Anybody here think Tom Crean is a good coach?
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I'm a body of work guy and I generally don't get into these conversations in-season unless there is a major failure of some kind, but I will say I don't think Crean is the long-term answer at IU. He can recruit well, but he'll never be able to deliver the product that IU basketball fans expect and desire, which is solid fundamentals on both ends of the floor. With the length of his contract and the fact that he gets decent enough results, there's no obvious exit strategy in the near future. Hopefully Stevens will get tired of the NBA soon. That's likely wishful thinking, but I think that guy could do amazing things at IU.
IIRC, approximately 0% of the Cooler denizens think Crean can coach. One of the rare issues concerning which we are all basically on the same page.
I've been skeptical of Crean for several years now, but tonight was just unspeakably bad. It's almost impossible for a team with this much talent to lose to Wake Forest. Obviously, "almost" is the key word, there, but there's no way to watch that abomination tonight and not come to the conclusion that the blame goes straight to the top.
I've been skeptical of Crean for several years now, but tonight was just unspeakably bad. It's almost impossible for a team with this much talent to lose to Wake Forest. Obviously, "almost" is the key word, there, but there's no way to watch that abomination tonight and not come to the conclusion that the blame goes straight to the top.
That's what I thought too, Goat: I swear I've seen Big 12 teams that play better basketball than IU, and they don't even like basketball down here. I think he's just a rotten coach, and I fear we're stuck with him. I want something better than "decent enough results."
I think he is a horrible coach and have all along even in his few successful years with Cody and Vic. I posted the following at the BBall site which sums up my feelings:
I was wrong when I told my son before the start of the season that we had enough talent to overcome any problems related to the coaching. I was wrong that I felt their defense would improve as we now had a rim protector and our guards all had another season of experience behind them and thinking that surely with a bench full of Div 1 coaches our defense would surely improve.
Dakich was right if in fact he said James couldn't guard a chair and James certainly isn't the only one who can't defend. Spread the floor and drive to the bucket is the simple solution to creating problems for IU. I swear my old aching arse could penetrate and score against our dribble defense.
Defense requires a mindset to exert effort to do so and it appears we have very little effort to do so and perhaps are more worried about personal stats than the effort to defend. Apparently our coach doesn't place a huge amount of effort in encouraging and enforcing defense rules, effort, and the correct mindset.
We were humiliated in the paint scoring as well. Humiliated! And rebounding....where was it? Hell the shortest guy on the floor got half our offensive rebounds.
The shot selection at the end was shameful. Troy continues to score and with exception of tonight rebound very well but his decision making process and turnovers negate most of what he accomplishes. And Yogi wasn't leading at the end and made some very poor decisions.
Another year of questionable substitution patterns as well.
I told the wife at the last timeout and few remaining seconds that Wake would dribble drive into the paint and make a layup. Guess what....sigh. As simple as that.
At times coach looked like the proverbial deer in the headlights routine. Out coached by a coach with a 53-48 head coach record.
I fear a very long and unpredictable season and in all probability very disappointing. I'm not sure if our coaching staff is capable of teaching and enforcing defense and frankly not sure if this group of kids will ever have the will or mindset to play defense. It seems to be all about scoring and sadly personal stats.
I was wrong when I told my son before the start of the season that we had enough talent to overcome any problems related to the coaching. I was wrong that I felt their defense would improve as we now had a rim protector and our guards all had another season of experience behind them and thinking that surely with a bench full of Div 1 coaches our defense would surely improve.
Dakich was right if in fact he said James couldn't guard a chair and James certainly isn't the only one who can't defend. Spread the floor and drive to the bucket is the simple solution to creating problems for IU. I swear my old aching arse could penetrate and score against our dribble defense.
Defense requires a mindset to exert effort to do so and it appears we have very little effort to do so and perhaps are more worried about personal stats than the effort to defend. Apparently our coach doesn't place a huge amount of effort in encouraging and enforcing defense rules, effort, and the correct mindset.
We were humiliated in the paint scoring as well. Humiliated! And rebounding....where was it? Hell the shortest guy on the floor got half our offensive rebounds.
The shot selection at the end was shameful. Troy continues to score and with exception of tonight rebound very well but his decision making process and turnovers negate most of what he accomplishes. And Yogi wasn't leading at the end and made some very poor decisions.
Another year of questionable substitution patterns as well.
I told the wife at the last timeout and few remaining seconds that Wake would dribble drive into the paint and make a layup. Guess what....sigh. As simple as that.
At times coach looked like the proverbial deer in the headlights routine. Out coached by a coach with a 53-48 head coach record.
I fear a very long and unpredictable season and in all probability very disappointing. I'm not sure if our coaching staff is capable of teaching and enforcing defense and frankly not sure if this group of kids will ever have the will or mindset to play defense. It seems to be all about scoring and sadly personal stats.
I think we need to see him coach first to know if he is a good coach. He has done something that I didn't think anyone could do, take pressure off of Wilson needing to win Saturday. The debate over the football coach pales in Indiana to the debate over the basketball coach.
I don't think so. IU played another horrible game to lose to a team that shouldn't be able to beat them and it happens several times each season. When IU wins its because they shot lights out and overcame a consistently awful defense. The inability to coach any IU team to play good defense makes Crean a poor coach overall. However, I think IU will be just good enough this season so that we're stuck with him again. It's painful as a fan that wants IU to win every game to see them win just enough to keep it painful and tee it up to do it all over again the next year.
Crean is not the answer. I very seldom think that firing a coach is always the answer, but in this case for the long term yes. Some of the things this "team" does is beyond me. Under RMK many of these players would be getting a lot of pine time. I know he coached in a different era but fundamentals still apply.
