Assault on Truth: A book about our president's lies

[sglowrider]

The US contributes more than any other country. That needs to change.

If the US wants to maintain its hegemony for the foreseeable, it has to participate in the global stage.

To withdraw from it will only diminish its role and accelerate the dominance of other countries including China. When you contribute, you have influence. If you are not at the party, how will you hope to get any influence? The only news you hear about the US is always about the buffoonish comments of Trump. That's not good in the long run.

Withdrawing from the TPP was another foolish error by Trump. It was designed to limit China's influence in the Asia-Pacific or at worse, provide a counter-balance. But Trump used it as some domestic political tool.

 

[mcmurtry66]

If the US wants to maintain its hegemony for the foreseeable, it has to participate in the global stage.

To withdraw from it will only diminish its role and accelerate the dominance of other countries including China. When you contribute, you have influence. If you are not at the party, how will you hope to get any influence? The only news you hear about the US is always about the buffoonish comments of Trump. That's not good in the long run.

Withdrawing from the TPP was another foolish error by Trump. It was designed to limit China's influence in the Asia-Pacific or at worse, provide a counter-balance. But Trump used it as some domestic political tool.

Contribute is fine. Subsidizing others is not. One of the things we’ve learned from this is we need to be doing more domestically and less globally. Agencies get by doing the bare minimum when they know revenue/funding is guaranteed. We’ve been the cash cow for too much for too long. Trump screwed up the handling of this virus up but so did WHO.

And I understand and agree with your point about hegemony. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be scrutinizing where our money goes and ask more and become better stewards of our money. The WHO dropped the ball big time. We can still maintain our place in the world in relation to other countries while still being more vigilant in watching our money and subsidies.

 

[sglowrider]

Contribute is fine. Subsidizing others is not. One of the things we’ve learned from this is we need to be doing more domestically and less globally. Agencies get by doing the bare minimum when they know revenue/funding is guaranteed. We’ve been the cash cow for too much for too long.

Like I said earlier, the US govt only contributes $100+ million per year. That's a drop in the bucket. The bulk of the American contributions are private.
Best to look at all the wasted and failed policies that have cost billions elsewhere. What was spend on the would Inauguration have paid for the WHO's contribution. Or sending troops to the southern border.

WHO did screw up in the early days of the epidemic but it was early days and no one knew too much of what was going on other than the bastards in Wuhan. (Even Xi was fooled.)

But WHO does a lot of good in the countries who can least afford it -- and does save lives and a lot. They have some very dedicated people willing to risk their lives in trying to save the lives of women and children in war zones -- and some have died as a result. (They were portrait as American spies by the warlords and were killed as a result.)

 

[mcmurtry66]

Like I said earlier, the US govt only contributes $100+ million per year. That's a drop in the bucket. The bulk of the American contributions are private.
Best to look at all the wasted and failed policies that have cost billions elsewhere. What was spend on the would Inauguration have paid for the WHO's contribution. Or sending troops to the southern border.

WHO did screw up in the early days of the epidemic but it was early days and no one knew too much of what was going on other than the bastards in Wuhan. (Even Xi was fooled.)

But WHO does a lot of good in the countries who can least afford it -- and does save lives and a lot. They have some very dedicated people willing to risk their lives in trying to save the lives of women and children in war zones -- and some have died as a result. (They were portrait as American spies by the warlords and were killed as a result.)

Agreed that we waste money everywhere. But that doesn’t justify our being the world’s cash cow. We need to come in line with other countries’ contributions.

 

[sglowrider]

Agreed that we waste money everywhere. But that doesn’t justify our being the world’s cash cow. We need to come in line with other countries’ contributions.

Look at the link:

https://www.who.int/about/finances-accountability/budget/PB2018-2019_en_web.pdf

In the past few years, their budget is like $4.4Billion -- and the US Govt's contribution is only $100+. (The rest of the $300million are private donations). That's hardly a cash cow.

I suggest you look at the budget and see where they are spending their money. It's a big global agenda. There are a lot of organisations that are opaque (like FIFA) but WHO isn't one of them. Sure they are bloated but most large organisations are (-- which I why I also prefer startups. Purer and more expedient in their objectives.)

