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Archie's Fatal Flaw

Frosty83

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Oct 29, 2011
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Put your superstar on the bench. As a coach you cannot pull your superstar out for lack of effort and then put him right back in. You have to be willing to give up a game for a lesson learned. (hopefully your bench can still pull it out) TJD came out lazy and disengaged. In fact several of the players did. Archie frequently pulls those kids out and then puts them back in unless they are a reserve, then they never come back on the court. The problem is Archie would do so much better if he held his starters to a higher standard than his bench. That strategy sounds like the typical high school coach who is trying to keep the important people in the community happy by not embarrassing their son. The problem is you will also lose your bench kids because they see the double standard in treatment and your star player will be come a spoiled prima donna who thinks he can get away with things. I think he does a very good job, is a hard worker, nice man and he likes kids. He just isn't willing to bench them for the rest of the game and that is why he is having trouble getting IU to play consistently.
 
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Give up the game to teach him a lesson? This board would crap itself in so many ways.
 
Put your superstar on the bench. As a coach you cannot pull your superstar out for lack of effort and then put him right back in. You have to be willing to give up a game for a lesson learned. (hopefully your bench can still pull it out) TJD came out lazy and disengaged. In fact several of the players did. Archie frequently pulls those kids out and then puts them back in unless they are a reserve, then they never come back on the court. The problem is Archie would do so much better if he held his starters to a higher standard than his bench. That strategy sounds like the typical high school coach who is trying to keep the important people in the community happy by not embarrassing their son. The problem is you will also lose your bench kids because they see the double standard in treatment and your star player will be come a spoiled prima donna who thinks he can get away with things. I think he does a very good job, is a hard worker, nice man and he likes kids. He just isn't willing to bench them for the rest of the game and that is why he is having trouble getting IU to play consistently.
The cultural issues that a few of us have been pointing to are exemplified by your post. Winning cultures are wholly intolerant of poor effort and unsound decision making, and penalize both without exception. The team‘s best player or the last guy on the bench need to live by the highest of standards. Period. Or you don’t play. And if it persists, you don’t stay.
That’s never been a coaching tactic of Miller’s.

As such, players learn that there aren’t ramifications for those infractions, and that they really aren’t infractions at all. Show up not ready to play? No problem, it’s early and playing at that hour is tough. Continually make mental errors? It’s okay. Hard to keep everything straight sometimes. Exert less than maximum effort? Take it easy on yourself. Repeatedly be a liability at the free throw line? Hey, you can’t make ‘em all, so don’t hang your head.

Culture runs laps around scheme. As it is, we just look like we’re running in circles.
 
The cultural issues that a few of us have been pointing to are exemplified by your post. Winning cultures are wholly intolerant of poor effort and unsound decision making, and penalize both without exception. The team‘s best player or the last guy on the bench need to live by the highest of standards. Period. Or you don’t play. And if it persists, you don’t stay.
That’s never been a coaching tactic of Miller’s.

As such, players learn that there aren’t ramifications for those infractions, and that they really aren’t infractions at all. Show up not ready to play? No problem, it’s early and playing at that hour is tough. Continually make mental errors? It’s okay. Hard to keep everything straight sometimes. Exert less than maximum effort? Take it easy on yourself. Repeatedly be a liability at the free throw line? Hey, you can’t make ‘em all, so don’t hang your head.

Culture runs laps around scheme. As it is, we just look like we’re running in circles.

It has long been reported that Archie has a way of playing favorites on the team.
Many said: “It’s just some bad apples on the team. Once we get them out, we’ll be good.”

They leave. Nothing changes.

It’s not players holding it down so much as it’s the one consistent factor for 4 seasons. The coach.
 
In the Iowa game they started their big run with TJD on the bench and played big portions of the final 10 minutes with him sitting.

I’m no Arch apologist, but remember, there is another team out there competing as well. And they try real hard too.
 
It has long been reported that Archie has a way of playing favorites on the team.
Many said: “It’s just some bad apples on the team. Once we get them out, we’ll be good.”

They leave. Nothing changes.

