Are Archie's Systems Capable of Succeeding In The Big 10?

IUFANBB

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I am not a fan of always changing coaches & want Archie to succeed. But I am not convinced that you can run his defense with players who dominate our league. Teams with multiple 6-11 & 7 footers who are 250-285lbs.

There are big kids all over this conference who are dominating, & we never even sniffed at most of them. Is it because they are not fast enough to run his offense & defense? Look at the Rivals pages of big men all over this conference; very few have offers from IU.

To me, the question is - Can Archie's systems handle the size & physicality of the Big 10? Is it always going to be a big man problem with this system when we go up against Purdue, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, and etc.. all with more size and physicality? I think that Michigan is really going to show us how far behind the 8 ball we really are.

If he can't succeed with his stuff, then it is not going to get better unless the whole conference starts recruiting 6-9 & 220 centers as their ceiling. I doubt that is going to happen.
 

Coach Geez

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I am not a fan of always changing coaches & want Archie to succeed. But I am not convinced that you can run his defense with players who dominate our league. Teams with multiple 6-11 & 7 footers who are 250-285lbs.

There are big kids all over this conference who are dominating, & we never even sniffed at most of them. Is it because they are not fast enough to run his offense & defense? Look at the Rivals pages of big men all over this conference; very few have offers from IU.

To me, the question is - Can Archie's systems handle the size & physicality of the Big 10? Is it always going to be a big man problem with this system when we go up against Purdue, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, and etc.. all with more size and physicality? I think that Michigan is really going to show us how far behind the 8 ball we really are.

If he can't succeed with his stuff, then it is not going to get better unless the whole conference starts recruiting 6-9 & 220 centers as their ceiling. I doubt that is going to happen.

To be fair, we have a 7 foot 250 lb big sitting out due to unforeseen back surgery and lost our best defender to transfer. A front court of Brunk, TJD, Race Thompson, and Justin Smith would have been more than adequate this year and likely one of the more deeper one’s in the conference.
 

Coach Geez

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And I think you’re exaggerating to a degree. Wisconsin and Northwestern are the only two teams who start multiple players 6’9 or taller in their front court and Pete Nance goes 225 and Robbie Beran goes 215, not exactly the 250-280 lbs behemoth’s you ascribed. Yes IU does lack depth in the front court department with Trayce and Race being the only two true front court players, but again, a lot of that falls on Brunk’s untimely and unexpected injury.
 
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T.M.P.

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I am not a fan of always changing coaches & want Archie to succeed. But I am not convinced that you can run his defense with players who dominate our league. Teams with multiple 6-11 & 7 footers who are 250-285lbs.

There are big kids all over this conference who are dominating, & we never even sniffed at most of them. Is it because they are not fast enough to run his offense & defense? Look at the Rivals pages of big men all over this conference; very few have offers from IU.

To me, the question is - Can Archie's systems handle the size & physicality of the Big 10? Is it always going to be a big man problem with this system when we go up against Purdue, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, and etc.. all with more size and physicality? I think that Michigan is really going to show us how far behind the 8 ball we really are.

If he can't succeed with his stuff, then it is not going to get better unless the whole conference starts recruiting 6-9 & 220 centers as their ceiling. I doubt that is going to happen.
Maybe you should have looked at the rotations of other 13 teams, noting the height and weight of the players, before making this thread. Because you obviously didn't..
 

IUFANBB

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Maybe you should have looked at the rotations of other 13 teams, noting the height and weight of the players, before making this thread. Because you obviously didn't..
I am looking at rosters - Michigan - 7.1/255, 6.10/240, 6.10/250/6.9/235; Illinois - 6.9/245, 7/285, 6.10/245, 6.10/200, 7/220, 6.9/235. Purdue - 6.10/245, 7.4/285, 6.9/210, 6.10/265 IU - 6.9/245, 6.8/228 & 6.11/255 (Not Playing)
 
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Coach Geez

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I am looking at rosters - Michigan - 7.1/255, 6.10/240, 6.10/250/6.9/235; Illinois - 6.9/245, 7/285, 6.10/245, 6.10/200, 7/220, 6.9/235. IU

How many of those guys actually play? Cockburn goes 7’ 280 and then Illinois doesn’t start anybody over 6’5. The foreign guy (not even going to try and spell his name) comes off the bench and isn’t any bigger than Trayce or Race.

