Archie’s goodbye.

Birnk403

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One man’s teaching moment to a starry-eyed student just out of high school becomes his pitbull-like uncle’s egregious act of bullying, which becomes a college president’s permission to dismiss another man’s 29 years of loyalty for Zero Tolerance infraction. It wasn’t so much that a teacher touched a student to get his attention as it was a media reported assault by another man’s teaching methods in opposition to the restraints of Zero Tolerance. Many other citizens have since been restrained, likewise, in action by newly “woke” society.
It was never about Kent Harvey, as most people understood that BK simply overreached in an inappropriate manner. BK just didn’t think the rules applied to him unless they were his rules. He never learned that others had a say, that other people’s views mattered. He just couldn’t stomach that someone else could have a legitimate viewpoint that he couldn’t overrun. Again, it was about his hubris, and really nothing more.
 
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abraxis

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It was never about Kent Harvey, as most people understood that BK simply overreached in an inappropriate manner. BK just didn’t think the rules applied to him unless they were his rules. He never learned that others had a say, that other people’s views mattered. He just couldn’t stomach that someone else could have a legitimate viewpoint that he couldn’t overrun. Again, it was about his hubris, and really nothing more.
I bet you’re one who thinks Knight really head-butted Sherron Wilkerson on purpose. In my 70 years I’ve never known one man to purposely head-butt another man. It hurts both heads like Hell surely does. Well, there was the professional wrestler, BoBo “Head-butt” Brazil, but he faked it as part of the act.
 

Courtsensetwo

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One man’s teaching moment to a starry-eyed student just out of high school becomes his pitbull-like uncle’s egregious act of bullying, which becomes a college president’s permission to dismiss another man’s 29 years of loyalty for Zero Tolerance infraction. It wasn’t so much that a teacher touched a student to get his attention as it was a media reported assault by another man’s teaching methods in opposition to the restraints of Zero Tolerance. Many other citizens have since been restrained, likewise, in action by newly “woke” society.
Mark Shaw stirred the drink in this situation.
 

Al Bino

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It's easy to hide behind chicken-sh*t when piled so high. "Sanctity" of the voting booth with no personal identification required? I like that one. Is that anything like "sanctity" of the mail-in envelope?

WTF? I am not hiding behind anything.

My personal politics have nothing to do with the discussion or this thread.
 
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Birnk403

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I bet you’re one who thinks Knight really head-butted Sherron Wilkerson on purpose. In my 70 years I’ve never known one man to purposely head-butt another man. It hurts both heads like Hell surely does. Well, there was the professional wrestler, BoBo “Head-butt” Brazil, but he faked it as part of the act.
If you watch the video, it’s obvious BK had to create a narrative to explain what happened in a way that would result in him being blameless. Ding. Accepting responsibility for his actions wasn’t exactly a strength of BK.
 

Courtsensetwo

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I bet you’re one who thinks Knight really head-butted Sherron Wilkerson on purpose. In my 70 years I’ve never known one man to purposely head-butt another man. It hurts both heads like Hell surely does. Well, there was the professional wrestler, BoBo “Head-butt” Brazil, but he faked it as part of the act.

I was always a fan of Knight as our coach but have always been quite objective as well. I always get a kick out of the polar opposite partisan versions of his actions including so many that are simply incorrect. I even heard a former player incorrectly describe what happened in a high profile game incident...and he was on the floor.
 

Ksteph

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I bet you’re one who thinks Knight really head-butted Sherron Wilkerson on purpose. In my 70 years I’ve never known one man to purposely head-butt another man. It hurts both heads like Hell surely does. Well, there was the professional wrestler, BoBo “Head-butt” Brazil, but he faked it as part of the act.
You my be my favorite poster ha. Keep it going. Putting democrats in their place is something I also take great pride in lol. It’s unbelievably amazing how dumb they really are. Can’t think for themselves. Watch news as gospel. Can’t stand up for themselves. Need govt to hold their hand. I’ve got no use for a dem, at least none that I can say on here. You may be wrong on the head butting thing tho. I’ve been on both ends of those and buttor isn’t fazed if done correctly (near top of head, not forehead ha)
 
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abraxis

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WTF? I am not hiding behind anything.

My personal politics have nothing to do with the discussion or this thread.
Easy there, partner. What you read on social media is to always be taken with a grain of salt, impersonally and for entertainment purposes only. It’s not the Encyclopedia Brittanica we’re reading here.
 

abraxis

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I was always a fan of Knight as our coach but have always been quite objective as well. I always get a kick out of the polar opposite partisan versions of his actions including so many that are simply incorrect. I even heard a former player incorrectly describe what happened in a high profile game incident...and he was on the floor.
Witnesses in or on court always tell you what they THINK they saw, whether real or more simply imagined. You’ve heard the old saying, “The eyes play tricks.” That’s why I always look twice before pulling my car out onto a street. The eye tricks have altered many a man’s life.
 