 

[mcmurtry66]

Look at the link:

https://www.who.int/about/finances-accountability/budget/PB2018-2019_en_web.pdf

In the past few years, their budget is like $4.4Billion -- and the US Govt's contribution is only $100+. (The rest of the $300million are private donations). That's hardly a cash cow.

I suggest you look at the budget and see where they are spending their money. It's a big global agenda. There are a lot of organisations that are opaque but WHO isn't one of them. Sure they are bloated but most large organisations are (-- which I why I also prefer startups. Purer and more expedient in their objectives.)

I prefer startups too for the same reason. The fact remains we still give more than any other country.

 

[Bill4411]

It's always good to get John Miller's perspective:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ler-interview-is-even-crazier-than-you-think/

 

[CO. Hoosier]

If he was a CEO he would be gone for the government's response to the coronavirus. You may like some of his policies, but the failure of his administration has contributed to thousands of deaths and sent the country on its way to a depression. Meanwhile, other countries have ended infections and are safely restarting their economies.

The "Trump failed Coronavirus policy" meme is now proven to be yet another criticism that is not based on evidence.

The NYT said its own city was the gateway for seeding the virus throughout most of the United States. Some of that was simply a product of the high density and crowded living conditions there. But some of it is also the result of the dumbassary of Cuomo and De Blassio as they naively believed that New Yorkers should continue being New Yorkers as late as early March.

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”
​

Cuomo said and believed this as Trump shut down travel from Europe. Governor Cuomo became a TV star over this. I was even sucked in by his bravado. He was flat dead wrong about almost everything he said and did. Trump spent billions trying to placate Cuomo's constant gloom and doom demands after Cuomo's initial denials and ignorance. The topper was Cuomo's insistence that nursing homes accept Covid-positive patients for care, based upon some misguided notion about discrimination, knowing that nursing homes had no ability to isolate and control infections. He gave this order while the Trump-supplied hospital at the Javits Center sat mostly empty.

None of that was Trump's fault.

​

 

[mcmurtry66]

The "Trump failed Coronavirus policy" meme is now proven to be yet another criticism that is not based on evidence.

The NYT said its own city was the gateway for seeding the virus throughout most of the United States. Some of that was simply a product of the high density and crowded living conditions there. But some of it is also the result of the dumbassary of Cuomo and De Blassio as they naively believed that New Yorkers should continue being New Yorkers as late as early March.

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”
​

Cuomo said and believed this as Trump shut down travel from Europe. Governor Cuomo became a TV star over this. I was even sucked in by his bravado. He was flat dead wrong about almost everything he said and did. Trump spent billions trying to placate Cuomo's constant gloom and doom demands after Cuomo's initial denials and ignorance. The topper was Cuomo's insistence that nursing homes accept Covid-positive patients for care, based upon some misguided notion about discrimination, knowing that nursing homes had no ability to isolate and control infections. He gave this order while the Trump-supplied hospital at the Javits Center sat mostly empty.

None of that was Trump's fault.

​

De Blasio was as ignorant as the Georgia gov with his statements about asymptomatic carriers.

 

[bawlmer]

The "Trump failed Coronavirus policy" meme is now proven to be yet another criticism that is not based on evidence.


None of that was Trump's fault.

You insist on letting Trump off the hook for the failure of his administration to have tests available that would have alerted him and NY officials that they had a problem on their hands.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You insist on letting Trump off the hook for the failure of his administration to have tests available that would have alerted him and NY officials that they had a problem on their hands.

I agree testing was badly FUBARED. But I haven't seen evidence that was a failure of the Trump administration. Make your argument and I'll consider it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

De Blasio was as ignorant as the Georgia gov with his statements about asymptomatic carriers.

I missed that. What did the GA govenor say?

 

[mcmurtry66]

I missed that. What did the GA govenor say?

He claimed to not know that people without symptoms could spread it. The timing of it was absurd.

 

[bawlmer]

I agree testing was badly FUBARED. But I haven't seen evidence that was a failure of the Trump administration. Make your argument and I'll consider it.

The lost month of February (link to NY Times story).

