B10 preview by Three Man Weave spots IU at #3

[T.M.P.]

Yeah too bad he won't have improved one bit since last year.

OK, do get why one might "not be sold" on DG, just can't help but credit him wth potentially turning the corner. Not an irrational reach given his pure athleticism and speed, his ceiling in that respect at least hard to match. Maybe the IU Player I most want to be wowed by this Season. Doesn't mean it'll happen, but if his decision-making catches up to his vision and innate talent it'd be something to see.

Have to expect Romeo is going to make everyone around him better if only because of the constant threat he poses, see Juwan and Justin in effect anchoring the middle, and a lot of early rotation in the other two spots. Just so many ways to go, so many ways it could. Pretty sure the performance bar for practice/scrimmage is going to be a lot higher this year, promising just in itself.

Similarly looking forward to games with single-digit TOs.

His court vision (or awareness) is horrible - for a guard - it's one of his major problems. He plays (played) with tunnel vision and only sees what he's focused on. He's also often behind the play and the ball stalls a bit as he catches up to the rest of the players. Which speaks more to his court awareness lacking. As does the telegraphed passes.

He just hasn't been a very smart player. Durham's problems were easily fixable, they were physical. Teaching someone "brains" isn't.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

His court vision (or awareness) is horrible - for a guard - it's one of his major problems. He plays (played) with tunnel vision and only sees what he's focused on. He's also often behind the play and the ball stalls a bit as he catches up to the rest of the players. Which speaks more to his court awareness lacking. As does the telegraphed passes.

He just hasn't been a very smart player. Durham's problems were easily fixable, they were physical. Teaching someone "brains" isn't.

And yet he can see to make the good passes that he does. But you're probably right, and definitely re: the "brains" part.

 

[T.M.P.]

And yet he can see to make the good passes that he does.

If he's focusing on making that pass and that's the play in front of him, yea.

fwiw - It wasn't his handle getting him into trouble and giving him a high TO rate.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

If he's focusing on making that pass and that's the play in front of him, yea.

fwiw - It wasn't his handle getting him into trouble and giving him a high TO rate.

You're just wrong. The list of Frosh/ Soph PG's who had turnover problems and finally settled down, is infinite. Having more talent around them, usually helps as well.

You seem to think it's not possible for Green because you're TMP and you think you know everything.

Whether Green is more of a natural 2 is irrelevant. He has every ability to be a solid Point at this level, and if he ever plays in the league that is what it will he as.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Yeah too bad he won't have improved one bit since last year.

OK, do get why one might "not be sold" on DG, just can't help but credit him wth potentially turning the corner. Not an irrational reach given his pure athleticism and speed, his ceiling in that respect at least hard to match. Maybe the IU Player I most want to be wowed by this Season. Doesn't mean it'll happen, but if his decision-making catches up to his vision and innate talent it'd be something to see.

Have to expect Romeo is going to make everyone around him better if only because of the constant threat he poses, see Juwan and Justin in effect anchoring the middle, and a lot of early rotation in the other two spots. Just so many ways to go, so many ways it could. Pretty sure the performance bar for practice/scrimmage is going to be a lot higher this year, promising just in itself.

Similarly looking forward to games with single-digit TOs.

You just said nothing in a whole lot of words.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Beats personifying petty, miserable and obsessed in only ten.

 

[IndianaHoops]

His court vision (or awareness) is horrible - for a guard - it's one of his major problems. He plays (played) with tunnel vision and only sees what he's focused on. He's also often behind the play and the ball stalls a bit as he catches up to the rest of the players. Which speaks more to his court awareness lacking. As does the telegraphed passes.

He just hasn't been a very smart player. Durham's problems were easily fixable, they were physical. Teaching someone "brains" isn't.

Trust me.....as a coach, a kid lacking physical ability (no matter how smart), is harder to improve than a kid lacking brains with physical ability over a long time period.

You can’t “coach” speed, strength, and size......

You can win some games here and there (and upset some people) with less talent. But lack of talent will eventually catch up to you.

 

[T.M.P.]

Trust me.....as a coach, a kid lacking physical ability (no matter how smart), is harder to improve than a kid lacking brains with physical ability over a long time period.

You can’t “coach” speed, strength, and size......

You can win some games here and there (and upset some people) with less talent. But lack of talent will eventually catch up to you.

Why do we have a physical trainer? What's his job?

If DG hasn't gotten it by now, what drills are you going to run to make him less spastic, smarter and more aware?