Birnk403

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Witnesses in or on court always tell you what they THINK they saw, whether real or more simply imagined. You’ve heard the old saying, “The eyes play tricks.” That’s why I always look twice before pulling my car out onto a street. The eye tricks have altered many a man’s life.
The eyes certainly play tricks, but those are usually ding from fans who think they know what happened but actually don’t have a clue. I always laugh when they claim to know more than the players who were actually there, especially when they (the fans) weren’t. Again, always worth a good laugh.
 

abraxis

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You my be my favorite poster ha. Keep it going. Putting democrats in their place is something I also take great pride in lol. It’s unbelievably amazing how dumb they really are. Can’t think for themselves. Watch news as gospel. Can’t stand up for themselves. Need govt to hold their hand. I’ve got no use for a dem, at least none that I can say on here. You may be wrong on the head butting thing tho. I’ve been on both ends of those and buttor isn’t fazed if done correctly (near top of head, not forehead ha)
Damn, I’ve always said there was a science to everything, but I never thought about the correct technique of human head-butting as a means to grab undivided attention. Who knew, besides you!

Democrats cater to those who find it easier to think they drew the short end of the straw. Ironically, they abide by the inflammatory words of the ruling elite, the more privileged who every four years have to remind them how oppressed they are because of the evil actions of others. This division they creat and maintain is there for the political Democrat’s personal gain.
 
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Courtsensetwo

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Witnesses in or on court always tell you what they THINK they saw, whether real or more simply imagined. You’ve heard the old saying, “The eyes play tricks.” That’s why I always look twice before pulling my car out onto a street. The eye tricks have altered many a man’s life.
In this case and to be fair, this was not about what the player saw but what he heard (or didn't hear in this case). Lots of reporters mistold the story as well.

Once BK passes the stories will be told and mistold over and over and over. Trash can anyone??
 
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abraxis

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I sometimes wonder how anyone will be remembered, especially now with all the “historical” re-enactments with actors portraying details no one was privy to for acknowledgment as truth.

By “trash can anyone” is this in purposeful reference to the media condemning Knight for supposedly stuffing an obnoxious LSU fan in one on Bourbon Street? IU players said it didn’t happen, but the accusation continued to gather steam and is still being reported as truth today along with anything else the press reported about his attention grabbing headlines.

Look at where our media integrity is today, over 20 years later. Back then, some people thought if something was reported in the paper, it must be true. Those same people still think that way, as they find it easier to expend less energy at the level of critical thinking for themselves. Just tell us what we want to hear, Joe Biden of such charismatic leadership, say his cult-like followers of undocumented, no I.d. required ballots.

Once Knight passes, there will be a national outpouring of comments made, for and against. Journalists and other media types should all pay him past due respect for making their jobs so much easier than say, if Archie Miller had coached here 29 years. We should all then pay Knight respectful homage for his sharing such an entertaining life with us here at Indiana University. He made it fun...fun for everyone, one way or another, right or wrong, as a man thinkith. Unfortunately, there will always be those attention-starved scavengers using his passing to belittle the man, listing his now “woke” transgressions as highlight to their own agenda, in search of personal gain, the fame they’ll never have the same.

Say what you want. You always do, but I’ll say Coach Knight got a raw deal. Those around him didn’t handle the situations well. They still don’t, as we’re seeing today. Bob could have been saved by others. It was his novel personality that we still find so difficult to understand...control of the well-disciplined mind, flawed in actions according to the ever-growing factions of unrest...the blossoming Woke Culture, last seen sewing seeds of destruction for calendars one day crumbled! They wanted him to fail because they were now ready.
 

Courtsensetwo

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I sometimes wonder how anyone will be remembered, especially now with all the “historical” re-enactments with actors portraying details no one was privy to for acknowledgment as truth.

By “trash can anyone” is this in purposeful reference to the media condemning Knight for supposedly stuffing an obnoxious LSU fan in one on Bourbon Street? IU players said it didn’t happen, but the accusation continued to gather steam and is still being reported as truth today along with anything else the press reported about his attention grabbing headlines.

Look at where our media integrity is today, over 20 years later. Back then, some people thought if something was reported in the paper, it must be true. Those same people still think that way, as they find it easier to expend less energy at the level of critical thinking for themselves. Just tell us what we want to hear, Joe Biden of such charismatic leadership, say his cult-like followers of undocumented, no I.d. required ballots.

Once Knight passes, there will be a national outpouring of comments made, for and against. Journalists and other media types should all pay him past due respect for making their jobs so much easier than say, if Archie Miller had coached here 29 years. We should all then pay Knight respectful homage for his sharing such an entertaining life with us here at Indiana University. He made it fun...fun for everyone, one way or another, right or wrong, as a man thinkith. Unfortunately, there will always be those attention-starved scavengers using his passing to belittle the man, listing his now “woke” transgressions as highlight to their own agenda, in search of personal gain, the fame they’ll never have the same.

