Belichick & Saban

[mushroomgod_1]

I wasn't watching by the time this happened, but I saw on you tube where Saban was screaming at his OC late in the game last night when the game was basically won.

Comparing and contrasting these two......I always think of Belichick as being an evil genius, just being smarter than anyone else scheme-wise, whereas Saban appears to be the master at organization. What they appear to have in common is that both would sell their grandmother to win a football game. They demand winning rather than hoping or expecting to win. They demand effort and intelligent play. They both know that players and fans will let a coach get away with anything as long as they win. They get loyalty from players even though both would throw any single player under the bus to win a game. They do seem to have somewhat different personal approaches---Belichick seems to be much less likely to get in people's faces than Saban.

Let me relate this back to IU.........Coach Allen is probably a much better person than either of these guys, but he lacks their ruthlessness, imo. His focus is on the process (ie...family), whereas these guys focus on the result (ie...winning). In this sense, Coach Allen may be a little too forgiving and not demanding enough----maybe like a Chuck Pagano? I'm trying to think of a couple of player-oriented, high energy guys who have been very successful---maybe John Madden or Pete Carroll? To those who really like Coach Allen and think he will be successful......what highly successful coach(es) can he be compared to?

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I wasn't watching by the time this happened, but I saw on you tube where Saban was screaming at his OC late in the game last night when the game was basically won.

Comparing and contrasting these two......I always think of Belichick as being an evil genius, just being smarter than anyone else scheme-wise, whereas Saban appears to be the master at organization. What they appear to have in common is that both would sell their grandmother to win a football game. They demand winning rather than hoping or expecting to win. They demand effort and intelligent play. They both know that players and fans will let a coach get away with anything as long as they win. They get loyalty from players even though both would throw any single player under the bus to win a game. They do seem to have somewhat different personal approaches---Belichick seems to be much less likely to get in people's faces than Saban.

Let me relate this back to IU.........Coach Allen is probably a much better person than either of these guys, but he lacks their ruthlessness, imo. His focus is on the process (ie...family), whereas these guys focus on the result (ie...winning). In this sense, Coach Allen may be a little too forgiving and not demanding enough----maybe like a Chuck Pagano? I'm trying to think of a couple of player-oriented, high energy guys who have been very successful---maybe John Madden or Pete Carroll? To those who really like Coach Allen and think he will be successful......what highly successful coach(es) can he be compared to?

After I wrote this, I did think of the comparison to Scott Frost, who does put a lot of emphasis on loyalty. The comparison breaks down because he's more stoic, and seems to have a more creative football mind ala Brohm. Brohm is kinda like Frost, minus the loyalty part.

 

[RBB89]

I wasn't watching by the time this happened, but I saw on you tube where Saban was screaming at his OC late in the game last night when the game was basically won.

Comparing and contrasting these two......I always think of Belichick as being an evil genius, just being smarter than anyone else scheme-wise, whereas Saban appears to be the master at organization. What they appear to have in common is that both would sell their grandmother to win a football game. They demand winning rather than hoping or expecting to win. They demand effort and intelligent play. They both know that players and fans will let a coach get away with anything as long as they win. They get loyalty from players even though both would throw any single player under the bus to win a game. They do seem to have somewhat different personal approaches---Belichick seems to be much less likely to get in people's faces than Saban.

Let me relate this back to IU.........Coach Allen is probably a much better person than either of these guys, but he lacks their ruthlessness, imo. His focus is on the process (ie...family), whereas these guys focus on the result (ie...winning). In this sense, Coach Allen may be a little too forgiving and not demanding enough----maybe like a Chuck Pagano? I'm trying to think of a couple of player-oriented, high energy guys who have been very successful---maybe John Madden or Pete Carroll? To those who really like Coach Allen and think he will be successful......what highly successful coach(es) can he be compared to?

Allen doesn’t curse, but gets in the faces of players all the time. There were people here getting on him for being “too harsh” on Layne this year during the Rutgers game for an error during punt coverage.

I honestly have no idea what “focusing on the process” versus “focusing on the result” is supposed to mean. Nick Saban’s big mantra is literally “trust the process.” He and BB are successful because they focus on details and preparation.

