ADVERTISEMENT

Anyone who believes that IU's struggle getting back...

P

Paterfamilias

All-Big Ten
Dec 3, 2010
3,705
2,805
113
to the top can be even partially blamed on dusty banners, facilities or the age of Assembly Hall, please explain this fact.

Going back to the Watford class, IU leads the Big Ten in landing top 75 recruits


Indiana 13
Ohio St 11
Illinois 10
Maryland 7
Michigan 5
Mich St. 4
Purdue 2
Minnesota 2
Wisconsin 1
Iowa 1
Nebraska 0
N-Western 0
Rutgers 0
Penn St. 0

Notice that MSU and Wisconsin have combined to land 5 top 75 recruits compared to IU's 13! The excuses that often get thrown around, if true, would serve to explain difficulties on the recruiting trail. We are not recruiting at the level of UK, Duke or UNC, but we very rarely ever did. Regardless, those Elite Blue Blood schools are not our competition in the Big 10.
 
The issue isn't the players...it's the coach....

...and now you've added more gasoline to the "Crean must go" fire...
 
Perhaps, but it was not my intention...

to lambaste Crean. At this point at least, he is not having a "must go" season. I like the addition of Morgan and, depending on roster turnover, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he has a top 10-15 team next season.

I've never been a fan of his as a coach, but it seems a stretch to fire him at this juncture. Many may have good reasons to want him gone, but it doesn't make it the right (fair) thing to do.
 
Re: It's also entirely possible that.....

.....the recruiting gurus got it all wrong.

What % of those top 75 kids panned out for us?
Arguably, the one guy who had the most impact of any of our recruits in the last decade was a guy rated #131 by the services. Victor Oladipo.

Is it possible too that Wisconsin found a bunch of diamonds in the rough through savvy recruiting?
They don't lead the list but they have a bunch of kids who would easily start over many of these 4-star recruits.
 
Fair doesn't mean anything.

We pay him for a job. We pay him well*. If we think he's the right guy for the job, we should continue to pay him. If we don't think he's the right guy for the job, we should write a check for his (generous) severance and wish him well. But we shouldn't get bogged down in what's "fair" or what he's earned. The only thing he's earned, he's already getting - a pay check. Whether or not we keep him should be based entirely on whether or not we think he is The Guy going forward, nothing else.

goat

* By "we," I mean the state of Indiana. I personally only donate to academic departments, so none of the money came directly from "me."
 
What is the source of your data?

I thought Michigan State seemed low, so I checked, using ESPN (I used this one because it was the easiest to find).

Over the time indicated, MSU has 6, not 4 in the top 75:
2014: Lourawls Nairn2012: Gary Harris2011: Branden Dawson2010: Adreian Payne, Keith Appling, Russell ByrdAlso, it seems arbitrary to cut the list at 75. I know IUs list might grow too, but over that time MSU had an additional 4 players between 75 and 100: Kenny Kaminski, Matt Costello, and Denzel Valentine in 2012 and Derrick Nix in 2009. So that would be a total of 10.

Larger point is that from your post it visually appears as if you pasted the data from somewhere. Did you check it? It seems a little off just from the eyeball test.
 
I know nothing about Morgan so does his addition help in any way our...

lack of an inside presence? His height is what 6'7? He appears to need weight like most freshman. At this point in time and without another addition, won't we have the same inside problems next year that we have this year?
 
Phog Allen, Cameron Indoor, Rupp,etc..

Most elite programs still have there historic arenas...Its the practice facilities that matter and IU has that covered with Cook Hall.
 
How in the world can you read his post and think he is complaining?

It is a statement of fact about recruiting in the BT.

Going further about your post. Others have posted similar things, which boils down to Bobby McFerrin ideology, don't worry, be happy. And evidently, as sick as you get reading posts that, in this case, "seem" to be critical of CTC, I get equally sick of reading "don't worry, be happy", "let the season play out", "don't fret" post. This is a discussion forum about IU basketball and if I want to complain mid-season then so be it.
 
Same problems next year...

Davis returning should help but still no stud big and perhaps Williams and maybe Yogi gone too.

Mediocrity.
 
Maybe not complaining....

but this particular topic and poster have a long history together....which is probably the reason for the other poster's response. We all know where it's heading eventually.
 
So, are you saying that IU's reputation and facilities have...

dipped to the point that we can no longer attract the unranked 3 star gems and are stuck leading the conference in top 75 recruits until we update Assembly Hall etc.??? Even if that made any sense whatsoever, Crean has done a decent job himself of finding some lower rated gems.
 