In a nutshell:

• CDC's tests, introduced in late January, didn't work
• FDA barred private test developers so all testing had to be done using CDC tests
• FDA removed its test development ban in late February after it determined the CDC had a manufacturing flaw that was contaminating the tests (there is also a good WaPo story on this)

By way of comparison for how leadership might have mattered, the alternative success story of South Korea has been posted elsewhere on this forum.

 

[outside shooter]

The fact that local government leaders also made stupid misstatements and failed to encourage preparedness does not excuse the POTUS, with unique access to a wealth of information showing the dangers, leading a disinformation campaign.

He deserves some props for travel restrictions with China. But then he went all smug for 6 weeks, called it a hoax, held rallies, played golf, and did nothing. This is the same timeframe in which South Korea, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, and other places sniffed out the truth, PREPARED FOR THE OUTBREAK, and saved lives. They are now back in business.

Our government had the same info but held pep rallies, sold PPE, politicized the threat, and just flat-out BUNGLED the whole situation.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

The lost month of February (link to NY Times story).

In a nutshell:

• CDC's tests, introduced in late January, didn't work
• FDA barred private test developers so all testing had to be done using CDC tests
• FDA removed its test development ban in late February after it determined the CDC had a manufacturing flaw that was contaminating the tests (there is also a good WaPo story on this)

By way of comparison for how leadership might have mattered, the alternative success story of South Korea has been posted elsewhere on this forum.

Get ready to have this argument "considered"...or not.
You must be so excited.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The lost month of February (link to NY Times story).

In a nutshell:

• CDC's tests, introduced in late January, didn't work
• FDA barred private test developers so all testing had to be done using CDC tests
• FDA removed its test development ban in late February after it determined the CDC had a manufacturing flaw that was contaminating the tests (there is also a good WaPo story on this)

By way of comparison for how leadership might have mattered, the alternative success story of South Korea has been posted elsewhere on this forum.

I understand that. The agency rules that led to that existed at the time Trump took office. Those rules even survived the Ebola scare. The pandemic agency many claimed Trump eliminated allowed those rules to exist. I think one of the recommendations that come from this would be that we need fewer rules and agencies involved with a pandemic instead of more. I’m not holding my breath. 9-11 brought us a whole new level of intelligence bureaucracy that as near as I can tell does not add to our safety and security. And look at the crap Trump is taking over streamlining the pandemic response inside the NSC. And I’m old enough to remember those who wanted the CDC role to expand to study gun violence for Pete’s sake.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

He claimed to not know that people without symptoms could spread it. The timing of it was absurd.

Ah, now I remember.

The Gov. was probably naive. But there is developing resarch suggesting that he wasn't totally wrong. This research probably partially explains why the virus is under-reported and how it could be in places without being detected.

 

[hoot1]

You guys are a riot. Give me your list of all who testified under oath that they saw evidence that the FBI, CIA, SC, or anybody produced that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia.

When an entity is doing something which benefits your cause, collusion really isn't necessary.

Just sit back and watch.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

When an entity is doing something which benefits your cause, collusion really isn't necessary.

Just sit back and watch.

That might be true, but watching is not a crime. That said there was no direct evidence that the Trump campaign knew about it since the Obama administration deliberately decided not to give Trump a heads up warning.

We now know why no warning was given. The Obama administration was busy trying to build a magic collusion case out of thin air instead of notifying Trump and taking on the Russians directly. The early January meeting shows Obama was directly involved with the magic collusion case.

 

[hoot1]

That might be true, but watching is not a crime. That said there was no direct evidence that the Trump campaign knew about it since the Obama administration deliberately decided not to give Trump a heads up warning.

We now know why no warning was given. The Obama administration was busy trying to build a magic collusion case out of thin air instead of notifying Trump and taking on the Russians directly. The early January meeting shows Obama was directly involved with the magic collusion case.

Trump claims the Obama administration did nothing about the Russian interference..

This fact check discusses the Trump claim and concludes basically the Obama administration did act but could and should have done more.

CoH, welcome your critique of my fact check.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Trump claims the Obama administration did nothing about the Russian interference..

This fact check discusses the Trump claim and concludes basically the Obama administration did act but could and should have done more.