Saban and BB have been head coaches for years and years and years. You may want to go back and look at what people were saying about them after their first years as head coaches. And BB got fired by the Browns. Since Allen has been here, he’s drastically improved the special teams and defense. Let the guy work.

 

[td75]

Tony Dungy did very, very well in Tampa Bay and Indianapolis with a unique style. Dungy wasn't a high energy guy though, was he??

Dungy's success is very interesting, many consider Gruden's Super Bowl win in Tampa to be Dungy's foundation/creation. Couple that with his success in Indy and you've got a GREAT coach.

I think Allen's two strengths appear to be defense & recruiting. His weaknesses appear to be related to the offensive side of the ball. I'm sure even Saban has weaknesses.

 

[turney333]

I wasn't watching by the time this happened, but I saw on you tube where Saban was screaming at his OC late in the game last night when the game was basically won.

Comparing and contrasting these two......I always think of Belichick as being an evil genius, just being smarter than anyone else scheme-wise, whereas Saban appears to be the master at organization. What they appear to have in common is that both would sell their grandmother to win a football game. They demand winning rather than hoping or expecting to win. They demand effort and intelligent play. They both know that players and fans will let a coach get away with anything as long as they win. They get loyalty from players even though both would throw any single player under the bus to win a game. They do seem to have somewhat different personal approaches---Belichick seems to be much less likely to get in people's faces than Saban.

Let me relate this back to IU.........Coach Allen is probably a much better person than either of these guys, but he lacks their ruthlessness, imo. His focus is on the process (ie...family), whereas these guys focus on the result (ie...winning). In this sense, Coach Allen may be a little too forgiving and not demanding enough----maybe like a Chuck Pagano? I'm trying to think of a couple of player-oriented, high energy guys who have been very successful---maybe John Madden or Pete Carroll? To those who really like Coach Allen and think he will be successful......what highly successful coach(es) can he be compared to?

I'd probably describe Allen as a more energetic Tony Dungy.

Also, the million dollar question is whether or not Saban/Belichick would have the same success at another location.

They are certainly great coaches, but the dynasty level success of certain coaches have usually stems from many other factors as well which all play off eachother. e.g. The Patriots under Belichick have never had to search for a QB, and waste draft picks and trades in the process.

 

[ORG]

I wasn't watching by the time this happened, but I saw on you tube where Saban was screaming at his OC late in the game last night when the game was basically won.

Comparing and contrasting these two......I always think of Belichick as being an evil genius, just being smarter than anyone else scheme-wise, whereas Saban appears to be the master at organization. What they appear to have in common is that both would sell their grandmother to win a football game. They demand winning rather than hoping or expecting to win. They demand effort and intelligent play. They both know that players and fans will let a coach get away with anything as long as they win. They get loyalty from players even though both would throw any single player under the bus to win a game. They do seem to have somewhat different personal approaches---Belichick seems to be much less likely to get in people's faces than Saban.

Let me relate this back to IU.........Coach Allen is probably a much better person than either of these guys, but he lacks their ruthlessness, imo. His focus is on the process (ie...family), whereas these guys focus on the result (ie...winning). In this sense, Coach Allen may be a little too forgiving and not demanding enough----maybe like a Chuck Pagano? I'm trying to think of a couple of player-oriented, high energy guys who have been very successful---maybe John Madden or Pete Carroll? To those who really like Coach Allen and think he will be successful......what highly successful coach(es) can he be compared to?

Not for results but for his style of coaching I would say Bill Parcells.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Not for results but for his style of coaching I would say Bill Parcells.

Good call there....Bill Walsh was also a really good person, kinda of a nice Belichick.

What about Joe Gibbs?

 

[Superstar84b]

I wasn't watching by the time this happened, but I saw on you tube where Saban was screaming at his OC late in the game last night when the game was basically won.