Statsheet.com is the source and the reason for the top 75...

cutoff is that # of top 75 players had the strongest correlation to final sagarin rating over the 8 year period that I used when I did the study a few years ago. The # of 76-100 ranked players had almost zero correlation to final Sagarin Rating while 1-25, 26-50, 51-75 and 26-75 all had very strong correlations. Statsheet uses the RSCI top 100 which is a cumulative rating of several services, so one could look to any individual service to find different data.
 
Verbalcommits.com has Morgan at 6'8 210. In his video....

he looks well put together to me. I would like to get a true big too, but true bigs that can (or want) to play in Crean's system might be few and far between. If the right pieces return next year, I think Crean pretty much has his dream team.
 
Probably so, but I just see it as poor form at this point...

in this season to be having that conversation. The team seemed beaten at some point in the 2nd half of each of these games...

SMU
Butler
@Nebraska
Ohio St.
@Illinois
Rutgers

They have fought back to win games that appeared lost and would've been lost for sure a year ago. Even if you don't respect the coaching staff, you've got to respect the fight in the team up to this point. Every game down the stretch will likely be another fight and a tourney bid is still yet far from assured. I want more for IU basketball (big picture), but I would like to see these current kids have some success without the cloud of discontent hovering during the season.
 
Re: Probably so, but I just see it as poor form at this point...

That assumes everyone comes back and i doubt williams, yogi, and jbj all come back.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
I see no complaining

I just see a very interesting FACT that I would have never guessed.
 
Will agree, somewhat...but, the flip side is there too

Absolutely, this team and Coach Crean have bettered expectations for this team this year so far. I do get tired of the nattering nabobs of negativity...to steal a phrase from way back. They get overly shrill at times. I just stop coming to these sites for a while.

But the team is inconsistent. Just look at the MSU game or the OSU game. And the 'playing down' to the competition such as the most recent game with Rutgers at the AH.

And IU's defense is sad compared to other teams in the B1G or in the NCAA Div I.

Since the team does mail it in sometimes...they are subject to fan disapproval for that.

And the fans are subject to being lectured since they, at times, don't support the team and/or the coach to the best of their abilities, too.

I supported Crean for 6 years. I support him now, until the end of this season. But, clearly, there will be enough data to thoroughly evaluate where IU basketball is going, or not going. And I believe that I will be rather disappointed if Fred Glass extends CTC's contract even if IU makes it to the Sweet 16.

I just gotta expect that IU is checking the parachute.

And having the conversation here on Peegs or other similar websites may be read by the team. So be it. Welcome to the B1G and the world of college basketball. It is at times not fair to some. It can be rude. It might be ill timed. It is all of that.

The players must learn to perform through times of adversity.
 
Re: Fair doesn't mean anything.


He's paid through the athletic department, there being no state or university funds involved. The athletic dept. is self-sustaining with income from ticket sales, apparel sales, IU boosters, Big-10 network contracts, etc. I looked up the income and expense for basketball for a couple years ago and found them showing a profit of some $9 million as I recall.

If that number goes south, then Crean and perhaps Glass will have that on them, however those who don't like Crean, you surely don't wish the athletic dept. ill will too,......or do you?
 
Re: Will agree, somewhat...but, the flip side is there too

Not sure why people keep throwing up Rutgers as a poor team? They may be one of the worst in the BIG but they did beat Wisconsin! Seems like every team Indiana beats is suddenly a poor team that we should have destroyed.
 
Re: Will agree, somewhat...but, the flip side is there too

Because Rutgers is a poor team, maybe that's why? They got lucky on a night UW was playing without Kaminsky, but that one night doesn't change what they have been for the past 3+ months
 
Not sure that's deserving of any type of accolade...

considering we should have won most of those games in the first place. Maybe not being in a position where they could have lost would be better? It's almost if you're rewarding him for the incompetence of last year and the incompetence of being down to teams we should have beaten this year. Get me?

There's no great honor in winning games you should win, but there's no disgrace either. Basically it's holding serve only. It's what we should be doing.

The Butler win and OSU win are good wins, maybe not exceptional but still good wins. The rest were games where there should have been little question of the outcome. Nebraska is horrible, Illinois was decimated by injury. They were road games, so that's good but beating them was no great deed. SMU had two major players out or injured, and Rutgers wouldn't compete in the Ivy league.

If those teams are deemed competent enough and expected and accepted to be competitive with us, then we truly are a 45 to 55 ranked team like the computers say we are. And if we are, I see no reason to be happy about it or to accept it as being proficient. At Indiana being 45th to 55th is basically failure and if you look at preseason expectations, we are on a national level exactly or just above where most negative posters picked us to be.