CoH, welcome your critique of my fact check.

I don't have much to quibble about the facts stated in your fact check; other than to say that it's two years old and we know more now.

It now appears that one reason the Obama Administration slow rolled its response was that the FBI and the higher intelligence officials were in the midst of trying to build a collusion case against the Trump campaign as an insurance policy against him winning. Based upon disclosures in the last several days, we also learned that Obama personally participated in that effort and that information confirms the previously disclosed Strzok/Page messages about keeping the WH advised of developments.

 

[bawlmer]

I understand that. The agency rules that led to that existed at the time Trump took office. Those rules even survived the Ebola scare. The pandemic agency many claimed Trump eliminated allowed those rules to exist. I think one of the recommendations that come from this would be that we need fewer rules and agencies involved with a pandemic instead of more. I’m not holding my breath. 9-11 brought us a whole new level of intelligence bureaucracy that as near as I can tell does not add to our safety and security. And look at the crap Trump is taking over streamlining the pandemic response inside the NSC. And I’m old enough to remember those who wanted the CDC role to expand to study gun violence for Pete’s sake.

The rules didn't fail, the leadership was missing when the execution of the rules failed.

It isn't a bad idea to have a single reliable test to monitor the spread of a novel virus. But leadership is required in a crisis when things don't go as planned.

No one in the Trump administration took charge of the testing failures at the CDC for the entire month of February. Not to mention the BS from POTUS during that time clearly demonstrating he had no knowledge of what was going on.

It's this last point that makes it hard to overlook that failure as misfortune, but to instead see it as tragic neglect.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

the leadership was missing when the execution of the rules failed.

How so? The rules first failed at the administrative bureaucratic level. I don't think the White House even had knowledge of it. Once the excessive red tape became known as a problem, steps to cut it were promptly addressed. But even that took time.

It isn't a bad idea to have a single reliable test to monitor the spread of a novel virus.

Yes.

But leadership is required in a crisis when things don't go as planned.

We have chosen to hamstring leadership with processes and rules.

No one in the Trump administration took charge of the testing failures at the CDC for the entire month of February.

That's an oxymoron. The CDC was in charge and it is an administrative agency.

Not to mention the BS from POTUS during that time clearly demonstrating he had no knowledge of what was going on.

Yes, Trump made misstatements. But calling it BS is itself BS. Many in the media and in other elected officials were saying the same or downplaying it more. That said, Trump closed the US from foreigners coming from China and he appointed the task force at the end of January. He was way ahead of the curve as established by the commentariat.

It's this last point that makes it hard to overlook that failure as misfortune, but to instead see it as tragic neglect.

I agree hindsight tells us we could have been more aggressive. But we now know that China deliberately hid and withheld from the world much essential data. Hindsight also tells us we overreacted in some respects and that also caused damage. A conspicuous example is banning all elective medical treatment at all hospitals.

 

[bawlmer]

How so? The rules first failed at the administrative bureaucratic level. I don't think the White House even had knowledge of it. Once the excessive red tape became known as a problem, steps to cut it were promptly addressed. But even that took time.



Yes.



We have chosen to hamstring leadership with processes and rules.



That's an oxymoron. The CDC was in charge and it is an administrative agency.



Yes, Trump made misstatements. But calling it BS is itself BS. Many in the media and in other elected officials were saying the same or downplaying it more. That said, Trump closed the US from foreigners coming from China and he appointed the task force at the end of January. He was way ahead of the curve as established by the commentariat.



I agree hindsight tells us we could have been more aggressive. But we now know that China deliberately hid and withheld from the world much essential data. Hindsight also tells us we overreacted in some respects and that also caused damage. A conspicuous example is banning all elective medical treatment at all hospitals.

Here's a Feb 4 WSJ editorial emphasizing the need to get testing right and already pointing out CDC is strained. If people outside the government saw it happening, why not the White House?

 

[meridian]

Here's a Feb 4 WSJ editorial emphasizing the need to get testing right and already pointing out CDC is strained. If people outside the government saw it happening, why not the White House?