Say what you want. You always do, but I’ll say Coach Knight got a raw deal. Those around him didn’t handle the situations well. They still don’t, as we’re seeing today. Bob could have been saved by others. It was his novel personality that we still find so difficult to understand...control of the well-disciplined mind, flawed in actions according to the ever-growing factions of unrest...the blossoming Woke Culture, last seen sewing seeds of destruction for calendars one day crumbled! They wanted him to fail because they were now ready.
Some intriguing thoughts here. I will respond when I have more time tomorrow
 

PhyloeBedoe

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You my be my favorite poster ha. Keep it going. Putting democrats in their place is something I also take great pride in lol. It’s unbelievably amazing how dumb they really are. Can’t think for themselves. Watch news as gospel. Can’t stand up for themselves. Need govt to hold their hand. I’ve got no use for a dem, at least none that I can say on here. You may be wrong on the head butting thing tho. I’ve been on both ends of those and buttor isn’t fazed if done correctly (near top of head, not forehead ha)

Let me assure you, abraxis isn’t putting any Dems / liberals in their places with his cute little diatribes. In fact, I’m enjoying all the many tantrums. It’s the height of entertainment. 👍
 

Birnk403

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Nov 17, 2019
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I sometimes wonder how anyone will be remembered, especially now with all the “historical” re-enactments with actors portraying details no one was privy to for acknowledgment as truth.

By “trash can anyone” is this in purposeful reference to the media condemning Knight for supposedly stuffing an obnoxious LSU fan in one on Bourbon Street? IU players said it didn’t happen, but the accusation continued to gather steam and is still being reported as truth today along with anything else the press reported about his attention grabbing headlines.

Look at where our media integrity is today, over 20 years later. Back then, some people thought if something was reported in the paper, it must be true. Those same people still think that way, as they find it easier to expend less energy at the level of critical thinking for themselves. Just tell us what we want to hear, Joe Biden of such charismatic leadership, say his cult-like followers of undocumented, no I.d. required ballots.

Once Knight passes, there will be a national outpouring of comments made, for and against. Journalists and other media types should all pay him past due respect for making their jobs so much easier than say, if Archie Miller had coached here 29 years. We should all then pay Knight respectful homage for his sharing such an entertaining life with us here at Indiana University. He made it fun...fun for everyone, one way or another, right or wrong, as a man thinkith. Unfortunately, there will always be those attention-starved scavengers using his passing to belittle the man, listing his now “woke” transgressions as highlight to their own agenda, in search of personal gain, the fame they’ll never have the same.

Say what you want. You always do, but I’ll say Coach Knight got a raw deal. Those around him didn’t handle the situations well. They still don’t, as we’re seeing today. Bob could have been saved by others. It was his novel personality that we still find so difficult to understand...control of the well-disciplined mind, flawed in actions according to the ever-growing factions of unrest...the blossoming Woke Culture, last seen sewing seeds of destruction for calendars one day crumbled! They wanted him to fail because they were now ready.
You’ve shown how easily people get stories wrong. The players never said the “LSU fan in the trash can” incident didn’t happen, since none of them were there. And IU fans know the incident, wherein BK pushed aside a drunken Tiger fan yelling “Tiger Bait” a bit too loudly and repetitively, occurred in Philadelphia, not New Orleans.

BK didn’t need others to save him. He could’ve easily saved himself if his ego and hubris didn’t override his common sense.
 
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My hatred for Myles Brand, whose action gave us IU basketball today, is in direct proportion to my love for Coach Knight, who gave us IU basketball, as we once knew of it. Bob Knight’s leadership added 29 years of recreational joy to my life as an IU fan. Myles Brand’s “leadership” all but ruined it for me, taking with it the wind from my sail.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said. I wanted to jump into this thread the other day but just didn’t have the energy anymore. I’m so tired of fighting this battle with these know-nothing “fans” who trash RMK at the drop of a hat.
 
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abraxis

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Let me assure you, abraxis isn’t putting any Dems / liberals in their places with his cute little diatribes. In fact, I’m enjoying all the many tantrums. It’s the height of entertainment. 👍
Tantrums, when cute, flatten the curve of bitterness spewed.
 

SouthBendJim

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Dec 19, 2004
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I personally attended a Trump rally at the Indiana State Fair Coliseum. Bob Knight was Trump’s featured guest speaker in support of his policy's. It gave IU fans who were liberal Democrat’s one more reason (like they needed one!) to hate our former, now HOF, coach.

Bob Knight was fired by a flaming college educator from the liberal northwest coast, who was out of touch with simple Midwest values like a love for the game of basketball that unites us. Brand used his power to silence another man for his own personal gain. Brand never cared for IU basketball fans, it was all about using the newly recharged liberal way of thinking that the disciplinarians of society who espoused traditional values needed to be muzzled. What was once seen as positive, strict discipline for the student became negative bullying, hurtful to the feelings of the student, requiring “safe place” with hot chocolate and sugar coated cookies for them to heal their fractured egos free of fear from “big meanie”. Ironically, it was Myles Brand, hiding behind his liberal shield of Indiana University who bullied the conservative Midwestern boy from Orville, OH. Today, look where IU basketball fans are as a result of this liberal bullying. Conjure up in your mind the face of Maxine Walters yelling at her liberal supporters, “Its time to get into their faces!” Now, look at where society is compared to where it was. Is Myles Brand considered a good hire for IU? Was Bob Knight’s tenure good for us? Is it good for us now, since Brand and his merry band of “yes men” forced his liberal west coast values down upon us 20 years ago?
Perfectly said. It was the start of a downward spiral of our universities into a liberal morass of mindless graduates, with meaningless degrees, who will never contribute anything to this country's greatness.

