Ashlii Babbitt

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I’m not brushing anything off. If someone proposes a good idea to lessen racism or improve equality of opportunity, I’m all ears.

Most of what I hear from today’s left is misguided admonishing. Not that I believe you’re doing that, but if you’re going to claim there’s a problem I need specifics.

I'm still not seeing you agree that this is a real problem to actually talk about.

One side is saying that it's possible for societal structures to be racist, even if the individuals that currently make up those structures are not.

If you continue to disagree with that, fine, let's talk about our disagreement.

But don't simply jump ahead to "solutions." Either agree or disagree with the proposition first. If you agree, we can move on to solutions. If you disagree, we need to talk about why we disagree, because solutions are meaningless if we can't even agree on the problem.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I'm still not seeing you agree that this is a real problem to actually talk about.

One side is saying that it's possible for societal structures to be racist, even if the individuals that currently make up those structures are not.

If you continue to disagree with that, fine, let's talk about our disagreement.

But don't simply jump ahead to "solutions." Either agree or disagree with the proposition first. If you agree, we can move on to solutions. If you disagree, we need to talk about why we disagree, because solutions are meaningless if we can't even agree on the problem.

“Structural racism” is not a problem. It’s an idea. The civil right’s movement and the civil war were fought against specific policy and people. If those are wrong today we need to address them.

This isn’t a 12 step program.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

“Structural racism” is not a problem. It’s an idea. The civil right’s movement and the civil war were fought against specific policy and people. If those are wrong today we need to address them.

This isn’t a 12 step program.

Then we disagree on a fundamental fact that prevents solutions. Structural racism is a thing. I think there's plenty of evidence of that. You disagree. You want to hash that out, I'm down.

 

[mcmurtry66]

“Structural racism” is not a problem. It’s an idea. The civil right’s movement and the civil war were fought against specific policy and people. If those are wrong today we need to address them.

This isn’t a 12 step program.

I’ve always understood structural racism to have a temporal element. It’s the same thing as systemic (policies, institutions/etc) but contemplates the history and culture that gave rise to the racism that may exist in long-established polices and institutions - whether they be education or courts or whatever. So it transcends generations. I understand goat’s angle. Understanding the history of racism and its genesis in a given institution or system eliminates the need for the particulars of the behavior or actions of any one or group of individuals

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I’ve always understood structural racism to have a temporal element. It’s the same thing as systemic (policies, institutions/etc) but contemplates the history and culture that gave rise to the racism that may exist in long-established polices and institutions - whether they be education or courts or whatever. So it transcends generations. I understand goat’s angle. Understanding the history of racism and its genesis in a given institution or system eliminates the need for the particulars of the behavior or actions of any one or group of individuals

Things take a long time to play out. Much of our legal terminology only exists because a French descendant of Vikings invaded England almost 1000 years ago. Generational is an understatement.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Then we disagree on a fundamental fact that prevents solutions. Structural racism is a thing. I think there's plenty of evidence of that. You disagree. You want to hash that out, I'm down.

I have a feeling that if I granted the fact that structural racism is a problem, no one would have a realistic solution that didn’t infringe on others’ civil liberties and or right to fairness.

I reamed out my black, female underwriter underwriter yesterday because she took her 4th day off in two weeks and was slow on a deliverable needed to close a massive account. I’ve reported up to mostly females in my life and they’ve all been excellent, some of the men have been shit. But my best boss was a Mexican immigrant I also reamed out my fiancé the other day, who is half black. She reamed me back.

I say all this to highlight the idea that I try base people on their competence and character. That’s all any of us can do individually to combat “structural racism”.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I have a feeling that if I granted the fact that structural racism is a problem, no one would have a realistic solution that didn’t infringe on others’ civil liberties and or right to fairness.

This sentence is just you disagreeing with me on the fundamental issue and again trying to jump it to something more comfortable for you. The rest of your post is lame "I have black friends" nonsense.

If you don't want to debate whether structural racism is a problem, just say so. I'll leave you alone and ignore you on this topic moving forward.

 

[HooDatGuy]

This sentence is just you disagreeing with me on the fundamental issue and again trying to jump it to something more comfortable for you. The rest of your post is lame "I have black friends" nonsense.

If you don't want to debate whether structural racism is a problem, just say so. I'll leave you alone and ignore you on this topic moving forward.

It’s a problem. What next?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It’s a problem. What next?

Good question. I have thoughts, but need a minute. I'm not ignoring you.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I think acknowledging that it's a real problem would be a good start.

To what end? If people aren’t the problem but some mythical “system” is, but not people, then what do we, the people (not the problem apparently) do about it since we aren’t the problem?

It’s a liberal conspiracy theory, much like the Big Lie or much like QAnon on the Trump side. But we, the moderate republicans, understand it to be. Liberals just HAVE to blame something - anything - to avoid personal responsibility.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Good question. I have thoughts, but need a minute. I'm not ignoring you.

Make sure your response includes handling how people who are perpetually brainwashed to believe the system is rigged against them are supposed to take control over their lives.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

To what end? If people aren’t the problem but some mythical “system” is, but not people, then what do we, the people (not the problem apparently) do about it since we aren’t the problem?

It’s a liberal conspiracy theory, much like the Big Lie or much like QAnon on the Trump side. But we, the moderate republicans, understand it to be. Liberals just HAVE to blame something - anything - to avoid personal responsibility.

The system is built by people. Many of them long past. But people today still have the power to rebuild it.

Make sure your response includes handling how people who are perpetually brainwashed to believe the system is rigged against them are supposed to take control over their lives.