Do you have to ask?
Everybody knows that Trump knows how to fight ChinaVirus better than anybody else, yes, better than even Abraham Lincoln.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Here's a Feb 4 WSJ editorial emphasizing the need to get testing right and already pointing out CDC is strained. If people outside the government saw it happening, why not the White House?

They probably did see it. IIRC, the task force talked about testing very early. But you can't build a testing regimen out of thin air even if we weren't hampered by our excessive bureaucratic rules and red tape. Also, IIRC, Birx and Fauci were focused on more reliable testing than was used in other parts of the world. That also delayed matters.

 

[bawlmer]

They probably did see it. IIRC, the task force talked about testing very early. But you can't build a testing regimen out of thin air even if we weren't hampered by our excessive bureaucratic rules and red tape. Also, IIRC, Birx and Fauci were focused on more reliable testing than was used in other parts of the world. That also delayed matters.

Talk, bureaucratic rules and red tape, delays. I think I'll rest my case that leadership could have made a difference.

 

[meridian]

Talk, bureaucratic rules and red tape, delays. I think I'll rest my case that leadership could have made a difference.

It's called the excuses.
However, you should be satisfied by having the greatest president we have ever had. Right, CO?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Talk, bureaucratic rules and red tape, delays. I think I'll rest my case that leadership could have made a difference.

That’s pretty predictable. There are still rules for breaking the rules.

 

[hoot1]

I agree hindsight tells us we could have been more aggressive. But we now know that China deliberately hid and withheld from the world much essential data. Hindsight also tells us we overreacted in some respects and that also caused damage. A conspicuous example is banning all elective medical treatment at all hospitals.

We now know?

I have a hard time accepting our intelligence was so naive that it believed China was being forthcoming about what was occurring in regard to the virus.

Let us face it, we really don't know what the WH knew and when it knew it. Intelligence beyond the public knowledge does reach the WH.

We don.t know squat.

 

[zeke4ahs]

That might be true, but watching is not a crime. That said there was no direct evidence that the Trump campaign knew about it since the Obama administration deliberately decided not to give Trump a heads up warning.

We now know why no warning was given. The Obama administration was busy trying to build a magic collusion case out of thin air instead of notifying Trump and taking on the Russians directly. The early January meeting shows Obama was directly involved with the magic collusion case.

Oh my. You have gone full on conspiracy theory now.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Oh my. You have gone full on conspiracy theory now.

There is only two things wrong with your post:

First: It wasn't a conspiracy.

Second: It's not a threory.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

We now know?

I have a hard time accepting our intelligence was so naive that it believed China was being forthcoming about what was occurring in regard to the virus.

Let us face it, we really don't know what the WH knew and when it knew it. Intelligence beyond the public knowledge does reach the WH.

We don.t know squat.

We have a pretty clear picture of what the Obama administration did and when it did it.

 

[cosmickid]

I agree testing was badly FUBARED. But I haven't seen evidence that was a failure of the Trump administration. Make your argument and I'll consider it.

It's also beyond self-serving and just a "tad" disingenuous to blame China and the WHO for not letting you know in time, when you are personally responsible for not only diminishing CDC presence within the WHO, but also for eliminating the very person tasked with monitoring any possible medical problems within China. I assume this is NOT news to you- it's been widely reported...

"The Trump administration cut staff by more than two-thirds at a key U.S. public health agency operating inside China, as part of a larger rollback of U.S.-funded health and science experts on the ground there leading up to the coronavirus outbreak, Reuters has learned.

Most of the reductions were made at the Beijing office of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and occurred over the past two years, according to public CDC documents viewed by Reuters and interviews with four people familiar with the drawdown.

The Atlanta-based CDC, America’s preeminent disease-fighting agency, provides public health assistance to nations around the world and works with them to help stop outbreaks of contagious diseases from spreading globally. It has worked in China for 30 years."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03...f-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak/

Trump made fund allocation choices based on satisfying certain political interests he wanted to support, and he needs to accept responsibility for his actions. Same with his shift of the funding within the HHS from a priority on pandemic/infectious disease monitorship to his obsession with his wall.

There was a protocol in place dating back at least to 2015-16, with an emphasis on testing, PPE, isolation/quarantine which also pointed out deficiencies in those areas which needed to be addressed, and would have been addressed had a Dem Admin continued in place after 2016. Again, Trump made the choices he made, and as usual, he tries to deflect blame on others...