Comparing and contrasting these two......I always think of Belichick as being an evil genius, just being smarter than anyone else scheme-wise, whereas Saban appears to be the master at organization. What they appear to have in common is that both would sell their grandmother to win a football game. They demand winning rather than hoping or expecting to win. They demand effort and intelligent play. They both know that players and fans will let a coach get away with anything as long as they win. They get loyalty from players even though both would throw any single player under the bus to win a game. They do seem to have somewhat different personal approaches---Belichick seems to be much less likely to get in people's faces than Saban.

Let me relate this back to IU.........Coach Allen is probably a much better person than either of these guys, but he lacks their ruthlessness, imo. His focus is on the process (ie...family), whereas these guys focus on the result (ie...winning). In this sense, Coach Allen may be a little too forgiving and not demanding enough----maybe like a Chuck Pagano? I'm trying to think of a couple of player-oriented, high energy guys who have been very successful---maybe John Madden or Pete Carroll? To those who really like Coach Allen and think he will be successful......what highly successful coach(es) can he be compared to?

Stephen Houston personally said that the patriots aren’t exactly like that, although he was cut. On one hand, Belichick is about winning, but so many players stay loyal to him long after they’re done, because the pats and Belichick do actually care about people. Now, you’re right, the flip side of that is that they are ruthless as well, and demand results. If you don’t do your job, you’re gone the next day. But I don’t think that makes you a bad person. From what I’ve studied about Belichick, he will help players off of the field more than a lot of coaches, which is why 20 years later people remain loyal and don’t have anything bad to say about the guy.

In terms of Allen, it’s too early to tell if he’s a Belichick Guy, and “too nice”. It’s been one year. The fact that he let the stregnth and conditioning coach go shows some level of courage to do what it takes to get the job done. He went out and got his guy, and did what he felt he needed to do. That’s encouraging to me. I think that he can emphasize family and still be tough as nails and demand execution from his players. I think that he can be detached when he needs to be. Having played on that defense under knorr, I can see that Allen DEMANDED more from the players, so I don’t see any signs that he’s “too nice” for the job. I do see your point though, and I’m not writing it off. It’s just too early to know, and he has shown SOME signs that he can do what he needs to do to do what he feels is best for the team.

 

[Superstar84b]

I'd probably describe Allen as a more energetic Tony Dungy.

Also, the million dollar question is whether or not Saban/Belichick would have the same success at another location.

They are certainly great coaches, but the dynasty level success of certain coaches have usually stems from many other factors as well which all play off eachother. e.g. The Patriots under Belichick have never had to search for a QB, and waste draft picks and trades in the process.

Well the two locations they’re at let them coach their way. So yes, I’d say that location matters, insofar as you don’t have people telling you how to coach/micromanaging. But if they’re allowed to do their thing, they could be successful anywhere because they’re great teachers. Robert Kraft specifically says he stays the hell out of BB’s way. Scott Pioli, the former pats GM, kinda echoed that when he visited IU. If you have a good philosophy and the owner/school president/AD don’t mess with your system, you can have success.

I get the impression that’s FG is going to let CTA coach the way that he wants, and manage the team the way that he wants to. That’s at least what it looks like from the outside looking in. It appears as if they have full trust in CTA, similar to how they trust Saban in Alabama or BB in New England. FG seemed confident in this hire, more so than he did with Wilson. So I’d wager that they back off and let CTA do his thing, which is in the best interest of the program.

 

[turney333]

Well the two locations they’re at let them coach their way. So yes, I’d say that location matters, insofar as you don’t have people telling you how to coach/micromanaging. But if they’re allowed to do their thing, they could be successful anywhere because they’re great teachers. Robert Kraft specifically says he stays the hell out of BB’s way. Scott Pioli, the former pats GM, kinda echoed that when he visited IU. If you have a good philosophy and the owner/school president/AD don’t mess with your system, you can have success.

I get the impression that’s FG is going to let CTA coach the way that he wants, and manage the team the way that he wants to. That’s at least what it looks like from the outside looking in. It appears as if they have full trust in CTA, similar to how they trust Saban in Alabama or BB in New England. FG seemed confident in this hire, more so than he did with Wilson. So I’d wager that they back off and let CTA do his thing, which is in the best interest of the program.

I'd agree that admin staying out of the way is important, but also, admin staying out of the way is almost always the byproduct of the coach winning and having success in the first place.