Ohio State doesn’t play anybody over 6’8 and their starting front court is 6’8, 6’7.
 
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Coach Geez

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I am looking at rosters - Michigan - 7.1/255, 6.10/240, 6.10/250/6.9/235; Illinois - 6.9/245, 7/285, 6.10/245, 6.10/200, 7/220, 6.9/235. Purdue - 6.10/245, 7.4/285, 6.9/210, 6.10/265 IU - 6.9/245, 6.8/228 & 6.11/255 (Not Playing)

What roster are you looking at for Purdue??? Tre Williams at 6’10 is a grown man but after that start 6’6 Mason Gillis at the 4 and then in comes Aaron Wheeler who barely breaks 200 lbs that plays out on the perimeter. Edey at 7’4 is massive but uncoordinated barely plays over 10 minutes a game in conference.
 
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IUFANBB

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How many of those guys actually play? Cockburn goes 7’ 280 and then Illinois doesn’t start anybody over 6’5. The foreign guy (not even going to try and spell his name) comes off the bench and isn’t any bigger than Trayce or Race.

Ohio State doesn’t play anybody over 6’8 and their starting front court is 6’8, 6’7.
I don't know; we just look little to me. We
What roster are you looking at for Purdue??? Tre Williams at 6’10 is a grown man but after that start 6’6 Mason Gillis at the 4 and then in comes Aaron Wheeler who barely breaks 200 lbs that plays out on the perimeter. Edey at 7’4 is massive but uncoordinated barely plays over 10 minutes a game in conference.
The ESPN rosters - Dowuona - 6.10/245; Edy - 7.4/285; wheeler - 6.9/220; williams - 6.10/265
 

Coach Geez

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I don't know; we just look little to me. We

The ESPN rosters - Dowuona - 6.10/245; Edy - 7.4/285; wheeler - 6.9/220; williams - 6.10/265

Duwuona hasn’t played a minute this year (he’s hurt) and played all of 31 minutes last year and those are likely the only 31 minutes he’ll ever play in a Purdue uniform. Purdue’s website lists Wheeler at 205 and that’s after 3 meals in a wet T-Shirt. Using Aaron Wheeler to demonstrate how Indiana lacks size and strength is as silly as it gets.
 

.Gerdis

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To be fair, we have a 7 foot 250 lb big sitting out due to unforeseen back surgery and lost our best defender to transfer. A front court of Brunk, TJD, Race Thompson, and Justin Smith would have been more than adequate this year and likely one of the more deeper one’s in the conference.

that’s correct. Archie was planning on having a deep front court this season. The problem is that his plan also accentuates how he has utterly failed at roster construction and building a front court for the future.

His plan:
This year - Smith, Brunk, TJD, Race

Next year - Race (in his final year), and Duncomb

Now, Covid has thrown all that up in the air with the new transfer and eligibility rules, but when I look in the rear view mirror, I have to question what in the world was Miller thinking? The only thing that I can think of is that Miller has been pressing since day 1. He is feeling heat to win right away and has been willing to put all of his eggs into this season’s basket.

four years in and Race will be his only veteran front court player?
 

Coach Geez

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that’s correct. Archie was planning on having a deep front court this season. The problem is that his plan also accentuates how he has utterly failed at roster construction and building a front court for the future.

His plan:
This year - Smith, Brunk, TJD, Race

Next year - Race (in his final year), and Duncomb

Now, Covid has thrown all that up in the air with the new transfer and eligibility rules, but when I look in the rear view mirror, I have to question what in the world was Miller thinking? The only thing that I can think of is that Miller has been pressing since day 1. He is feeling heat to win right away and has been willing to put all of his eggs into this season’s basket.

four years in and Race will be his only veteran front court player?