I will do that.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I'm afraid, Ranger, this is a critical divide in our nation, which affects even smart, objective people, and not just partisan hacks. You think it's perfectly reasonable to translate that as "cops are racists." I do not. This is the crux of our argument over CRT, and the difference between how I interpret it - and what you say CRT's original intention may have been - and how you interpret it - and what you say is how it is applied now. I don't know how to make it clearer than to just say this: Claims of structural racism are not claims that the people who are part of the system are themselves racist as individuals. If you don't believe that distinction is possible to draw, then we can never have a meaningful conversation about this, because the entire fight against structural racism rests on not conflating it with individual racism.

Edit: Forgive me Ranger, I don't mean to cut off discussion with this, if it came off that way. It's just a bit frustrating that you and I appear to be talking past each other, and I thought we could get over that by now.

I don’t need to forgive you, you’ve committed no offense. But when you use words like, and I paraphrase: “people aren’t necessarily responsible anymore for the racist system but the system is racist” it makes me want to sharpen a pencil and shove it in my eye. That’s as meaningless a statement as one can make. But if you really believe that in your heart of hearts then shame on you for casting a vote for Joe Biden, a chief architect of a crime bill that likely ends up hurting black people more than anybody else. How do you deal with that?

What’s the endgame for you? Reparations? You really think that’ll do it?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don’t need to forgive you, you’ve committed no offense. But when you use words like, and I paraphrase: “people aren’t necessarily responsible anymore for the racist system but the system is racist” it makes me want to sharpen a pencil and shove it in my eye. That’s as meaningless a statement as one can make. But if you really believe that in your heart of hearts then shame on you for casting a vote for Joe Biden, a chief architect of a crime bill that likely ends up hurting black people more than anybody else. How do you deal with that?

What’s the endgame for you? Reparations? You really think that’ll do it?

You're making the same mistake Farva did by jumping to the endgame.

I'm going to bed. I look forward to our continuation tomorrow.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Make sure your response includes handling how people who are perpetually brainwashed to believe the system is rigged against them are supposed to take control over their lives.

One of the primary strategies political parties use to recruit.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

It’s a problem. What next?

Wrong questions produce wrong answers.

Identify the "institution" and how it is allegedly racist, and I can tell you if, whether, and how I agree or disagree.

I'll give you an example.

I might say "the public education system is inherently racist because the material selected for study and the tests used to measure success/progress are racially biased in favor of whites." You can then agree with reasons or disagree with reasons.

Or I can say "The criminal justice system is inherently racist because statistics show that minorities are 27% of the population but 35% of people who are incarcerated." You could then again agree or disagree with or without reasons.

Trying to start this "discussion" by saying "unidentified institutions are racist in unspecified ways" is just more partisan bullshit.

Its the same thing as saying "Can't we agree we both want justice?" The bullshit answer is "of course - everyone LOVES them some justice."

The REAL answer is "that depends on what you mean by justice - which in every circumstance is subjective and subject to disagreement. " Example - if you gave Derek Chauvin life in prison, some folks would say "justice" - others would say "no, justice is the death penalty" and others would say "no, justice is less time" and some would say " justice is XXXXX".

So ask me which institution and HOW it is racist so we can discuss it.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Wrong questions produce wrong answers.

Identify the "institution" and how it is allegedly racist, and I can tell you if, whether, and how I agree or disagree.

I'll give you an example.

I might say "the public education system is inherently racist because the material selected for study and the tests used to measure success/progress are racially biased in favor of whites." You can then agree with reasons or disagree with reasons.

Or I can say "The criminal justice system is inherently racist because statistics show that minorities are 27% of the population but 35% of people who are incarcerated." You could then again agree or disagree with or without reasons.

Trying to start this "discussion" by saying "unidentified institutions are racist in unspecified ways" is just more partisan bullshit.

Its the same thing as saying "Can't we agree we both want justice?" The bullshit answer is "of course - everyone LOVES them some justice."

The REAL answer is "that depends on what you mean by justice - which in every circumstance is subjective and subject to disagreement. " Example - if you gave Derek Chauvin life in prison, some folks would say "justice" - others would say "no, justice is the death penalty" and others would say "no, justice is less time" and some would say " justice is XXXXX".

So ask me which institution and HOW it is racist so we can discuss it.

The problem with the systemic racism claim is that the answer to how to address it is always the same tired “well acknowledging it would be a good start”.

Even if you were to grant that it is a problem I don’t see a way to address it that doesn’t trample on every belief we have a about fairness.

“Colorblindness” although trite and often ridiculed is the only way.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Wrong questions produce wrong answers.

Identify the "institution" and how it is allegedly racist, and I can tell you if, whether, and how I agree or disagree.

I'll give you an example.

I might say "the public education system is inherently racist because the material selected for study and the tests used to measure success/progress are racially biased in favor of whites." You can then agree with reasons or disagree with reasons.

Or I can say "The criminal justice system is inherently racist because statistics show that minorities are 27% of the population but 35% of people who are incarcerated." You could then again agree or disagree with or without reasons.

Trying to start this "discussion" by saying "unidentified institutions are racist in unspecified ways" is just more partisan bullshit.

Its the same thing as saying "Can't we agree we both want justice?" The bullshit answer is "of course - everyone LOVES them some justice."

The REAL answer is "that depends on what you mean by justice - which in every circumstance is subjective and subject to disagreement. " Example - if you gave Derek Chauvin life in prison, some folks would say "justice" - others would say "no, justice is the death penalty" and others would say "no, justice is less time" and some would say " justice is XXXXX".

So ask me which institution and HOW it is racist so we can discuss it.

spot on. and it goes further than that. what criminal justice system? the one in jefferson county or monroe county or saint louis county