Brand was the epitome of liberalism and all it's failures. Just another power-hungry blowhard using his position to force his ideas onto an unwilling population.
 

Birnk403

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Thank you for saying what needs to be said. I wanted to jump into this thread the other day but just didn’t have the energy anymore. I’m so tired of fighting this battle with these know-nothing “fans” who trash RMK at the drop of a hat.
If you knew more, you wouldn’t have to defend yourself against the inevitable charges that you’re a know nothing.
 

Courtsensetwo

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I sometimes wonder how anyone will be remembered, especially now with all the “historical” re-enactments with actors portraying details no one was privy to for acknowledgment as truth.

By “trash can anyone” is this in purposeful reference to the media condemning Knight for supposedly stuffing an obnoxious LSU fan in one on Bourbon Street? IU players said it didn’t happen, but the accusation continued to gather steam and is still being reported as truth today along with anything else the press reported about his attention grabbing headlines.

Look at where our media integrity is today, over 20 years later. Back then, some people thought if something was reported in the paper, it must be true. Those same people still think that way, as they find it easier to expend less energy at the level of critical thinking for themselves. Just tell us what we want to hear, Joe Biden of such charismatic leadership, say his cult-like followers of undocumented, no I.d. required ballots.

Once Knight passes, there will be a national outpouring of comments made, for and against. Journalists and other media types should all pay him past due respect for making their jobs so much easier than say, if Archie Miller had coached here 29 years. We should all then pay Knight respectful homage for his sharing such an entertaining life with us here at Indiana University. He made it fun...fun for everyone, one way or another, right or wrong, as a man thinkith. Unfortunately, there will always be those attention-starved scavengers using his passing to belittle the man, listing his now “woke” transgressions as highlight to their own agenda, in search of personal gain, the fame they’ll never have the same.

Say what you want. You always do, but I’ll say Coach Knight got a raw deal. Those around him didn’t handle the situations well. They still don’t, as we’re seeing today. Bob could have been saved by others. It was his novel personality that we still find so difficult to understand...control of the well-disciplined mind, flawed in actions according to the ever-growing factions of unrest...the blossoming Woke Culture, last seen sewing seeds of destruction for calendars one day crumbled! They wanted him to fail because they were now ready.
Ok Sorry for the delay. Busy evening.

Few things to respond to but will tackle the incident stuff first.

Yes, my inclusion of "trash can" was intentional because it is an example of a legendary story that has been mis reported more than not. Much of that is because of the way "wire" news distribution worked/s. Outlets pick up stories and republish/report them as fact without any due diligence regarding content.

"BK stuffs LSU fan in a trash can for yelling Tiger bait" Well, like so many mis reported BK stories this is only partially true. I was not present in NJ when this happened but I can tell you from first hand reports that when Bob, Nancy, and a couple others cut through the team motel lounge a Tiger fan reportedly congratulated the group on their semi final W over LSU. BK responds with I guess we weren't Tiger Bait after all referring to the LSU chants towrd the team at the Spectrum and motel where several of the LSU fans were staying as well. The LSU fan responds with an explative. BK circles back and confronts the fan who repeats it. BK shoves the dude into a wall prompting a trash can to fall over. Now compare that to the story and it neatly summarizes how stories are fabricated for headlines. Now I am sure that some motel employee runs in see the fan and the trash can on the floor and tell some reporter of the "stuffing".

Another day I will correct the "BK pulls team off floor vs Soviets" story that I actually was present for and close enough to witness what actually transpired.

How will BK be remembered?

BK was a polarizing figure and that remains to this day to some degree. His post mortem biographies will be much the same with detractors (even attackers) and supporters (even excusers). We have always seen that.

As you note, some thinga have changed that will indeed affect the "remembrance".

1. BK lost a lot of supporters due to his treatment of IU and IU fans between 2000 and 2019. Shunning major player reunions and refusing to come back. The perps like Brand were long gone and the fans were left. Eventually he started selling tickets to fans to listen to stories which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

2. Culture. Today's "woke" culture which is essentially "political correctness" on steroids will paint a lot of things BK did in a light that is difficult to defend. In some cases supporters will be correct to call them as being "taken out of context". "The whip" will be an oft-pointed to event.

3. Time heals. Indeed some of the hatred that opposing fans had for BK (mostly because he beat them) will have softened. We already see that with PU grads who due to both time and GK's outreach see BK as less the horrid monster they despised and threw things at and now more of a "pair of legends" with GK. This is in no small part self-serving on PU grad's part.