It’s not players holding it down so much as it’s the one consistent factor for 4 seasons. The coach.
My understanding is that the Romeo experience had a negative impact on Miller, which is somewhat strange since he experienced it at UA. Too much input from the “outside” coupled with the concern that mishandling high profile recruits would negatively impact his opportunity with similarly coveted high schoolers in the future caused him to take a different and less effective approach.
 
RMK sat the whole set of starters vs. Illinois. Steve Alford included for all the game. Message received they went on a rampage. For those who want results it takes a coach with balls and a teacher.
They lost 7 of their last 11 games in the Big 10, including the final three (the last of which marred Senior Day). So, not exactly a rampage (not a winning one, anyway).
 
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RMK sat the whole set of starters vs. Illinois. Steve Alford included for all the game. Message received they went on a rampage. For those who want results it takes a coach with balls and a teacher.
I remember that game dubbed "Uwe and the four freshmen". Different time then. No one would do that these days.
 
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RMK sat the whole set of starters vs. Illinois. Steve Alford included for all the game. Message received they went on a rampage. For those who want results it takes a coach with balls and a teacher.

In 96-97 he refused to call a timeout or do anything in a 50 point loss at Michigan, pretty sure. He didn't sub anybody for forever. It seemed like punishment.
 
In 96-97 he refused to call a timeout or do anything in a 50 point loss at Michigan, pretty sure. He didn't sub anybody for forever. It seemed like punishment.
Nah, it was strategy

The Big10 geniuses scheduled this:
Thurs: @Northwestern
Sun: @Minnesota
Tues: Illinois

We won @NU, bagged the Minny game, then came home and beat a ranked Illinois team
 
If I remember right, Painter made Trevion Williams come off the bench for 3 or 4 games early in the season. I think it's worked out for them
 
Put your superstar on the bench. As a coach you cannot pull your superstar out for lack of effort and then put him right back in. You have to be willing to give up a game for a lesson learned. (hopefully your bench can still pull it out) TJD came out lazy and disengaged. In fact several of the players did. Archie frequently pulls those kids out and then puts them back in unless they are a reserve, then they never come back on the court. The problem is Archie would do so much better if he held his starters to a higher standard than his bench. That strategy sounds like the typical high school coach who is trying to keep the important people in the community happy by not embarrassing their son. The problem is you will also lose your bench kids because they see the double standard in treatment and your star player will be come a spoiled prima donna who thinks he can get away with things. I think he does a very good job, is a hard worker, nice man and he likes kids. He just isn't willing to bench them for the rest of the game and that is why he is having trouble getting IU to play consistently.
If you benched every IU player for lack of effort over the last several years, we'd struggle to keep 5 players on the floor. Taking a guy out and setting them down to watch, talking with them and putting them back in is a very common strategy and technique. Benching a starter for a game, is more rare. Still can be an effective strategy, but it's rare and TJD has generally been the least of our problems.
 
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They lost 7 of their last 11 games in the Big 10, including the final three (the last of which marred Senior Day). So, not exactly a rampage (not a winning one, anyway).
Fast foreword to 87—Banner, lesson learned.
 
Fast foreword to 87—Banner, lesson learned.
That happened in large part because of the lesson learned against teams like Cleveland State (who bounced us from the tournament in ‘86), which were far more athletic than were we. Enter Keith Smart, Dean Garrett and Ricky Calloway (a fresh in 1985-86). Not downplaying what BK did that day against Illinois, but it didn’t really have the legendary impact that people were assuming it would. We were still slow and unathletic, we finished 7-11 in the conference (including the last 3), and that didn’t change because Knight sat some kids for a game in Champaign.
 
Put your superstar on the bench. As a coach you cannot pull your superstar out for lack of effort and then put him right back in. You have to be willing to give up a game for a lesson learned. (hopefully your bench can still pull it out) TJD came out lazy and disengaged. In fact several of the players did. Archie frequently pulls those kids out and then puts them back in unless they are a reserve, then they never come back on the court. The problem is Archie would do so much better if he held his starters to a higher standard than his bench. That strategy sounds like the typical high school coach who is trying to keep the important people in the community happy by not embarrassing their son. The problem is you will also lose your bench kids because they see the double standard in treatment and your star player will be come a spoiled prima donna who thinks he can get away with things. I think he does a very good job, is a hard worker, nice man and he likes kids. He just isn't willing to bench them for the rest of the game and that is why he is having trouble getting IU to play consistently.