 

[jsig]

I believe DG can be really good but he needs to be a scoring guard not the PG to be put in the best position to succeed. . He should look to take open jumpers or attack the basket or quickly move the ball to someone else to keep the offense flowing. I do not have big confidence in him facilitating the offense other than a fancy pass here or there. I understand they have limited depth at PG so he is likely needed for minutes at PG. Maybe he has worked hard and will be just fine but hopefully Phinissee takes charge of the PG position.

What is the prospect of Romeo running the offense while DG plays more off the ball as a scorer as Rojo did when Yogi was here? IMO, I expect the offense to go through Romeo a lot anyway along with Morgan in the paint. Can Romeo create ala Valentine at MSU? I only streamed a couple of his HS games and saw some HS All-star games where there other high level recruits for PG so I don't know. I see his is huge potential to rack up points both from the outside and attacking the bucket. His willingness to go battle inside stood out but that could change as he moves to the next level (HS to Big Ten).

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

I believe DG can be really good but he needs to be a scoring guard not the PG to be put in the best position to succeed. . He should look to take open jumpers or attack the basket or quickly move the ball to someone else to keep the offense flowing. I do not have big confidence in him facilitating the offense other than a fancy pass here or there. I understand they have limited depth at PG so he is likely needed for minutes at PG. Maybe he has worked hard and will be just fine but hopefully Phinissee takes charge of the PG position.

What is the prospect of Romeo running the offense while DG plays more off the ball as a scorer as Rojo did when Yogi was here? IMO, I expect the offense to go through Romeo a lot anyway along with Morgan in the paint. Can Romeo create ala Valentine at MSU? I only streamed a couple of his HS games and saw some HS All-star games where there other high level recruits for PG so I don't know. I see his is huge potential to rack up points both from the outside and attacking the bucket. His willingness to go battle inside stood out but that could change as he moves to the next level (HS to Big Ten).

Agree on DG being more likely to excel at the two-spot. RL is certainly in a position to evolve much faster now that at any time in his career. Up against best and most athletic competition he's ever faced including his teammates, most sophisticated offensive and defensive schemes, greatest expectation and pressure, etc. How that transforms the mentality and performance of someone who has always been a primary scorer will be interesting.

Other than his AAU and All-Star action, not as if RL has ever had nearly as much latitude in relying on his teammates to score. Given that scoring prowess and it's effect in breaking down and demanding help from opposing defenses, optimally is it right to expect that he's close to leading the Team in assists? Sure would like to think so.

 

[Eurocyldon]

Coach Miller noted Devonte has looked good over the summer. That's encouraging. But he will have to make a huge leap if he is going to play much PG this season.

PGs need to distribute the ball and make sure their teammates get the ball timely and in a position to score and be successful. We have seen rare glimpses of that over two seasons. Most PGs are measured on their assist to turnover ratio. Devonte has a long way to go.

Although some of these guys are not PGs, it gives you an idea of where DG was at last season:

#1 Avery from Kent State 5.04 assist to turnover ratio
#2 Rahkman from Michigan 4.40
#21 Winston from MSU 2.77
#22 Mason from Minn 2.77
#28 Mathias from Pur 2.70
#31 Snider from L'ville 2.62
#50 Brown from Bucknell 2.46

DG came in at 1.29.
Not going to work at PG unless that improves significantly. I can see him playing more SG than PG as the season goes along if he does not demonstrate the ability to cherish the ball.

 

[T.M.P.]

Coach Miller noted Devonte has looked good over the summer. That's encouraging. But he will have to make a huge leap if he is going to play much PG this season.

PGs need to distribute the ball and make sure their teammates get the ball timely and in a position to score and be successful. We have seen rare glimpses of that over two seasons. Most PGs are measured on their assist to turnover ratio. Devonte has a long way to go.

Although some of these guys are not PGs, it gives you an idea of where DG was at last season:

#1 Avery from Kent State 5.04 assist to turnover ratio
#2 Rahkman from Michigan 4.40
#21 Winston from MSU 2.77
#22 Mason from Minn 2.77
#28 Mathias from Pur 2.70
#31 Snider from L'ville 2.62
#50 Brown from Bucknell 2.46

DG came in at 1.29.
Not going to work at PG unless that improves significantly. I can see him playing more SG than PG as the season goes along if he does not demonstrate the ability to cherish the ball.

Better indicator and the best indicator is TO ratio.

Assists per game are too dependant on minutes played, and too relative to the system the team runs. ie an UNC PG will almost always have more pace neutral assists and a better Ast:TO ratio, than a Wisconsin PG.

That being said, Devonte was at 19%, which was down from 21% the previous season. Needs to be under 15, better if around 12. So far he's not been much different than Josh Newkirk, even being a bit lower in production. For his skill and ability level, which is much better than Newkirk's, that's sad.

11.6 PER, which is average for a reserve playing less than five minutes. Needs to be above 16, which is around average for a starter on a top 40 team, better if it was 18+.