4. Respect for the dearly departed. Less true today in our maga vs tide pod society but many will still be more respectful after he passes.

Did BK get "a raw deal" as you say?

IMO...sure, but he owns a big piece of that. BK and his pomposity would'nt allow another to control or even manage his Kingdom.

For every Mark Shaw and Murray Sperber there will be a Bob Hammel.

...and plenty of stories that are partially true.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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If you watch the video, it’s obvious BK had to create a narrative to explain what happened in a way that would result in him being blameless. Ding. Accepting responsibility for his actions wasn’t exactly a strength of BK.

I largely agree with what you're saying about RMK. It's rare for him to practice the same kind of accountability for himself that he demanded from his players. And usually when he did, he didn't have much choice.

This is probably his biggest character flaw. A lot of people don't get past his temper, profanity, and outbursts and all that. But those are actually personality traits. Being accountable for one's mistakes and transgressions is more about character.

Knight also has very admirable aspects of his character, of course. Anybody who is well-informed on him and objective can easily recognize both.

That said, I personally don't think he head-butted Sherron Wilkerson on purpose. I've seen people head-butt others on purpose, and that's not what it looks like. I do think he meant to get right in Sherron's face to scream at him. But I don't think the physical contact was intentional.

That's my guess. But only one person knows the actual truth about whether or not it was intentional.
 

abraxis

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Ok Sorry for the delay. Busy evening.

Few things to respond to but will tackle the incident stuff first.

Yes, my inclusion of "trash can" was intentional because it is an example of a legendary story that has been mis reported more than not. Much of that is because of the way "wire" news distribution worked/s. Outlets pick up stories and republish/report them as fact without any due diligence regarding content.

"BK stuffs LSU fan in a trash can for yelling Tiger bait" Well, like so many mis reported BK stories this is only partially true. I was not present in NJ when this happened but I can tell you from first hand reports that when Bob, Nancy, and a couple others cut through the team motel lounge a Tiger fan reportedly congratulated the group on their semi final W over LSU. BK responds with I guess we weren't Tiger Bait after all referring to the LSU chants towrd the team at the Spectrum and motel where several of the LSU fans were staying as well. The LSU fan responds with an explative. BK circles back and confronts the fan who repeats it. BK shoves the dude into a wall prompting a trash can to fall over. Now compare that to the story and it neatly summarizes how stories are fabricated for headlines. Now I am sure that some motel employee runs in see the fan and the trash can on the floor and tell some reporter of the "stuffing".

Another day I will correct the "BK pulls team off floor vs Soviets" story that I actually was present for and close enough to witness what actually transpired.

How will BK be remembered?

BK was a polarizing figure and that remains to this day to some degree. His post mortem biographies will be much the same with detractors (even attackers) and supporters (even excusers). We have always seen that.

As you note, some thinga have changed that will indeed affect the "remembrance".

1. BK lost a lot of supporters due to his treatment of IU and IU fans between 2000 and 2019. Shunning major player reunions and refusing to come back. The perps like Brand were long gone and the fans were left. Eventually he started selling tickets to fans to listen to stories which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

2. Culture. Today's "woke" culture which is essentially "political correctness" on steroids will paint a lot of things BK did in a light that is difficult to defend. In some cases supporters will be correct to call them as being "taken out of context". "The whip" will be an oft-pointed to event.

3. Time heals. Indeed some of the hatred that opposing fans had for BK (mostly because he beat them) will have softened. We already see that with PU grads who due to both time and GK's outreach see BK as less the horrid monster they despised and threw things at and now more of a "pair of legends" with GK. This is in no small part self-serving on PU grad's part.

4. Respect for the dearly departed. Less true today in our maga vs tide pod society but many will still be more respectful after he passes.

Did BK get "a raw deal" as you say?

IMO...sure, but he owns a big piece of that. BK and his pomposity would'nt allow another to control or even manage his Kingdom.

For every Mark Shaw and Murray Sperber there will be a Bob Hammel.

...and plenty of stories that are partially true.
Thank you for taking the time to share these interesting thoughts. I always have to keep reminding myself of the different reality the majority of IU fans today have, not having followed IU basketball during these glory years, when to me, as an IU junior student Bob's first year, it seems like only a day or two before yesterday. Bob Knight's personality, love him or hate him, made college basketball fun for everyone. That's why opposing arena's around the country sold out when "Bob Knight" was coming to town. Younger fans today don't seem to appreciate hearing the stories of "BK Theater" like the old timers do. They can't seem to get past the arrogant bully persona bestowed upon him by his detractors in "woke-ness".

I remember the Russian exhibition game well. I was there for the game with some of my older relatives who drove down from Ft. Wayne that morning. It was one of the rare times they saw IU live in AH and they were so excited for the event. We were all disappointed in the abrupt ending before halftime. It soured the day, I must say.