I would describe his 'fatal flaw' more generally.........as being unable, whatever the cause, of inspiring his team to give 'max effort' an acceptable % of the time. By 'max effort' I mean playing hard for most games most of each game. I get it that no team plays hard 100% of the games, and 100% of the time within each game. But I would say that teams like Michigan & Wisconsin are emotionally ready for the start of the game 80-90% of the time. IU appears to be more like 40%. As a result we let teams like PSU, Maryland, Purdue, and Rutgers gain and maintain a lead throughout the first half. Then, typically, we also come out for the 2nd half half-assed. It's not until we're 10 points behind with 10 minutes to go in the game that they wake up.

It's a bizarre pattern but by know it's set in stone for Little Archie's teams. That's why he should not see year 5, regardless of whatever the hell we do v. Illinois.
 
I don't get the idea that a Player isn't ready to play or lacks effort. You have a Short Career and so many opportunities. You put effort in in practice and work to the point of exhaustion. The games should be the fun part that you look forward to and circle on the Calendar.

Players can see through a Coach who is incompetent, inconsistent, and a fake Leader with no substance. Once that happens there is no telling how far a Team will Fall.
 
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That happened in large part because of the lesson learned against teams like Cleveland State (who bounced us from the tournament in ‘86), which were far more athletic than were we. Enter Keith Smart, Dean Garrett and Ricky Calloway (a fresh in 1985-86). Not downplaying what BK did that day against Illinois, but it didn’t really have the legendary impact that people were assuming it would. We were still slow and unathletic, we finished 7-11 in the conference (including the last 3), and that didn’t change because Knight sat some kids for a game in Champaign.
I would argue that what RMK did vs IL in 85 had little-to-no impact on our NCAA run other than it helped with the maturation process of Alford and perhaps D Thomas. As you said, Calloway and our two Jucos weren't here in 85.
The ending of the 86 season - season on the brink- was a huge factor....after the fiasco of 84-85, the next season was very solid- in position to play for a tie for the B1G championship on the final day vs a loaded UM team...then we go to Ann Arbor and get steamrolled, then flop in the 1st round vs a coked-up Clev State squad. Terrible end to what had felt like a turn-around season. Bringing in Smart and Garrett went against RMK's normal m.o. but filled the glaring holes- backcourt quickness, and a big athletic post player who could block and change shots.

As for present day...the program is a mess. And not showing any signs of progress deep into year 4. The lethargic first half play by some yesterday was disappointing...but not surprising.
 
I would argue that what RMK did vs IL in 85 had little-to-no impact on our NCAA run other than it helped with the maturation process of Alford and perhaps D Thomas. As you said, Calloway and our two Jucos weren't here in 85.
The ending of the 86 season - season on the brink- was a huge factor....after the fiasco of 84-85, the next season was very solid- in position to play for a tie for the B1G championship on the final day vs a loaded UM team...then we go to Ann Arbor and get steamrolled, then flop in the 1st round vs a coked-up Clev State squad. Terrible end to what had felt like a turn-around season. Bringing in Smart and Garrett went against RMK's normal m.o. but filled the glaring holes- backcourt quickness, and a big athletic post player who could block and change shots.

As for present day...the program is a mess. And not showing any signs of progress deep into year 4. The lethargic first half play by some yesterday was disappointing...but not surprising.
Your memory is good but your observations are even better. To be fair, the only “coked up” CSUer I recall was the coach, Kevin Mackey, who stretched his 15 minutes of fame as far as he could. BK kind of reinvented himself with DG and KS, and that led to a recruiting resurgence that got us Calbert, Greg and Pat Graham, Reynolds, Bailey, Henderson, Nover . . . Our last really good team. Smart was a transformational player for us, but DG was the closest we ever got to another Ray Lee, who was so good and one of BK’s all time favorites.