I think my point is that looking at the Patriots as a whole for example, Belichick, Brady, and the admin have created something much greater than the sum of their individual value.

Without Brady and an overall solid team, Belichick, could possibly still be coaching, but likely wouldn't have lasted more than 8 or so years at NE because there would have likely been a few down years that he wouldn't have been able to survive.

And without Belichick and the overall solid team, Brady likely would still have had a long and high level career, but likely wouldn't have had the same cumulative success.

And not having to wheel and deal for a QB, and not having to change coaching systems, the NE admin was able to maintain a complete, solid roster.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

Stephen Houston personally said that the patriots aren’t exactly like that, although he was cut. On one hand, Belichick is about winning, but so many players stay loyal to him long after they’re done, because the pats and Belichick do actually care about people. Now, you’re right, the flip side of that is that they are ruthless as well, and demand results. If you don’t do your job, you’re gone the next day. But I don’t think that makes you a bad person. From what I’ve studied about Belichick, he will help players off of the field more than a lot of coaches, which is why 20 years later people remain loyal and don’t have anything bad to say about the guy.

In terms of Allen, it’s too early to tell if he’s a Belichick Guy, and “too nice”. It’s been one year. The fact that he let the stregnth and conditioning coach go shows some level of courage to do what it takes to get the job done. He went out and got his guy, and did what he felt he needed to do. That’s encouraging to me. I think that he can emphasize family and still be tough as nails and demand execution from his players. I think that he can be detached when he needs to be. Having played on that defense under knorr, I can see that Allen DEMANDED more from the players, so I don’t see any signs that he’s “too nice” for the job. I do see your point though, and I’m not writing it off. It’s just too early to know, and he has shown SOME signs that he can do what he needs to do to do what he feels is best for the team.

I agree that it is simply to early to determine what effect his style will have...is he too “nice” is he too “demanding”? We just don’t know but have seen indicators that point in both directions at times....

The reason I think that some on the board are so sensitive to any sign of softening in the football approach is simply because we have had way too many years with that approach used at IU. So when “some” on here go ballistic defending the admin and coaches people need to relax. The older fellas know what a slippery slope it is for IU to revert so people are hyper-vigilant about it. This means being critical at times ....

I think it would be interesting to reflect on where this “softening “ feeling actually started among fans. I think since RMK was dismissed there has been a feeling amongst the fanbase as a whole that we have become soft in our approach in the two big sports at IU. This isn’t meant to become a basketball discussion, but I do think in this instance, it has had an effect on the fans perception of the administration as a whole....

 

[Superstar84b]

I'd agree that admin staying out of the way is important, but also, admin staying out of the way is almost always the byproduct of the coach winning and having success in the first place.

I think my point is that looking at the Patriots as a whole for example, Belichick, Brady, and the admin have created something much greater than the sum of their individual value.

Without Brady and an overall solid team, Belichick, could possibly still be coaching, but likely wouldn't have lasted more than 8 or so years at NE because there would have likely been a few down years that he wouldn't have been able to survive.

And without Belichick and the overall solid team, Brady likely would still have had a long and high level career, but likely wouldn't have had the same cumulative success.

And not having to wheel and deal for a QB, and not having to change coaching systems, the NE admin was able to maintain a complete, solid roster.

That’s one way to look at it. I’ve heard people approach this in similar ways to you in regards to program/team building, and specifically with New England. I’ve always viewed it slightly differently... no other team in the NFL was nuts enough to take Brady, and bench someone of Drew Bledsoe’s caliber to begin with. And it’s not just at quarterback... The patriots take a ton of guys that NO ONE else in the league will take. James Harrison at 39 years old is the most recent example. So it is true that B.B. owes a lot of his success to Brady, but I don’t see anyone else drafting him to begin with, and then proceeding to bench a Hall of Fame QB that took the team to the Super Bowl just a few years prior and was still playing at a decent level (Bledsoe went on to have many good years after, and they traded him to a division rival... who else does that?)