Let history never forget....(Zack Ostermann news article for 20th anniversary)

Harvey, speaking to the Indiana Daily Student in September 2000: “My intentions were to say, ‘Hi, Mr. Knight.’ It came out wrong. I said ‘Knight.’ The whole incident happened because I forgot to say ‘mister.’”

The story has been told different ways in the years since. What’s agreed upon is that Harvey greeted Knight, then Knight stopped Harvey to chastise him for a perceived lack of respect.

From there, stories diverged. Harvey’s brother said Knight grabbed Kent Harvey forcefully by his arm and loudly cursed, demanding more respect. Speaking in his defense during a news conference that Friday, Knight described the episode differently.

Knight, in a Sept. 9, 2000, IndyStar article: "I looked at him and said, ‘Son, my name isn’t Knight for you. It’s Mr. Knight or coach Knight.'"

Both Knight and assistant coach Mike Davis, who reportedly witnessed the incident, disputed Harvey’s account of the incident, particularly with regard to the nature of physical contact between the pair. In that same news conference, Davis called Harvey’s story “the biggest lie I ever heard in my life.”


Knight, in a Sept. 9, 2000, IndyStar article: “I would have to be an absolute moron, with the things that have been laid down on me, to grab a kid in public and curse a kid in public. That is absolutely, totally untrue.”

The story spread, fueled in part by Mark Shaw, a one-time Bloomington radio host and Knight critic. Shaw was also Harvey’s stepfather.

He contacted IndyStar the next day to report the incident.


Mark Shaw, Terry Clapacs, Kent Harvey, Miles Brand, Ron Felling, Murray Sperber...all names that will remain in infamy within the annals of IU basketball.
 

PhyloeBedoe

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I largely agree with what you're saying about RMK. It's rare for him to practice the same kind of accountability for himself that he demanded from his players. And usually when he did, he didn't have much choice.

This is probably his biggest character flaw. A lot of people don't get past his temper, profanity, and outbursts and all that. But those are actually personality traits. Being accountable for one's mistakes and transgressions is more about character.

Knight also has very admirable aspects of his character, of course. Anybody who is well-informed on him and objective can easily recognize both.

That said, I personally don't think he head-butted Sherron Wilkerson on purpose. I've seen people head-butt others on purpose, and that's not what it looks like. I do think he meant to get right in Sherron's face to scream at him. But I don't think the physical contact was intentional.

That's my guess. But only one person knows the actual truth about whether or not it was intentional.

First of all, someone earlier stated headbutts dont actually exist. Thats a strange take, because they absolutely do exist, and Ive seen them done out in the wild.

Knowing what a headbutt is, that wasnt a headbutt. But i do think it was on purpose, and he likely meant to make some kind of contact to get Sherron Wilkersons attention.
So was it a headbutt? Technically no.
Was the contact on purpose? Yes.
Did he mean to hurt him? Knowing BK, he wouldnt care if he did or didnt hurt him, so long as he got his attention.

(I think its hilarious that we are debating this yet again all these years later. But aptly so, because it is a small microcosm of the overall debate surrounding BK. It seems so many show their overall take on BK by the lens that they see the Wilkerson headbutt case. )
 
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Birnk403

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Thank you for taking the time to share these interesting thoughts. I always have to keep reminding myself of the different reality the majority of IU fans today have, not having followed IU basketball during these glory years, when to me, as an IU junior student Bob's first year, it seems like only a day or two before yesterday. Bob Knight's personality, love him or hate him, made college basketball fun for everyone. That's why opposing arena's around the country sold out when "Bob Knight" was coming to town. Younger fans today don't seem to appreciate hearing the stories of "BK Theater" like the old timers do. They can't seem to get past the arrogant bully persona bestowed upon him by his detractors in "woke-ness".

I remember the Russian exhibition game well. I was there for the game with some of my older relatives who drove down from Ft. Wayne that morning. It was one of the rare times they saw IU live in AH and they were so excited for the event. We were all disappointed in the abrupt ending before halftime. It soured the day, I must say.

Let history never forget....(Zack Ostermann news article for 20th anniversary)

Harvey, speaking to the Indiana Daily Student in September 2000: “My intentions were to say, ‘Hi, Mr. Knight.’ It came out wrong. I said ‘Knight.’ The whole incident happened because I forgot to say ‘mister.’”

The story has been told different ways in the years since. What’s agreed upon is that Harvey greeted Knight, then Knight stopped Harvey to chastise him for a perceived lack of respect.

From there, stories diverged. Harvey’s brother said Knight grabbed Kent Harvey forcefully by his arm and loudly cursed, demanding more respect. Speaking in his defense during a news conference that Friday, Knight described the episode differently.

Knight, in a Sept. 9, 2000, IndyStar article: "I looked at him and said, ‘Son, my name isn’t Knight for you. It’s Mr. Knight or coach Knight.'"

Both Knight and assistant coach Mike Davis, who reportedly witnessed the incident, disputed Harvey’s account of the incident, particularly with regard to the nature of physical contact between the pair. In that same news conference, Davis called Harvey’s story “the biggest lie I ever heard in my life.”


Knight, in a Sept. 9, 2000, IndyStar article: “I would have to be an absolute moron, with the things that have been laid down on me, to grab a kid in public and curse a kid in public. That is absolutely, totally untrue.”

The story spread, fueled in part by Mark Shaw, a one-time Bloomington radio host and Knight critic. Shaw was also Harvey’s stepfather.

He contacted IndyStar the next day to report the incident.


Mark Shaw, Terry Clapacs, Kent Harvey, Miles Brand, Ron Felling, Murray Sperber...all names that will remain in infamy within the annals of IU basketball.
I was able to find a summary of events with BK and the LSU fan written in a strikingly similar style, including text repeated essentially verbatim, from a March 30, 1981 Bloomington Herald-Telephone article. What an incredible, if oft-seen, coincidence. Lol. Good thing there aren’t professors grading papers here, or the subject of plagiarism might arise.
 

abraxis

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That's my guess. But only one person knows the actual truth about whether or not it was intentional.
Let's just say we never saw a bruise or lump on Sherron's forehead, so even if he did head-butt him, it wasn't a big deal. I think Bob intended to get into his face and instinctively leaned forward as Wilkerson instinctively retracted his face. It comes naturally as the "flight or fight" response.

Likewise, Knight kicked his son's chair, not his son. The press reported it as kicking his son because it made for a more reactionary story, stories which garner attention for a journalist and the news outlet paying him. Exaggerated reporting to fit the narrative is what leads me to feel this "raw deal" that Knight got from those wishing to see the mighty fall. It's human nature to want to put another man down...it taps into our "survival of the fittest" mode of evolutionary linkage, something that can't be denied.
 

Birnk403

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Let's just say we never saw a bruise or lump on Sherron's forehead, so even if he did head-butt him, it wasn't a big deal. I think Bob intended to get into his face and instinctively leaned forward as Wilkerson instinctively retracted his face. It comes naturally as the "flight or fight" response.

Likewise, Knight kicked his son's chair, not his son. The press reported it as kicking his son because it made for a more reactionary story, stories which garner attention for a journalist and the news outlet paying him. Exaggerated reporting to fit the narrative is what leads me to feel this "raw deal" that Knight got from those wishing to see the mighty fall. It's human nature to want to put another man down...it taps into our "survival of the fittest" mode of evolutionary linkage, something that can't be denied.
A question: In your view, did BK ever, without being able to blame it on anyone else, make a mistake where he simply didn’t do the right thing or otherwise crossed the line from acceptable behavior to bad? Ever. Was he wrong when he threw the temper tantrum and kicked Pat’s chair, or lost control and head butted SW?
 

abraxis

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I was able to find a summary of events with BK and the LSU fan written in a strikingly similar style, including text repeated essentially verbatim, from a March 30, 1981 Bloomington Herald-Telephone article. What an incredible, if oft-seen, coincidence. Lol. Good thing there aren’t professors grading papers here, or the subject of plagiarism might arise.
There are very few original thoughts left. Words are restructured to disguise, knowingly or unknowingly, conveyance of the same thought. People plagiarize thoughts all the time. They just restructure someone else's words they've read and the order in which these thoughts were presented. It's not hard to do, but harder than verbatim.

Music with its song is the same way.
 

Birnk403

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There are very few original thoughts left. Words are restructured to disguise, knowingly or unknowingly, conveyance of the same thought. People plagiarize thoughts all the time. They just restructure someone else's words they've read and the order in which these thoughts were presented. It's not hard to do, but harder than verbatim.

Music with its song is the same way.
Or they delay a response because they’re not terribly familiar with the specifics of an event, google it to get a detailed account, and then attempt to rewrite it. That’s what obviously happened here, since a number of words and phrases were used verbatim. Pretty funny, though it’s not that poster’s first time. Very likely said poster was in middle school when the actual event occurred.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Or they delay a response because they’re not terribly familiar with the specifics of an event, google it to get a detailed account, and then attempt to rewrite it. That’s what obviously happened here, since a number of words and phrases were used verbatim. Pretty funny, though it’s not that poster’s first time. Very likely said poster was in middle school when the actual event occurred.
This is low brow even by your standards.

I stated I was not in NJ when this happened, I was a freshman at IU. So obviously my accounting is made up or first hand reports and quotes from a number of sources. I was simply correcting the prevailing version of the trash can.

Oh, and i attended a Mother's Day cookout last evening.

Sheesh.
 

Courtsensetwo

Hall of Famer
Oct 16, 2004
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Thank you for taking the time to share these interesting thoughts. I always have to keep reminding myself of the different reality the majority of IU fans today have, not having followed IU basketball during these glory years, when to me, as an IU junior student Bob's first year, it seems like only a day or two before yesterday. Bob Knight's personality, love him or hate him, made college basketball fun for everyone. That's why opposing arena's around the country sold out when "Bob Knight" was coming to town. Younger fans today don't seem to appreciate hearing the stories of "BK Theater" like the old timers do. They can't seem to get past the arrogant bully persona bestowed upon him by his detractors in "woke-ness".