Few holes in this and a lot of assumptions.

I wouldn't write off TJD and/or Joey Brunk returning next year. A front court next year of TJD, Race, Brunk and Duncomb erases anything you've said. I wouldn't rule it out by any stretch.

With the new transfer rule and a free eligibility year, the impact of a recruiting miss such as TK is less magnified to a degree. I would wait to see who stays and who goes and who Miller is able to bring in from the transfer market before calling his roster construction an utter failure. For all we know, our entire front court returns next year and IU likely has the best front court in the B10.
 

.Gerdis

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Few holes in this and a lot of assumptions.

I wouldn't write off TJD and/or Joey Brunk returning next year. A front court next year of TJD, Race, Brunk and Duncomb erases anything you've said. I wouldn't rule it out by any stretch.

With the new transfer rule and a free eligibility year, the impact of a recruiting miss such as TK is less magnified to a degree. I would wait to see who stays and who goes and who Miller is able to bring in from the transfer market before calling his roster construction an utter failure. For all we know, our entire front court returns next year and IU likely has the best front court in the B10.

That may be the case, but it wouldn’t be due to planning, or having a vision for the future.

it would be due to changes from an unforeseen pandemic.
 

UTFO

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From the looks of it, no. 0-10 v. Purdue is an ominous sign.
 

Coach Geez

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That may be the case, but it wouldn’t be due to planning, or having a vision for the future.

Again that is another assumption. You have no clue whether or not TJD and/or Brunk have told Archie their intentions for next year.

And I wouldn't say he doesn't have a vision/plan either. IU targeted Duncomb and Trey Kaufman, recruited the latter HARD. He got one, didn't land the other. He may not have executed his plan but the vision was definitely there. His recruiting approach is entirely different (and better) than the previous coach who wildly threw scholarships and chased stars. Archie is very selective in who he offers.
 
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hookyIU1990

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We'd have a much better W-L record with him than we do without. And it made the injury to Brunk that much more severe... Injuries happen. Coaches have to have a backup plan. We have none. This is all on CAM

Dude decided he didn't want to play here and left. He wasn't kicked off the team.

He's still Justin Smith, even though he's playing somewhere else.

45% FG - Worst of his career
15% 3PT - Worst of his career
56% FT - Worst of his career
1.7 TO/game - 2nd worst of his career
Scoring Efficiency and Shooting Efficiency are also at career lows.
He is having his best rebounding year ever by 1.2/game and his assists are a career best 1.1/game, up from .9/game last year.

Most of those stats are accumulated against an OOC schedule that would make Crean blush too.


Plenty of valid things to complain about when it comes to Archie. Not having Smith isn't one of them.
 

Coach Geez

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Dude decided he didn't want to play here and left. He wasn't kicked off the team.

He's still Justin Smith, even though he's playing somewhere else.

45% FG - Worst of his career
15% 3PT - Worst of his career
56% FT - Worst of his career
1.7 TO/game - 2nd worst of his career
Scoring Efficiency and Shooting Efficiency are also at career lows.
He is having his best rebounding year ever by 1.2/game and his assists are a career best 1.1/game, up from .9/game last year.

Most of those stats are accumulated against an OOC schedule that would make Crean blush too.


Plenty of valid things to complain about when it comes to Archie. Not having Smith isn't one of them.

Exactly. IU's issues this year don't stem from their front court issues, although not having Brunk is a lost luxury. Just another thing to complain about.

Make a thread about IU's lack of shooting, development from guards not named AF, etc and I wouldn't say anything.
 

HoosierJimbo89

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The offense is way more concerning than defense, although the thin frontcourt this year is concerning. As Sammy said above, we didn't have a plan B or C. I'd rather have an advantage in the front court than a disadvantage. Archie will never be successful at IU with the offensive production he has put forth, and his record reflects this.
 

mathboy

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When you look hard at Archie's coaching you have to keep in mind several aspects:

1. His coaching skills, like in-game management and game planning. Here I suspect that he is improving year-over-year. He is young and not dumb. He is going to keep learning his trade and improve in this area if IU keeps him around. Better assistants might help.

2. His recruiting: I think he has done fairly well with this. He comes across as a no-nonsense guy. He has not alienated the Indiana high school and AAU coaching fraternity like Crean, so he should continue to get good players. You can win with less than 5-star players in the right system.

3. His roster planning: I think this is a weakness that can be improved. He doesn't have the right players on the court. Not enough talented big men. Guards that can't hit baskets consistently. Again, this is a learning situation and he will no doubt improve how he builds his teams.

4. Player development: I don't see rapid and useful development of his players right now. The freshmen are not having the impact they should. The team play is getting better as the year goes along, but put the team under pressure and they tend to revert to one-on-one basketball IMHO. Throw it to TJD and stand around watching... Not sure this will improve over time with the current situation.

4. Lastly, you need to asses his motivational capability: Here is also a weakness that I don't see improving much over the years. Archie is still Archie. That won't change, so I think he will need to find assistant coaches to provide this aspect of running the IU team.

Just my two cents based on watching IU basketball as an ignorant and casual fan.
 
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Champs1976

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As bad as the front court issues, it is the back court issues that are killing this team. IU can't shoot and can't defend the three. Archie has had four years to coach or bring in shooters. IU plays Iowa tonight. Any guesses as to the three point shooting percentages of their starting five? four of the five are over 40%! Garza shoots threes at a 47% rate. TJD can't consistently hit mid-range jumpers, much less threes. IU can't shoot FTs and this is from a coach that wants his team to go to the line a lot. Whatever his schemes are, packline on D and God knows what on O, they aren't working. Lastly the regularity of this team failing to "show up on time" when games start and long effort lapses during games is infuriating. Maybe the players all want to succeed, but they don't seem to know how and Archie isn't coaching them up to succeed. A team culture is set by the coach, IU is what it is because it is, certainly at this point, Archie's culture. This is the fourth year in a row the leadership within the team is non-existent and Archie is not forcing it. There is no one in this whole program that has a "refuse to lose" attitude.
 
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IUFANBB

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How many of those guys actually play? Cockburn goes 7’ 280 and then Illinois doesn’t start anybody over 6’5. The foreign guy (not even going to try and spell his name) comes off the bench and isn’t any bigger than Trayce or Race.

Ohio State doesn’t play anybody over 6’8 and their starting front court is 6’8, 6’7.
I never mentioned OSU's little guys & I did not know they were in 1st place? Is that our bar, be as good as OSU?
 

Coach Geez

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I never mentioned OSU's little guys & I did not know they were in 1st place? Is that our bar, be as good as OSU?

So what’s your goal? Be 1st place Iowa who starts a 7 footer and then 4 guards none of which who are over 6’5? What are you saying?
 

IUFANBB

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When you look hard at Archie's coaching you have to keep in mind several aspects:

1. His coaching skills, like in-game management and game planning. Here I suspect that he is improving year-over-year. He is young and not dumb. He is going to keep learning his trade and improve in this area if IU keeps him around. Better assistants might help.

2. His recruiting: I think he has done fairly well with this. He comes across as a no-nonsense guy. He has not alienated the Indiana high school and AAU coaching fraternity like Crean, so he should continue to get good players. You can win with less than 5-star players in the right system.

3. His roster planning: I think this is a weakness that can be improved. He doesn't have the right players on the court. Not enough talented big men. Guards that can't hit baskets consistently. Again, this is a learning situation and he will no doubt improve how he builds his teams.

4. Player development: I don't see rapid and useful development of his players right now. The freshmen are not having the impact they should. The team play is getting better as the year goes along, but put the team under pressure and they tend to revert to one-on-one basketball IMHO. Throw it to TJD and stand around watching... Not sure this will improve over time with the current situation.

4. Lastly, you need to asses his motivational capability: Here is also a weakness that I don't see improving much over the years. Archie is still Archie. That won't change, so I think he will need to find assistant coaches to provide this aspect of running the IU team.

Just my two cents based on watching IU basketball as an ignorant and casual fan.
I am predicting that Jack Nunge will have a good game tonight. He had a number of offers but not IU. He was skinny and tall & Iowa built him up. Didn't we used to do that?
 
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Coach Geez

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I am predicting that Jack Nunge will have a good game tonight. He had a number of offers but not IU. He was skinny and tall & Iowa built him up. Didn't we used to do that?

Please tell me this rant isn’t stemming because IU didn’t offer a kid from Evansville whose played in 50 career games in a 4 year period?
 

IUFANBB

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Please tell me this rant isn’t stemming because IU didn’t offer a kid from Evansville whose played in 50 career games in a 4 year period?
First of all, it was not a rant. I just insinuated that IU does not seem to recruit a lot of big men depth & did not offer other big men from our conference. Is that because of Archie's philosophies? He would rather play a much smaller faster team? I just think that we look small/skinny & have for the last few years. Next year we could be staring at RT & a freshman down low.
 

go_iu

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I am not a fan of always changing coaches & want Archie to succeed. But I am not convinced that you can run his defense with players who dominate our league. Teams with multiple 6-11 & 7 footers who are 250-285lbs.

There are big kids all over this conference who are dominating, & we never even sniffed at most of them. Is it because they are not fast enough to run his offense & defense? Look at the Rivals pages of big men all over this conference; very few have offers from IU.

To me, the question is - Can Archie's systems handle the size & physicality of the Big 10? Is it always going to be a big man problem with this system when we go up against Purdue, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, and etc.. all with more size and physicality? I think that Michigan is really going to show us how far behind the 8 ball we really are.

If he can't succeed with his stuff, then it is not going to get better unless the whole conference starts recruiting 6-9 & 220 centers as their ceiling. I doubt that is going to happen.
I don't think it Archie's system, the problem is Archie can't recruit, develop or run a offense that is attractive for big dudes. His major problem is that. It might work on year in your career with success, but to try to sell small ball to bigs and forced to play out of position is not exactly a way to recruit
 

T.M.P.

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I just think that we look small/skinny & have for the last few years.
You should have checked the last few years rotations highlighting the height and weight of the players before making this post. It's obvious you didn't... and it's also obvious your perception alone isn't cutting it.
 

SoccerSammy

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the only thing obvious is that nothing Archie is doing leads to the number of wins Indiana fans have come to expect.... The details are superfluous.... it ain't working
 
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evvcabinetman

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Sure you could win running Archies system in the big 10. Not without shooters though. Nobody’s system works without shooters today. When he is eventually fired, it will be his complete failure at evaluating/recruiting/developing shooters in particular and guards in general that will be the primary reason.
 

go_iu

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Sure you could win running Archies system in the big 10. Not without shooters though. Nobody’s system works without shooters today. When he is eventually fired, it will be his complete failure at evaluating/recruiting/developing shooters in particular and guards in general that will be the primary reason.
I'm really not so critical about him not "developing" shooters, more so that he doesn't recruit them. I mean, shooting is learned at an early age, not saying it still can't be worked on in college still, but $hit, I can still shoot better than these guys at 50 and could when I was in 7th grade. Shooting doesn't equate to a D1 athlete, I certainly wasn't, but there are lots of Tom Coverdales that can and are out there and we're not finding them anymore
 
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Coach Geez

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I'm really not so critical about him not "developing" shooters, more so that he doesn't recruit them. I mean, shooting is learned at an early age, not saying it still can't be worked on in college still, but $hit, I can still shoot better than these guys at 50 and could when I was in 7th grade. Shooting doesn't equate to a D1 athlete, I certainly wasn't, but there are lots of Tom Coverdales that can and are out there and we're not finding them anymore


Lol
 

HoosierJimbo89

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So, about IU being at a size disadvantage. Iowa is killing us down low, difference of the game. Archie has handicapped IU.