I don't see Crean greatly exceeding expectations, as much as most other conference teams not meeting their potential, or being hurt by injury. Those saying we are having a "great year" are rewarding him for other teams having problems as much as us not having them. That's not Indiana basketball. Indiana basketball is not in any way great when we are a bubble team.

If we are deemed to be"better" than those teams, then there should be no question to as if we should win those games and if that is the expectation, then there should be no gold stars awarded for beating them and especially because we couldn't last year. We should be beating team.

Are we the 3rd or 4th best team in the conference or are we the 50th best team in the country? Or, are we both?






This post was edited on 2/2 1:00 PM by Guy_Fawkes
 
They played without Kaminsky and Traevon Jackson


I think they lost Traevon Jackson to an injury.
 
That's not true.

The Athletic Department receives plenty of subsidies from public money. For example, almost $1 million dollars are spent on academic support for athletes, paid for out of the general fund. In 2013, the athletic department received subsidies of almost $2.6 million from the school, about 3.4% of total revenue (which doesn't count the academic support, I believe). That's not to mention all of the university-wide costs which are expanded by the existence of robust athletic departments (such as policing), which are paid for out of either the general fund or other non-athletic auxiliary funds. Self-sustaining is a myth.

Even if the Athletic Department were self-sustaining, there is this:

If the Athletic Dept. didn't have a separate funding mechanism, if it came out of the general fund, then those ticket and apparel sales, and the TV money, would all go into the general fund. And I'm sure some boosters would donate less, but some of that money would go to the Foundation, and it's not a majority, anyway. In 2013, of nearly $77 million in revenue, the Athletic Department received $15.4 million in donations. The rest came from tickets, licensing, etc., that could go to the university. Long story short, every dollar that goes to the Athletic Dept. is potentially a dollar that could be spent elsewhere. So, yeah, the accounting says they are self-sustaining, but that's an illusion. Crean is paid by the state of Indiana. The state is spending over $200 million per year for the Bloomington campus alone. That's not counting special projects, like $2.5 million/year for research grants. Every dollar spent on athletics is one more dollar the IGA has to allocate for the rest of the university.

Tom Crean is an employee of the university*, and therefore the state, not the athletic department.

goat

* Technically, the Trustees.
 
I'm interested to know...

How many seasons did each program get out of those recruits...4 years of Adreian Payne is better than 1 year of Noah Vonleh.

I'm not suggesting that this will even it out, or change the analysis...I'm just interested to know. We got 4 years out of Watford and 4 out of Creek, although Creek's career shouldn't really count as 4...

Maybe how many games each recruit played...or at least were available to play in....that might give a better sense of the recruiting situation.
 
Re: That's not true.


How do you explain the $9 million each that the football and basketball programs showed in net profits as shown in past public records.

You have to understand that the big sports pass monies on to the university in order that several sport programs can be sustained, those that do not sustain themselves, both men and women sports, but not basketball.

When the big sport money is not there, then you will see universities cut some non-revenue sports, or perhaps one of the big money sports that's not producing $$$'s, ala UAB.
 
"Self-sustaining is a myth."


Refer to the site called, "The Business of College Sports, Self Sustaining Athletic Departments."

There are 22 schools whose athletic depts. are self-sustaining, one being IU.

The Big-10 TV contract is worth $30.9 million per original school in 2014/15 and goes up to $44.5 million in 2017/18. Don't expect IU athletics to be a loser anytime in the near future. In fact, don't be surprised if we add something like hockey or such.
 
So?

The point was the athletic dept still takes subsidies and still takes advantage of university-wide spending from the general fund. The point was also that the separation of athletic and general funding is just an accounting trick.

I'm not trying to argue we cut sports. But you were using this line of reasoning the deny that Crean is a public employee. That was wrong.
 
You are wrong.....


and I think you're smart enough to realize it. There are sports that are subsidized, however they're subsidized from the major sport revenues, all of which are encased within the athletic department. At IU, the athletic dept. is on its own, it's one of 22 as illustrated in the article I referenced.

I'd like to see your reference articles.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

I

My wife and I at Michigan State game Nov 11, 1967

Replies
5
Views
717
IU Football Board
abraxis
A
M

A Look at BT QBs

Replies
18
Views
1K
IU Football Board
Hoosiers Rising
Hoosiers Rising
T

Washington Game Notes

Replies
15
Views
2K
IU Football Board
kmathum
kmathum
IUNorth

My own mock CFP projections

Replies
30
Views
1K
IU Football Board
bum4iu2
B
M

Big 10 grades to this point...........

Replies
4
Views
2K
IU Football Board
Orbit7958
Orbit7958
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT
Top Bottom
Back