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...ng-stone-timeline-coronavirus-america-982944/

 

[cosmickid]

We have a pretty clear picture of what the Obama administration did and when it did it.

So let's discuss your conspiracy theory that you define as not a "conspiracy theory". I don't read the Fox news rantings on this subject which they appear to be preoccupied with, so I'll ask you to briefly bring me up to speed. Esp the part where the Obama Admin undertook a conspiracy to build a "collusion case" against Trump?

So did this idea for building this case and specifically deciding that Russia would be the "offending partner" emerge out of thin air? How did Obama specifically choose Russia over any of the other candidates? And exactly when did the Admin, the FBI and all these anti-Trump conspirators start to put this plan in motion?

The reason I'm curious is because it would seem to me at the very least Team Trump's actions in Spring 2016 were arguably a reason anyone could become alarmed. Specifically, the addition of Manafort and Carter Page to the Trump Campaign was an event that was viewed as alarming to people outside of govt circles as well as those within the Admin. From March 30, 2016...

"In preparation for what will surely be a heated Republican convention, Donald Trump has hired an experienced political operative to help wrangle GOP delegates: Paul Manafort, a strategist with three decades of Republican conventions under his belt, who has also worked for some unsavory international clients.

That roster includes the pro-Russian former president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, who was deposed in a popular revolution in 2013.

As Quartz reported earlier this month, Trump’s foreign policy advisors also include Carter Page, a former advisor and current shareholder in the state-controlled Russian natural gas giant, Gazprom, who has advocated for a less adversarial US stance toward Moscow. Bloomberg spoke with Sergey Yatsenko, a former Gazprom official who is now an official adviser to Page’s firm, who said Page “understands what’s going on in Russia … He doesn’t make strong judgments.”
https://qz.com/650201/donald-trump-...rmer-president-putin-buddy-viktor-yanukovych/

So it is remarkable that if the Obama Admin/FBI created this secret plot prior to April 2016, that they somehow were able to know in advance that all of these pro-Putin elements would subsequently be joining Team Trump in March and April. So did Obama force team Trump to hire people with Russian connections in order to validate the "conspiracy theory" they created to "slander" Trump? Is that what happened?

So was Obama the puppet master that manipulated Team Trump into committing crazy suspicious acts, like sending Carter Page to Moscow in July 2016? Convince me that there was NO basis for anyone to be suspicious of events that Spring and summer, including the visit of an earlier target of recruitment by Russian Intelligence to a Conference where he made speeches calling for an end to US sanctions against the Russian Energy Sector. Which of course included the previously mentioned Gazprom...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/us/politics/carter-page-russia-trump.html


Carter Page criticized American policies toward Russia at the New Economic School in Moscow in July, echoing the positions of President Vladimir V. Putin.Credit...Anton Denisov/Sputnik, via Associated Press

 

[meridian]

wow, that has to be a LONG, LONG read

I can handle it! I read "The War and Peace" non-stop!

 

[sglowrider]

 

[meridian]

View embedded media

Who are giving these great marks?
Is it the the same outfit that told him:

• Trump has done more for America than Lincoln
• Trump's inauguration crowd was bigger than Obama's
• The revolutionary War troops took over the airport
• ....

and other over18,000+ lies?
Also, who are these brainless Americans who believe and/or condone these ridiculour lies?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

So let's discuss your conspiracy theory that you define as not a "conspiracy theory". I don't read the Fox news rantings on this subject which they appear to be preoccupied with, so I'll ask you to briefly bring me up to speed. Esp the part where the Obama Admin undertook a conspiracy to build a "collusion case" against Trump?

So did this idea for building this case and specifically deciding that Russia would be the "offending partner" emerge out of thin air? How did Obama specifically choose Russia over any of the other candidates? And exactly when did the Admin, the FBI and all these anti-Trump conspirators start to put this plan in motion?

The reason I'm curious is because it would seem to me at the very least Team Trump's actions in Spring 2016 were arguably a reason anyone could become alarmed. Specifically, the addition of Manafort and Carter Page to the Trump Campaign was an event that was viewed as alarming to people outside of govt circles as well as those within the Admin. From March 30, 2016...

