the hit? What next when this drives the schools into the ground will Gestapo Joe print free money to bail them out. How bout just get rid of the federal govt from the process and let the universities compete for students. The federal govt has been blaming and making american people scapegoats pay for their dumbass mistakes my whole lifetime. How bout we find out in govt. pushed for these govt. loans and call them felons and ruin their lives to give them a taste of their own medicine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe_Hoopsier
Jun 29, 2021
4
2
3
No dependent substance abuser wakes up and decides he wants to get out from under. He may acknowledge he needs to do something, that he must do something, but the want doesn't come until one achieves enough sober time to understand that sober living beats dependent living. The courts can play a positive role in providing the structure needed to achieve a substantial period of abstinence. People won't respond to the carrots until they can experience them. In the interim, sticks can help.
I absolutely agree with you. It is worth remembering that the thesis that we need to get rid of the Federal Government and allow universities to compete for students is a very promising idea that we should all think about and try to implement it in our education system today. We have not yet solved a lot of drug-related problems. At https://blablawriting.net/essay-examples/community-service, I read several studies showing that community service helps some people who commit crimes after drug overdose to get rid of addiction.
 
Last edited: