I'm not "just" messing with you. I truly dislike the socially constipated. And, dude you have a redwood sized tree up your ass.
Anyone?
- Thread starter TheOriginalHappyGoat
- Start date
I'm not "just" messing with you. I truly dislike the socially constipated. And, dude you have a redwood sized tree up your ass.
I'm socially constipated because i sometimes vote for republicans? That kind of logic can't be argued. Can you connect the dots for me?
Republicans have convinced many Americans that their policies are good for the country, despite the fact that the entire history of the 20th and so far 21st century proves that their policies are actually destructive. I'm not sure if that makes Republican voters "socially" constipated, but it makes them something.
I'm not sure I agree with what your facts show (I guess it depends on which "facts" we look at), but I can agree that it makes us all something.
Generally speaking, Republicans want the government to spend less money. They ESPECIALLY want the government to spend less money when the economy is weak (and thus tax revenues lower). However, all of modern Western history shows us that government spending - especially deficit spending during economic downturns - actually stimulates the economy and helps speed recovery. Every example of economic recession shows that aggressive government spending helps and austerity policies hurt. Every. Single. Example. Without exception. It's not even debatable. It's Econ 101.
And yet, the Repubs have convinced a sizable chunk of the country that sovereign debt is somehow so damaging to the country that it's better for the government to sit back and let recessions happen.
Sovereign debt is not bad. It's not like personal debt, because countries are not like people. The main difference, of course, is that countries don't retire and eventually die. But whatever. The economic explanation isn't my point. My point is we have all of modern history to prove that the small government folks are wrong and the pro-public spending folks are right. And yet so many Americans (and others, especially Brits and Australians) have been duped to believe exactly the opposite of what are actually incontrovertible facts.
The best way to stimulate the economy is, and always has been, war. I don't like war, even if it stimulates the economy. Point is, what stimulates the economy isn't always the right answer.
You do not believe what you write. My guess is a couple too many rum and cokes tonight, (or whatever your choice of beverage might be)
Deficit spending hurts no one. It gives benefits to people. And it works to stimulate the economy. There is no reasonable definition of "wrong" that includes that.
Of course war is bad. Spending isn't war.
18 trillion in debt is bad. I don't profess to know a damn thing about economics, but I don't think going that far in the hole is "right."
No, it's really not. 18 trillion is meaningless. In fact, so long as interest rates are lower than inflation (which they were for a couple of years when we SHOULD have been borrowing a shit ton of money), our debt in real dollars actually goes down just by sitting there.
The thing you have to remember about sovereign debt is you pay it back by borrowing more money. From a certain very real point of view, you never pay it back. You just move it around. In the process, you take that borrowed money and inject it directly into the economy.
Think of it like this:
1. Government borrows $10 dollars.
2. Government spends it, which stimulates $10 more in economic growth.
3. Government is now in debt $10, but the $10 is out in the economy and has been turned into $20.
This is a net positive. The government ledger shows red, yes, but the overall economy - and governments should be concerned with the overall ledger of the entire country, not just the ledger of the government - has gained money.
That's why spending is good. And why debt is good.
We live in an amazing world in the West. And that amazing world only exists because Western governments borrowed money and spent it.
People vote Dem until they actually achieve something in life, look at their taxes and start realizing that they now need to make over $2 just to bring $1 home. After they get there, all the rest of this babble gets thrown out the window.
Fortunately for dems there are a lot of people that spend way too much time on places like peegs otf, debating ideas with others, rather than actually using their energy to create their own success. So there is a never ending supply of gullible people that will buy the argument that the government will solve their problems, and it's only mean, old, greedy republicans standing in their way.
More bewbs please.
Fortunately for dems there are a lot of people that spend way too much time on places like peegs otf, debating ideas with others, rather than actually using their energy to create their own success. So there is a never ending supply of gullible people that will buy the argument that the government will solve their problems, and it's only mean, old, greedy republicans standing in their way.
More bewbs please.
For the record, Goat is posting facts and very well-backed up info, and all he is getting in return is opinion. Back your opinions up, or at the very least, post boobage.
You have a little political capital here, but not nearly enough to get away with this shit. So...
You have a little political capital here, but not nearly enough to get away with this shit. So...
I'm just speaking from both my personal experience and from a lot of professional colleagues that I've known since college.
I have friends that were the most die hard liberals in their college years and twenties, that ended up voting for Romney in 2012.
I think you are a really smart guy, and I agree with a lot of what you post. However, I also have years (15 actually) of working in the bowels of the federal bureaucracy....and that experience has left me very tarnished in what is actually achievable from that level....and I've also learned what it's really about.
Last edited:
He's posting political and economic theory. The kind of stuff that is being and has been debated for centuries. If he can prove that the borrowed $10 put into the economy turns into $20 I'll start listening.
That means nothing, since Obama isn't a true liberal.
But anecdotal evidence means nothing as a general rule, anyway. There are plenty of successful liberals.
However, it's true that a lot of rich people vote Republican simply because they think Republican policies are better for their bottom line. Pure selfishness, but there it is.
I can prove it. It's called Western history. We started spending money and built the greatest economy the world has ever seen. After WWII, Europe followed suit.
Meanwhile, after the recent recession, many countries in Europe (and even the US to a lesser extent with sequestration) toyed with austerity, and it has prolonged the recession and hurt the economy.
It's simple history. Ever time deficit spending has been tried, we've had an economic boom. Every time austerity has been tried, we've had stagnation. It doesn't take a genius to connect those dots.
Seriously. Name one time - just one time - that a Western economy slashed spending and enjoyed an economic boom as a result. Just one.
Can you explain Greece, Spain and Italy? What happened to those western economies?
My bad, I should have let this thread die.
Last edited:
If you study Greece's current problems, I think you'd realize you made a point for both Goat and I.
I don't have a point to make either way in this thread, but wanted to give everyone an "attaboy" for following proper A-OTF posting policy...
Its making this thread entertaining.
Oh, since I'm here - I remain committed to the Indian.
Carry on....
Its making this thread entertaining.
Oh, since I'm here - I remain committed to the Indian.
Carry on....
Care to tell me what point I'm making? That western countries who borrow too much money, spend too much money on government pensions, and have corrupt politicians can't tax enough to cover the deficit? I'm interested in reading your salient points. Maybe you could carry your end of the conversation rather than relying on Goat.
This post is why an "Unlike" button is absolutely required. We have the technology ..........
My, what a cunty comment that was, Rob.
Here's a brief non-Fox News bullshit answer, like the one you supplied:
Greece in the years leading up to the economic collapse of 2008 was experiencing a huge boom in construction. Greek banks fueled this boom by lending cash left and right. Their collateral for these loans, like most banks in the world, was sub prime mortgage debts in the good ol USA. Like here, the sub-prime bubble exploded, rather than burst, and Greece's banks were screwed. The Greek Government, like ours, thought their banks too big to fail, and bailed them out. Unlike our economy, they have a tiny economy and could bail out the banks only by borrowing the money.
The greek government and banks basically made a bad bet: they gambled that the crisis would be relatively short. It wasn't and Greece's loaners started demanding payments. Greece's problem wasn't pensions, its problem was its decades long culture of tax evasion by corporations and the wealthy (sound familiar, Foos?). It simply could not generate the revenue to pay back its debts, so instead of dealing with the wealthy parasites from the country's collective nutsack, it went after those pensions and programs because the government was bought and paid for by the wealthy. Much like our system of government.
The stupid actions of the Greek government gave way to shattered economy, huge tax increases on the middle class and poor, caused massive lay-offs and eventually lead to the removal of that government by the people.
You have obviously have been spoon fed the oligarchy approved version by Fox that put the blame squarely on the entitlement programs.
You are the perfect Fox News viewer, you believe everything they say AND vote against your own best interests. Good work!
But I thought borrowing money was good for the economy. How could it have gone wrong? It went wrong because of several factors and if you don't believe government pensions, ghost payroll, and other soft jobs was a major player, you're as ill informed as you are snarky. Greece's economy is small compared to the U.S. Economy, but so was their relative debt. They borrowed something like 400 billion dollars and we have 18 trillion in debt. Now tell me again how that is a good thing for this country.
You're the perfect MSNBC puppet, you believe everything they say and vote against you're own interests. I'm not dependent on the government to pay my bills or provide my healthcare, so I vote for the party that lets me keep more of my money. And don't start crap about paying my fair share. I'm guarantee I pay more in taxes than the 99%, which is my fair share. And don't start talking about being born with a silver spoon because that isn't nearly the case. I worked my ass off baling hay, and doing other farm work while my dad worked in a factory. I went to the army to pay for college. I worked in the cafeteria during college and did landscaping in the summer. I worked in a bar and then in a law firm to put myself through law school. Now I get to be the guy who looks for hardworking kids and give them a chance to make a successful career. I'm comfortable with my choices.
You shouldn't pretend to know me because we disagree on a message board.
I'll give you some credit for finding and posting these. I won't be responding further, instead I'll remember you for your generosity in sharing.
This is way too simplistic and even Keynes would disagree on your deficit spending defense.
Just to be clear, no one claimed borrowing money in and of itself is good for the economy. SPENDING money is good for the economy (more below). Borrowing in order to spend is important in bad economic times because it means we don't have to raise taxes while the economy is weak. When the economy is booming, I have no problem raising taxes in order to pay off some of the debt, or at least balance the budget so as not to accrue new debt. But simply paying off all the debt is a dumb goal standing alone.
The only time sovereign debt is bad - and I think this applies to Greece, Spain and Italy - is when you start getting to the point that creditors will no longer give you favorable rates out of fear you will default. The U.S. doesn't have that problem. Despite our increase in debt this past decade, investors still flock to treasuries as the safe investment. The only way we'll ever default is if Congress doesn't raise the debt ceiling, which is why it was the debt ceiling debacle, and not increased spending, that caused our credit rating to take a hit. And even then, the response of the world investors to a crisis invented wholly from thin air by our own dumbass legislators? Buy more treasuries.
Now, back to spending. The key is where the money goes. Borrowing money to bail out banks is, in my mind, a problem. If banks are too big to fail, then they need to be broken up. The government should not be in the business of bailing out companies simply because deregulation allowed them to grow so big that we can't afford to let them collapse while simultaneously giving them the green light to engage in risky business practices making their collapse more likely. If a company is so important to the national welfare that we can't let it fail, then it needs to be nationalized, heavily regulated or broken up into smaller companies.
But spending money on projects is where it's at. There are things we need to build. New bridges, new roads, etc. This infrastructure is critical for the economy, and we are going to have to buy them eventually. A few years ago, real interest rates were literally below zero*. We could have borrowed money at a discount in order to buy these things. Investors would have literally been paying us to build new stuff that our economy needs anyway. We were too dumb to take advantage. I can't stress enough how dumb this was. Any time interest rates drop below the rate of inflation, the time value of money makes debt more valuable than assets (so long as you use that debt to build/buy things of value instead of just sticking the money it in your mattress). Our country dropped the ball because our leaders are incompetent and have convinced the populace that government spending is inherently bad.
* Note: I'm talking about interest rates as compared to inflation. This is not the same as the negative interest rates certain European central banks are toying with, as they are dealing with deflation, and so the real rates are actually still positive. This is an entirely different ball of wax.
Foos, we have actually met twice, though I wouldn't say that means I know you. I may know you in the biblical sense, because I did a lot of black-out binge drinking at IU, and who the frack knows went on then.
I'm not smart enough to know if deficit spending is good, that's Goat's area, for the record. I use my VA benefits and have volunteered at two VA centers. That is my wheelhouse area (well, that and polymer chemistry). I have also learned a lot about deflation and the atmosphere from Outside Shooter. I think I could write my thesis on it at this point, but I digress.
I also don't watch MSNBC or any American media for that matter. I listen to NPR, but that is 99% Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me, This American Life and Car Talk.
On the political spectrum, I am in the lower left quadrant out there with the Dalai Lama. I like 3 democrats off the top of my head (Sherrod Brown, Warren, and Sanders). I despise Obama, Bill and Hillary, Kerry and the rest of the Wall Street Dems that voted yes for NAFTA.
I'm not smart enough to know if deficit spending is good, that's Goat's area, for the record. I use my VA benefits and have volunteered at two VA centers. That is my wheelhouse area (well, that and polymer chemistry). I have also learned a lot about deflation and the atmosphere from Outside Shooter. I think I could write my thesis on it at this point, but I digress.
I also don't watch MSNBC or any American media for that matter. I listen to NPR, but that is 99% Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me, This American Life and Car Talk.
On the political spectrum, I am in the lower left quadrant out there with the Dalai Lama. I like 3 democrats off the top of my head (Sherrod Brown, Warren, and Sanders). I despise Obama, Bill and Hillary, Kerry and the rest of the Wall Street Dems that voted yes for NAFTA.
I doubt you know yourself, douche.
Here I'll help you out.
You're a beer phag. You watch fox news. You support the republican party and have the personality of a retarded turnip. Well, almost, as a retarded turnip would be interesting for a minute while you're not.
Then you have the ignorant audacity combined with a complete lack of perception to call someone a redneck and hillbilly without realizing that you are probably the biggest and only actual hillbilly in this thread. Hell I bet you listen to country music.
You probably grew up in small town Bubbaville, moved to the big city and now consider yourself cultured and worldly while denying the existence of your inbred hillbilly slack jawed breeding and are living in a delusion that you're somehow better the genetically disabled parents that created you.
You forgot there is probably a "support your troops" bumper sticker and a pair of truck balls hanging from the trailer hitch. Just a guess.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
Pacers take it to Milwaukee tonight tie the series 1-1- Latest: From the Balcony
-
Fort Wayne native, Illinois guard Luke Goode in transfer portal- Latest: outside shooter
-
-
-