Damn, those days feel like a million years ago, especially when we’re struggling again to get to .500 in the conference.
 
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Your memory is good but your observations are even better. To be fair, the only “coked up” CSUer I recall was the coach, Kevin Mackey, who stretched his 15 minutes of fame as far as he could. BK kind of reinvented himself with DG and KS, and that led to a recruiting resurgence that got us Calbert, Greg and Pat Graham, Reynolds, Bailey, Henderson, Nover . . . Our last really good team. Smart was a transformational player for us, but DG was the closet we ever got to another Ray Lee, who was so good and one of BK’s all time favorites.

Damn, those days feel like a million years ago, especially when we’re struggling again to get to .500 in the conference.
I was thinking this morning....the last 4-5 yrs of RMK's tenure (late 90s), you could tell we were past peak, sliding slowly downhill.... and no longer 'blue blood' material...not coming close to a B1G championship, players leaving, early NCAA tourney exits. Hell even losing 1-2 of our December cupcake tourneys we hosted (Hoosier/IU classics). And yet now....we could consider a season like that to be upward progress. How far our mighty have fallen.
 
Oh yeah, and we can address the B1G tourney and the fact that it's been around now for...what?...almost 25 yrs, and not only have we never won the damn thing, but only seen the championship game ONCE? While having an obvious home court advantage nearly every other year? Seriously our lack of success in the B1G tourney is almost beyond comprehension. Hell even blind squirrels occasionally find a nut.

Edit- did some quick research, and in the last 13 years- we've only made it to the weekend games (semininal) once - 2013 season (where we were predictably bounced by Bucky, as usual). All other seasons in the past 13, we were out by Friday afternoon. Pathetic.
 
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I was thinking this morning....the last 4-5 yrs of RMK's tenure (late 90s), you could tell we were past peak, sliding slowly downhill.... and no longer 'blue blood' material...not coming close to a B1G championship, players leaving, early NCAA tourney exits. Hell even losing 1-2 of our December cupcake tourneys we hosted (Hoosier/IU classics). And yet now....we could consider a season like that to be upward progress. How far our mighty have fallen.
Agree. I realize we caught lightning in 2002, but I never thought BK was building us back up when the end came in 2000. We had some nice players and surely would’ve gotten Sean May, but he and Jared Jeffries would’ve never played together, and I’m not sure we would’ve ever risen up like some thought. In my view, we were very much on the down side of BKs career, at least the IU version. People were worn out with him, and there were all kinds of tensions and issues that dominated the IU AD landscape. It wasn’t a good environment at all, and it wouldn’t have improved had he stayed.
 
Agree. I realize we caught lightning in 2002, but I never thought BK was building us back up when the end came in 2000. We had some nice players and surely would’ve gotten Sean May, but he and Jared Jeffries would’ve never played together, and I’m not sure we would’ve ever risen up like some thought. In my view, we were very much on the down side of BKs career, at least the IU version. People were worn out with him, and there were all kinds of tensions and issues that dominated the IU AD landscape. It wasn’t a good environment at all, and it wouldn’t have improved had he stayed.
cannot argue. You knew as you saw those seasons play out, and when the likes of Collier and Recker jump ship, plus the rumblings/rumors of the issues between Knight and the AD, we weren't going to see years like 1991-1993 again. But the admin within IU has had 2 decades to clean up/pick up and get us back on track, so that we are a least a perennial top 25 program, and they have failed the fans miserably.
 
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I don't get the idea that a Player isn't ready to play or lacks effort. You have a Short Career and so many opportunities. You put effort in in practice and work to the point of exhaustion. The games should be the fun part that you look forward to and circle on the Calendar.

Players can see through a Coach who is incompetent, inconsistent, and a fake Leader with no substance. Once that happens there is no telling how far a Team will Fall.
Seriously - the announcers called it out on the tip-off; Trayce didn’t go up for the tip - he wasn’t ready for it. That’s how ready we were to play
 
cannot argue. You knew as you saw those seasons play out, and when the likes of Collier and Recker jump ship, plus the rumblings/rumors of the issues between Knight and the AD, we weren't going to see years like 1991-1993 again. But the admin within IU has had 2 decades to clean up/pick up and get us back on track, so that we are a least a perennial top 25 program, and they have failed the fans miserably.