That’s rare. It’s probably time for the colts to cut bait with Andrew Luck. But is there a coach willing to do that? It’s rare to find a coach that emotionally detached. I’d also note that B.B. got this ability to make crazy decisions before he started winning. Robert Kraft ran bill parcels out of town by overreaching, and then he ran Pete Carroll out of town. When BB took over, Robert craft was wise enough to stay the hell out of the way, and this was after B.B. got fired. When he benched Bledsoe, he was coming off of a 5-11 season, and Tom Brady wasn’t Tom Brady yet. BB had that freedom from day one.

How’s that relevant to IU? Well FG should probably take a note from Robert Kraft and stay out of CTA’s way. But it appears that just like Kraft, FG learned after the CKW decision to 1. Hire someone you trust. 2. Don’t micromanage him. It appears that FG is doing that. Let’s remember that CTA hasn’t “earned” that leeway, and is coming off of a 5-7 season, but FG appears to still trust him. That’s a positive to me, because There’s no upside to upper management being overly involved. Similar to how Kraft trusted B.B., with no reason to do so after a 5-11 first season, other than pure confidence in the man.

Lastly my issue with IU recruiting which is relevant to this subject, has simply been taking guys based on Star ratings. It’s my subjective opinion that IU, fans, and alumni DO pay a little too much attention to ratings and a guys reputation, and that’s dangerous at a school like IU that isn’t going to get upper level talent right now anyway. Like Belichick, I think that IU has to get players who may be rated lower, and find gems/build up. No surprise that Kirk Ferentz is a former B.B. assistant and does that, similar to the patriots. I thought that passing on Riley Neal was a horrible mistake a few years back, although Lagow/Austin king were rated higher. I felt as if CKW went out of his way to boost ratings, and didn’t evaluate if a guy could actually play in that system. Don’t take that too literally. Obviously CKW upgraded the talent, but as his classes went on I’m saying it looked like he took more and more guys who were simply rated higher, and then would tout the higher recruiting rankings. My hope for CTA is to actually take more of a Billechick/Kirk Ferentz approach to recruiting and scrap the ratings. There’s talent in Indiana, you just have to search for it/develop it. And it’s going to piss fans and alumni off initially (understandably so to an extent), but I think CTA has to do that if he’s going to get IU to the next level. How many players has Belichick cut/traded and it pissed people off? A lot. But sometimes you do have to go with your gut and take players who regardless of ratings, can ball. And I think that CKW got away from that as time went on, and I’m hoping CTA can correct that. That’s all subjective, but the impression that I got from hearing what CKW actually said, seeing the “higher rated” guys in person, and then seeing how some lower rated guys turned out at other programs. And then watching Iowa or New England, there’s a totally different approach.

Now, based off of CTA’s first class, I’d say he’s more of a billechick recruiter, than a CKW type. May have a ton of three stars, but it looks like the players are literally perfect matches for the system, particularly at defensive end, and TJ ivy at TE pop out to me. He may also have more leverage to do his own thing in recruiting than CKW had, because again, FG seems to have more confidence in this man.

 

[mobilehoosier]

If you have to micromanage a person you pay millions of dollars to each year they are not the right person for the job!
We went the Coordinator route once again. Allen deserves his shot. I'd love to see him be wildly successful.
At some point while I can still see the TV and /or go to a game; I'd love to see IU buck up for a proven winner.
Go Hoosiers!

 

[RBB89]

If you have to micromanage a person you pay millions of dollars to each year they are not the right person for the job!
We went the Coordinator route once again. Allen deserves his shot. I'd love to see him be wildly successful.
At some point while I can still see the TV and /or go to a game; I'd love to see IU buck up for a proven winner.
Go Hoosiers!

What “proven winner” is going to come here to play in a stadium that is 25% empty, and where the same fans want to run coaches out of town after their first season? Just get a solid coach. Do you think Oklahoma fans are whining about their former coordinator head coach right now because he wasn’t a huge name? Plenty of assistants have gone on to become really good head coaches. It is hardly unusual to hire an assistant to be the head coach.

One thing that drives me crazy about our fans is the obsession with names. Not whether they are actually a good coach (or good fit), but getting the biggest name possible. That’s not how you build a winning program. It seems to me that many people are more interested in winning the off-season than actually winning games.