I remember the Russian exhibition game well. I was there for the game with some of my older relatives who drove down from Ft. Wayne that morning. It was one of the rare times they saw IU live in AH and they were so excited for the event. We were all disappointed in the abrupt ending before halftime. It soured the day, I must say.

Let history never forget....(Zack Ostermann news article for 20th anniversary)

Harvey, speaking to the Indiana Daily Student in September 2000: “My intentions were to say, ‘Hi, Mr. Knight.’ It came out wrong. I said ‘Knight.’ The whole incident happened because I forgot to say ‘mister.’”

The story has been told different ways in the years since. What’s agreed upon is that Harvey greeted Knight, then Knight stopped Harvey to chastise him for a perceived lack of respect.

From there, stories diverged. Harvey’s brother said Knight grabbed Kent Harvey forcefully by his arm and loudly cursed, demanding more respect. Speaking in his defense during a news conference that Friday, Knight described the episode differently.

Knight, in a Sept. 9, 2000, IndyStar article: "I looked at him and said, ‘Son, my name isn’t Knight for you. It’s Mr. Knight or coach Knight.'"

Both Knight and assistant coach Mike Davis, who reportedly witnessed the incident, disputed Harvey’s account of the incident, particularly with regard to the nature of physical contact between the pair. In that same news conference, Davis called Harvey’s story “the biggest lie I ever heard in my life.”


Knight, in a Sept. 9, 2000, IndyStar article: “I would have to be an absolute moron, with the things that have been laid down on me, to grab a kid in public and curse a kid in public. That is absolutely, totally untrue.”

The story spread, fueled in part by Mark Shaw, a one-time Bloomington radio host and Knight critic. Shaw was also Harvey’s stepfather.

He contacted IndyStar the next day to report the incident.


Mark Shaw, Terry Clapacs, Kent Harvey, Miles Brand, Ron Felling, Murray Sperber...all names that will remain in infamy within the annals of IU basketball.
No doubt that BK was the most well-known and discussed/debated figure in the game for a lot of years. I don't believe anything attributed to Harvey as long as Shaw was involved.

The soviet game was a disappointment for sure. I believe the DQ and subsequent forfeit came early in the second half...IU was getting their asses kicked by a superior Soviet squad.
 

Birnk403

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This is low brow even by your standards.

I stated I was not in NJ when this happened, I was a freshman at IU. So obviously my accounting is made up or first hand reports and quotes from a number of sources. I was simply correcting the prevailing version of the trash can.

Oh, and i attended a Mother's Day cookout last evening.

Sheesh.
I was simply commenting on the astonishingly similar accounts, right down to the words and phrases used. What an incredible coincidence.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Oct 16, 2004
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I was simply commenting on the astonishingly similar accounts, right down to the words and phrases used. What an incredible coincidence.
The first hand accounts are the first hand accounts. I corrected the prevailing versionof the story. But I am sure you were there ordy so by all means...

Desperatly grasping at scraps in order to troll me in a conversation you are not a part of is not a good look. find someone else...please.

2,147
 

Courtsensetwo

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Oct 16, 2004
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Let's just say we never saw a bruise or lump on Sherron's forehead, so even if he did head-butt him, it wasn't a big deal. I think Bob intended to get into his face and instinctively leaned forward as Wilkerson instinctively retracted his face. It comes naturally as the "flight or fight" response.

Likewise, Knight kicked his son's chair, not his son. The press reported it as kicking his son because it made for a more reactionary story, stories which garner attention for a journalist and the news outlet paying him. Exaggerated reporting to fit the narrative is what leads me to feel this "raw deal" that Knight got from those wishing to see the mighty fall. It's human nature to want to put another man down...it taps into our "survival of the fittest" mode of evolutionary linkage, something that can't be denied.
Oh, Bob headbutted SW, that is not open to debate. The question is whether it was intentional or he just lost his shit and went wildly into his face. I believe the latter, but that is just my belief. SW's response with the rolling eyes was awesome.

And yes, he kicked Pat's chair...yet another story told incorrectly. But regardless...he still lost his shit. By BK standards that was nutt'n.
 
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Oh, Bob headbutted SW, that is not open to debate. The question is whether it was intentional or he just lost his shit and went wildly into his face. I believe the latter, but that is just my belief. SW's response with the rolling eyes was awesome.

And yes, he kicked Pat's chair...yet another story told incorrectly. But regardless...he still lost his shit. By BK standards that was nutt'n.
Ridiculous that you would say this. There was no headbutt and the contact that did occur was accidental. He lost his balance when he crouched down in front of Wilkerson. Clear as day.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Ridiculous that you would say this. There was no headbutt and the contact that did occur was accidental. He lost his balance when he crouched down in front of Wilkerson. Clear as day.
What in my post is "ridiculous"?

Contact = headbutt.

You fall on the side of unintentional

I fall on the side of only BK knows for sure.