Leadership has been the issue since BK got fired.

Clarence Doninger never should’ve been the AD, ever. He was installed to be a buffer between BK and the rest of the AD and the University. He was over his head trying to do an impossible job, and he did it poorly. His qualifications were that he had two degrees from IU, played basketball for the Hoosiers, and was a friend of BK.

When he quit, they gave it to Terry Clapacs, who was a “tenured“ administrator whose qualifications were that he was a long time employee who was deeply involved in the IU financial structure and who had good seats at Memorial Stadium and Assembly Hall. The financial condition of the department wasn’t great, and he tried to address expenses as best he could. But IU was never going to save their way to prosperity.

He gave way to Rick Greenspan, a pretty good guy with experience, but also one who wasn’t exactly known as inclusive or flexible and willing to hear the views of others. When he was overrun by Adam Herbert, he knew they were hiring fertilizer, but he signed on anyway. That didn’t turn out so well for him. He did find a gem in Terry Hoepner, but fate cruelly intervened.

Then we hired Fred Glass, a nice guy with no experience in hiring and managing coaches or sports programs, but he could carry on a conversation with a fire hydrant, and some people were swayed by this. And he hired a guy who could and would take to anyone about anything at any time. Glass loved him. No one else who got to know that coach thought much of him once they got to know him.

And now we have another long serving employee who loves IU but who hasn’t acquired any experience running anyone’s athletic department. And yet he’s running ours.

Success leaves clues. So does failure. It’s a miracle we’ve gone .500 in the conference since BK left.
 
The cultural issues that a few of us have been pointing to are exemplified by your post. Winning cultures are wholly intolerant of poor effort and unsound decision making, and penalize both without exception. The team‘s best player or the last guy on the bench need to live by the highest of standards. Period. Or you don’t play. And if it persists, you don’t stay.
That’s never been a coaching tactic of Miller’s.

As such, players learn that there aren’t ramifications for those infractions, and that they really aren’t infractions at all. Show up not ready to play? No problem, it’s early and playing at that hour is tough. Continually make mental errors? It’s okay. Hard to keep everything straight sometimes. Exert less than maximum effort? Take it easy on yourself. Repeatedly be a liability at the free throw line? Hey, you can’t make ‘em all, so don’t hang your head.

Culture runs laps around scheme. As it is, we just look like we’re running in circles.
If I'm a recruit, the obvious impact of this is I look at how players are developed and I see that no one really seems to get better. They don't get better because the the coach doesn't force them. RMK would bench players. Quinn Buckner got benched for several games his senior year because he wasn't doing what the coach wanted. He was an All-American and 1st round NBA choice. Archie holds no one accountable - ever. I saw enough over three years with Devonte Green. That guy should have rode the bench or been run-off if he didn't stop making stupid decisions. But he played. Archie tries so hard to be their friend that he forgets he's supposed to be developing them.
 
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If I'm a recruit, the obvious impact of this is I look at how players are developed and I see that no one really seems to get better. They don't get better because the the coach doesn't force them. RMK would bench players. Quinn Buckner got benched for several games his senior year because he wasn't doing what the coach wanted. He was an All-American and 1st round NBA choice. Archie holds no one accountable - ever. I saw enough over three years with Devonte Green. That guy should have rode the bench or been run-off if he didn't stop making stupid decisions. But he played. Archie tries so hard to be their friend that he forgets he's supposed to be developing them.
there are reasons our recruiting is falling short. Development is a big part. And now...with the whispers of CAM getting closer to being on the hot seat, well that's not going to help at all either. This summer's transfer market may be his last shot at propping up his program before his IU tenure starts circling the drain.
 
Seriously - the announcers called it out on the tip-off; Trayce didn’t go up for the tip - he wasn’t ready for it. That’s how ready we were to play


Lol....I forgot about that little gem.....what a Fed up team and program this is.
 
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