 

[turney333]

That’s one way to look at it. I’ve heard people approach this in similar ways to you in regards to program/team building, and specifically with New England. I’ve always viewed it slightly differently... no other team in the NFL was nuts enough to take Brady, and bench someone of Drew Bledsoe’s caliber to begin with. And it’s not just at quarterback... The patriots take a ton of guys that NO ONE else in the league will take. James Harrison at 39 years old is the most recent example. So it is true that B.B. owes a lot of his success to Brady, but I don’t see anyone else drafting him to begin with, and then proceeding to bench a Hall of Fame QB that took the team to the Super Bowl just a few years prior and was still playing at a decent level (Bledsoe went on to have many good years after, and they traded him to a division rival... who else does that?)

That’s rare. It’s probably time for the colts to cut bait with Andrew Luck. But is there a coach willing to do that? It’s rare to find a coach that emotionally detached. I’d also note that B.B. got this ability to make crazy decisions before he started winning. Robert Kraft ran bill parcels out of town by overreaching, and then he ran Pete Carroll out of town. When BB took over, Robert craft was wise enough to stay the hell out of the way, and this was after B.B. got fired. When he benched Bledsoe, he was coming off of a 5-11 season, and Tom Brady wasn’t Tom Brady yet. BB had that freedom from day one.

How’s that relevant to IU? Well FG should probably take a note from Robert Kraft and stay out of CTA’s way. But it appears that just like Kraft, FG learned after the CKW decision to 1. Hire someone you trust. 2. Don’t micromanage him. It appears that FG is doing that. Let’s remember that CTA hasn’t “earned” that leeway, and is coming off of a 5-7 season, but FG appears to still trust him. That’s a positive to me, because There’s no upside to upper management being overly involved. Similar to how Kraft trusted B.B., with no reason to do so after a 5-11 first season, other than pure confidence in the man.

Lastly my issue with IU recruiting which is relevant to this subject, has simply been taking guys based on Star ratings. It’s my subjective opinion that IU, fans, and alumni DO pay a little too much attention to ratings and a guys reputation, and that’s dangerous at a school like IU that isn’t going to get upper level talent right now anyway. Like Belichick, I think that IU has to get players who may be rated lower, and find gems/build up. No surprise that Kirk Ferentz is a former B.B. assistant and does that, similar to the patriots. I thought that passing on Riley Neal was a horrible mistake a few years back, although Lagow/Austin king were rated higher. I felt as if CKW went out of his way to boost ratings, and didn’t evaluate if a guy could actually play in that system. Don’t take that too literally. Obviously CKW upgraded the talent, but as his classes went on I’m saying it looked like he took more and more guys who were simply rated higher, and then would tout the higher recruiting rankings. My hope for CTA is to actually take more of a Billechick/Kirk Ferentz approach to recruiting and scrap the ratings. There’s talent in Indiana, you just have to search for it/develop it. And it’s going to piss fans and alumni off initially (understandably so to an extent), but I think CTA has to do that if he’s going to get IU to the next level. How many players has Belichick cut/traded and it pissed people off? A lot. But sometimes you do have to go with your gut and take players who regardless of ratings, can ball. And I think that CKW got away from that as time went on, and I’m hoping CTA can correct that. That’s all subjective, but the impression that I got from hearing what CKW actually said, seeing the “higher rated” guys in person, and then seeing how some lower rated guys turned out at other programs. And then watching Iowa or New England, there’s a totally different approach.

Now, based off of CTA’s first class, I’d say he’s more of a billechick recruiter, than a CKW type. May have a ton of three stars, but it looks like the players are literally perfect matches for the system, particularly at defensive end, and TJ ivy at TE pop out to me. He may also have more leverage to do his own thing in recruiting than CKW had, because again, FG seems to have more confidence in this man.

I largely agree with what you are saying, though I think you are inflating the mad genius of Belichick a little bit. First, lots of teams take flyers on QBs in the 6th or 7th rounds like Brady. Even if you don't need a QB, they can become a pretty valuable for trades if they develop half way decent.