For him to increase it 4 to 8 points .. will take improvement in every aspect of his game, and far far less mistakes.

 

[Eurocyldon]

All stats very based on minutes played. Yogi turned it over 88 times as a Sr. but he was playing 34 minutes per game, and he averaged 2.3 TOs per game for his career. Assists to TO ratio has always been the measure of a PG, but I think the point we are both making is DG needs to improve if he is going to help IU this season.

 

[T.M.P.]

Assists to TO ratio has always been the measure of a PG

To fans, but not analysts. Player assists in the world of analytics is a zero sum stat and unimportant. Team assists are considered, but still not important. For players, TO Ratio with Usage Factor considered, is where it's at.

No, not all stats, pace neutral stats consider possessions. Per minute stats consider minutes. Only per game stats are skewed by opportunity and role. Usage factor is also important when using per possession stats.

It's not the 1980's anymore.

 

[speroni]

To fans, but not analysts. Player assists in the world of analytics is a zero sum stat and unimportant. Team assists are considered, but still not important. For players, TO Ratio with Usage Factor considered, is where it's at.

No, not all stats, pace neutral stats consider possessions. Per minute stats consider minutes. Only per game stats are skewed by opportunity and role. Usage factor is also important when using per possession stats.

It's not the 1980's anymore.

You are certainly the numbers guy. Can you shed some light on if his TO Ratio improved as the season went on? In other words... once he got more comfortable with what CAM was demanding, did we see a better Devonte on the floor?

Thanks in advance.

 

[T.M.P.]

You are certainly the numbers guy. Can you shed some light on if his TO Ratio improved as the season went on? In other words... once he got more comfortable with what CAM was demanding, did we see a better Devonte on the floor?

Thanks in advance.

Yea, he became more productive in conference raising his PER by 2 points, mostly through scoring but his TO rate stayed the same. He also raised his assist% by 3pts. And the majority of the upswing happened in only a few games later in the season.

His biggest issue is disappearing for long stretches, and by long I mean multiple games. A little more consistency would go a long way,

But, that's the thing with him, he doesn't play the game efficiently, going for the hype more than the substance, the flashy instead of the simple. ie one really exciting pass or shot doesn't wipe out two bad passes and four possessions where he did nothing.

 

[ufo33]

Not sold on Devonte at PG, far too many TO. IU needs to move on from the lack of valuing the basketball during the Crean era. If Devonte can suddenly adjust and not turn the ball over by making the fundamental pass rather than the flashy low % pass or shot, then ok. Good news is there are other options now where last year it was two Seniors that we even worse than Devonte. And Al who was the most secure PG on the team last year with the ball in his hands.

 

[Eurocyldon]

It's not 1980 and you are entitled to an opinion. I'll stick with my original thought and be fine with that. It is also possible DG ends up playing less PG than last season. I can see a situation where Langford ends up with the ball as much as DG especially late in the shot clock, with AD getting some time at point, and RP having his window of opportunity just as Coach Miller said. I can also see Morgan as a point forward in mismatch situations, which he has done in the past.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

I can also see Morgan as a point forward in mismatch situations, which he has done in the past.

This sounds scary for someone.

 

[T.M.P.]

It's not 1980 and you are entitled to an opinion. I'll stick with my original thought and be fine with that. It is also possible DG ends up playing less PG than last season. I can see a situation where Langford ends up with the ball as much as DG especially late in the shot clock, with AD getting some time at point, and RP having his window of opportunity just as Coach Miller said. I can also see Morgan as a point forward in mismatch situations, which he has done in the past.

What was your original thought? I don't see anything that qualifies.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

I can also see Morgan as a point forward in mismatch situations, which he has done in the past.

Point forwards usually know how to dribble.

 

[Eurocyldon]

What was your original thought? I don't see anything that qualifies.

I get it. Nobody is allowed to have an opinion different than yours because nobody knows more than you. Feel free to block me at any time.

 

[IU Scott]

Not sold on Devonte at PG, far too many TO. IU needs to move on from the lack of valuing the basketball during the Crean era. If Devonte can suddenly adjust and not turn the ball over by making the fundamental pass rather than the flashy low % pass or shot, then ok. Good news is there are other options now where last year it was two Seniors that we even worse than Devonte. And Al who was the most secure PG on the team last year with the ball in his hands.

So are you saying players can't improve over the years and what he was last two years is what he will always be.

 

[Lucy01]

So are you saying players can't improve over the years and what he was last two years is what he will always be.

Scott, people would like to know what makes you such a good poster?

 

[Upset Alert]

Scott, people would like to know what makes you such a good poster?

There are no words