"In preparation for what will surely be a heated Republican convention, Donald Trump has hired an experienced political operative to help wrangle GOP delegates: Paul Manafort, a strategist with three decades of Republican conventions under his belt, who has also worked for some unsavory international clients.

That roster includes the pro-Russian former president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, who was deposed in a popular revolution in 2013.

As Quartz reported earlier this month, Trump’s foreign policy advisors also include Carter Page, a former advisor and current shareholder in the state-controlled Russian natural gas giant, Gazprom, who has advocated for a less adversarial US stance toward Moscow. Bloomberg spoke with Sergey Yatsenko, a former Gazprom official who is now an official adviser to Page’s firm, who said Page “understands what’s going on in Russia … He doesn’t make strong judgments.”
https://qz.com/650201/donald-trump-...rmer-president-putin-buddy-viktor-yanukovych/

So it is remarkable that if the Obama Admin/FBI created this secret plot prior to April 2016, that they somehow were able to know in advance that all of these pro-Putin elements would subsequently be joining Team Trump in March and April. So did Obama force team Trump to hire people with Russian connections in order to validate the "conspiracy theory" they created to "slander" Trump? Is that what happened?

So was Obama the puppet master that manipulated Team Trump into committing crazy suspicious acts, like sending Carter Page to Moscow in July 2016? Convince me that there was NO basis for anyone to be suspicious of events that Spring and summer, including the visit of an earlier target of recruitment by Russian Intelligence to a Conference where he made speeches calling for an end to US sanctions against the Russian Energy Sector. Which of course included the previously mentioned Gazprom...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/us/politics/carter-page-russia-trump.html


Carter Page criticized American policies toward Russia at the New Economic School in Moscow in July, echoing the positions of President Vladimir V. Putin.Credit...Anton Denisov/Sputnik, via Associated Press

I appreciate the effort you obviously put into this post.

Part of the problem here is the difference between a counter-intelligence investigation and a criminal investigation.

I don't intend to discuss the counter-intelligence piece which is the subject of your post. That has enough problems as shown by the several IG reports about the FBI FISA violations and as shown by the FISA court orders about that process. And don't forget some of the material suggesting abuses is still behind the wall of "national security" concealment.

The criminal investigation is where we find a clear effort to use the legal process to overturn the 2016 election. The recently released Scope of Investigation and Definition of Authority issued to the SC, read together with the governments MTD in the Flynn case pretty clearly lays out the serious problems.

Most important was the January 4, 2017 meeting in the Whtie House. The meeting was called to discuss the status of the counter-intelligence investigation. Fair enough. Counter intellgince is POTUS business even if the investigation was woefully inept and bungled. When the CI portion of the meeting concluded, Obama requested a smaller group to stay behind. That group included Obama, Biden, Comey, and Yates. The subject was criminal investigation involving Flynn and others. After that meeting, according to Comey's very public statements, he broke protocol with the Flynn interview, he met with Trump and leaked his self-serving notes hoping the gin up public pressure for a special counsel, and went on and on about obstruction of justice. According to Yates, Obama was already up to speed on Flynn investigative material and the never-prosecuted Logan Act was brought up about Flynn in Obama's presence. The documents are unclear, but can be read to say that a Logan Act prosecution was Obama's idea.

While many lawyers (e.g. Turley, Dershowitz, McCarthy) suspected there was no basis for a special counsel appointment, Mueller was appointed anyway. The documents conclusively show the statutory threshold for the appointment was never met. The time line shows that the White House was involved from the start. To have general government officials involved with such matters is the stuff that make banana republics. There is a generally recognized wall of separation between general government and criminal prosecutions--especially this one that had strong political overtones.

In an effort to get ahead of the coming shitstorm, Obama had a virtual meeting just a couple of days ago, with his staff where he issued Flynn talking points. In that meeting he called Flynn a confessed perjurer. That was a lie, but it's a good talking point especially to a sympathetic press who don't know the difference, or don't care about the difference, between perjury and what Flynn pleaded to.

This stinks now. But there is more to come.