And Bledsoe didn't get benched, he sustained an injury that required a few liters of blood to be drained from his chest. He wasn't cleared to practice for 2 months in which time he had lost 10 lbs.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

What “proven winner” is going to come here to play in a stadium that is 25% empty, and where the same fans want to run coaches out of town after their first season? Just get a solid coach. Do you think Oklahoma fans are whining about their former coordinator head coach right now because he wasn’t a huge name? Plenty of assistants have gone on to become really good head coaches. It is hardly unusual to hire an assistant to be the head coach.

One thing that drives me crazy about our fans is the obsession with names. Not whether they are actually a good coach (or good fit), but getting the biggest name possible. That’s not how you build a winning program. It seems to me that many people are more interested in winning the off-season than actually winning games.

Yes the fans are the reason for IUFB woes.....one thing is for certain, the fanbase has had zero decision authority concerning IUFB and how it is ran. The only impact the fanbase has had is positive with donations. Fans can whine bitch and complain all they want but the University makes the decisions. I don’t see them checking with the fanbase before making them.

All the blame....all of it rests with the University. Period. As you have pointed out, donations built the new stadium. Yes, people are crazy for wanting results.

 

[Superstar84b]

Yes the fans are the reason for IUFB woes.....one thing is for certain, the fanbase has had zero decision authority concerning IUFB and how it is ran. The only impact the fanbase has had is positive with donations. Fans can whine bitch and complain all they want but the University makes the decisions. I don’t see them checking with the fanbase before making them.

All the blame....all of it rests with the University. Period. As you have pointed out, donations built the new stadium. Yes, people are crazy for wanting results.

The blame does rest on the University. The University is going to be susceptible to being infuenced by fans though. Look at Tennessee. That’s 100% on UT, not the fans, for not hiring Schiano. In theory, they could’ve still hired him. But we know that universities are made up of people, who are susceptible to pressure.

From my perspective, the blame largely goes on players at the end of the day. They win or lose games.

 

[ulrey]

If you have to micromanage a person you pay millions of dollars to each year they are not the right person for the job!
We went the Coordinator route once again. Allen deserves his shot. I'd love to see him be wildly successful.
At some point while I can still see the TV and /or go to a game; I'd love to see IU buck up for a proven winner.
Go Hoosiers!

What “proven winner” is going to come here to play in a stadium that is 25% empty, and where the same fans want to run coaches out of town after their first season? Just get a solid coach. Do you think Oklahoma fans are whining about their former coordinator head coach right now because he wasn’t a huge name? Plenty of assistants have gone on to become really good head coaches. It is hardly unusual to hire an assistant to be the head coach.

One thing that drives me crazy about our fans is the obsession with names. Not whether they are actually a good coach (or good fit), but getting the biggest name possible. That’s not how you build a winning program. It seems to me that many people are more interested in winning the off-season than actually winning games.

I wouldn't compare Oklahoma and Indiana. Oklahoma has been winning since the 50's.

 

[mobilehoosier]

What “proven winner” is going to come here to play in a stadium that is 25% empty, and where the same fans want to run coaches out of town after their first season? Just get a solid coach. Do you think Oklahoma fans are whining about their former coordinator head coach right now because he wasn’t a huge name? Plenty of assistants have gone on to become really good head coaches. It is hardly unusual to hire an assistant to be the head coach.

One thing that drives me crazy about our fans is the obsession with names. Not whether they are actually a good coach (or good fit), but getting the biggest name possible. That’s not how you build a winning program. It seems to me that many people are more interested in winning the off-season than actually winning games.

I respect your opinion but:

• We wouldn't know a winning program if it bit us in the ass
• My reference to proven coach is based on guys like Hep, Brohm (Winning bowl in year 1), Kill to Minny. All guys that successfully ran programs at a lower level and have had more success than our coordinators with similar talent

I really just pissed we didn't go bowling this year. Down on lack of success.
In the end I hope Allen rocks so we can stop worrying about coaches.
Go Hoosiers!

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

The blame does rest on the University. The University is going to be susceptible to being infuenced by fans though. Look at Tennessee. That’s 100% on UT, not the fans, for not hiring Schiano. In theory, they could’ve still hired him. But we know that universities are made up of people, who are susceptible to pressure.

From my perspective, the blame largely goes on players at the end of the day. They win or lose games.

You would agree that IUFB is not UT football? The fanbase had sway with the basketball program but I just don’t see it in football. We have been where we are for way to long..... the program was neglected for decades and that is the University’s fault. They are also responsible for where we are now in comparison to just 10 years ago....or as RBB has pointed out, the donations have put us where we are ....it cuts both ways.

I hear you about the players and since you were a player you are more comfortable saying that. I honestly admire and appreciate the players that came to IU through the years that we didn’t have a chance at all at making a bowl game.... I think they did as much as they could with what was offered to them to help get them ready for games. We didn’t have a dietician I remember and we were under in the assistant coaches as well.... you didn’t have to be a football genius back then to look at our OL/DL in comparison to other B10 schools and not see the difference...

Anyway...thanks for the input. I would hope to get to a point where the admin does really care about what the fanbase thinks about the program and how they are running it. Of course we won’t know if we are there until after it has arrived so who knows maybe we are now....

 

[destewart]

The blame does rest on the University. The University is going to be susceptible to being infuenced by fans though. Look at Tennessee. That’s 100% on UT, not the fans, for not hiring Schiano. In theory, they could’ve still hired him. But we know that universities are made up of people, who are susceptible to pressure.

From my perspective, the blame largely goes on players at the end of the day. They win or lose games.

And the coach The Vols ended up with just happens to be the guy who molded the Alabama defense the last two years. They may have gotten a better coach for farvlesd money. Consider this factoid, two the four coached in the Playoffs collectively had a total of less than 40 games experience as a head coach at any level.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

how did Saban and Spurrier and John McKay, all of whom ruled the world in college with vastly superior talent, do in the NFL without said superior talent?

they all were disasters.

as for Belichick, it will be interesting to see if he retires once Brady retires, or how well he fairs if he does stay.

yes, he's had some success when Brady was out, but he had some talent that wouldn't be there if Brady wasn't.

getting every important call over the yrs to the point of WTF hasn't hurt either.

that said, in the 5 yrs he was head coach in Cleveland, he was 36 and 45. (for reference, Browns were 44 and 33 in the 5 yrs preceding Belichick).

so apparently the water in New England seems to have had a very positive effect on BB's brilliance.

 

[Crimson Crush]

If you guys think that Allen is not intense with players....then you weren't watching the sidelines at all this season. He is excited when the circumstance calls for it (very excitable) and will rip them coming off the field when they deserve it:

 

[Superstar84b]

how did Saban and Spurrier and John McKay, all of whom ruled the world in college with vastly superior talent, do in the NFL without said superior talent?

they all were disasters.

as for Belichick, it will be interesting to see if he retires once Brady retires, or how well he fairs if he does stay.

yes, he's had some success when Brady was out, but he had some talent that wouldn't be there if Brady wasn't.

getting every important call over the yrs to the point of WTF hasn't hurt either.

that said, in the 5 yrs he was head coach in Cleveland, he was 36 and 45. (for reference, Browns were 44 and 33 in the 5 yrs preceding Belichick).

so apparently the water in New England seems to have had a very positive effect on BB's brilliance.

This is reasonable. Saban and BB have clearly benefited from leadership that will give them whatever they want/stay out of their way. How many owners do you think would let BB sit at the podeium and mumble the entire press conference?

But even with that being said, what Saban and BB have done is more impressive than what any two coaches have done in the MODERN era, and they have systems that fundamentally work. Basically every guy who has coached under BB has had some level of success as a HC, because there’s something legitimate about the culture. Same with Saban. You won’t see what either of them have done for a long long time in college or in the pros.

As for BB, yes he and he benefited from Brady, but again, no one else wanted Brady. Right now he’s benefiting from James Harrison... but every other team on the waiver wire passed him up. The list goes on of guys no one else wanted and he took um in. So although he’s benefited from having talent, every other team had a chance at these guys, and passed on them.