Just think about what the last decade-and-a-half hath wrought:
- The departure of a legend, an icon, a leader who all knew could out-coach the opposition and frequently win with, at times, a little less talent than the other guy. The era started with most fans of the Hurryin' Hoosiers not quite understanding the meaning and purpose of defense. We learned quickly, however.
- The elevation of an unprepared assistant, totally incapable of handling the position, intellectually and emotionally. The talent overcame his insecurities and vapidity and made a miracle run to the national championship game, securing what was destined to be a disaster.
- The worst hiring ever by the university, placing in charge of one of the premier programs in the country a known cheat and scoundrel. He brought in "talent" more suited to the local federal penitentiary.
- The "Let's Get This Fixed Hire". I thought Tom Crean was the right guy, at the right time. He said all of the right things; he had the enthusiasm for the job; he understood the place IU holds. He threw out the meatheads and stoners and promised a return to better times. He won his first Big Ten game on the night of the day our last Golden died. I thought we'd see another banner in a few years. I had high, high hopes ......
I was willing to overlook the questions I had as Zeller, Oladipo, Hulls and company brought us back into prominence. But the last few games of that big season, culminating in the Syracuse debacle, lead me to take a peek at the Dark Side, the belief that what we were seeing was truly smoke and mirrors. I was hoping I was wrong, but everything since then has pushed me exponentially to the point where I'd go to Bloomington, shake Tom Crean's hand, salute him for bringing us out the POS Sampson dark days era and give him a check, from Mark Cuban's account, with the admonition to find his life's work elsewhere.
I've had enough, and I've now had it enough for too long. We learned to play defense in junior and senior high school, where we practiced for days without a ball in sight, working on positioning, footwork and proper spacing and technique. You might be able to shoot and score but you didn't play unless you could first prove you were willing and capable to lay it all out on the defensive side. We learned, and we didn't have anywhere near this type of God-given talent or athletic ability.
But we had coaching ............................
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Hell no.
What's Crean done that Mike Davis hasn't? That's not a great thing to put on your resume.
I've always thought that the quality of coaching a team receives is reflected in the last 10 games of the season, when all teams have incorporated their freshman, have put in all the offenses and defenses they're going to use, and have plenty of opportunities to make adjustments to how other teams are scheming them. Here are Crean's last 3 years:
2012-2013: Last 10, 6-4 . . . prior to last 10, 23-3.
2013-2014: Last 10, 3-7 . . . prior to last 10, 16-8.
2014-2015: Last 10, 3-7 . . . prior to last 10, 17-7.
His best team, ranked No. 1 in the country going into the last 10, was barely over .500. Overall he's 12-18 over his last 10 in the last 3 years, and that includes his best team.
I know, I know, you can make arguments that games in the NCAA tournament are against higher level competition, and BiG tournament games don't really matter . . . but I call BS on those arguments, as a basketball game is a basketball game, and you either can win it or you can't win it.
From what I've seen, Crean is like a crow, distracted by shiny objects. He prefers a deflection or two to preventing several layups, and prefers a gambling, outside-in defense to solid, inside-out defensive positioning that provides the best opportunity to gain inside rebounding position.
Crean can coach basketball, I guess, but it's not a type of basketball that I want to be associated with or watch. It's losing basketball, where talking about how great we looked on those occasional spins to the bucket, or the occasional steal and breakaway dunk are more important than choking the other team's offensive flow to non-existence.
Here's how bad Crean is as a coach; Kevin Wilson - with only 5 years in his first HC gig - is a better program manager, better recruiter, better motivator, better offensive coach, better special teams (transition) coach, and his defenses (as bad as their statistics have been) are more competitive and much closer to being good than Crean's defensive teams have ever been. If we keep Crean and Wilson for the next 10 years we'll be more of a football school than a basketball school.
IMO, time to extend Wilson and at the end of this season it'll be time to let Crean go . . . .
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No. I thought that was clear years ago and yet people continue to hop on the bandwagon every year, expecting that there will be a big change.
I love him and hope he is at IU for life
More damnation is not possible than your post . . . .
Only one thing can bad said about such nonsense. POTFB!!!!I love him and hope he is at IU for life
What sort of unholy alliance do you and MTIOTF have on the football board regarding Wilson? Both of you should take a deep breath and wonder why you would ever agree with the other.Mind you, I am not necessarily a Wilson detractor, I'm just on the fence. I keep hearing one can't turn around a program in less than something like 7 years, then I look back at Northwestern's rise from a 0 win season to the Rose Bowl in 4. On the other hand, we look better. On the other hand, our pre-conference schedule has become so pathetic I am not sure some Texas high schools wouldn't have gone 4-0, on the other hand we have played some very good teams very close, on the other hand, some of those very good teams have struggled against everyone (Ohio State barely beat their pre-conference turkeys), on the other hand recruiting has improved, on the other hand we are a kid missing an easy catch from having lost to an FCS team and not having a shot at a bowl.
All that is a fancy way of saying, if we beat Noodle's team we are going to keep Wilson, if we lose we probably keep him. I'm OK with that. But if they decide not to, I'm OK with that too. He hasn't struck me as a once in a program coach we have to hold onto, but he isn't Bill Lynch either.
Somebody had their shot of vanilla today.........
In the next three years, we'll win 8-9 pre-conference games, 3-6 conference games and there will be those urging more time for Wilson. And, given Fred Glass, Wilson will likely get that extra time. Oh, and the fans will be blamed ....
The thing that's striking about that comparison is Wilson's grasp of what's going on during the game versus Crean's. He can do what you'd expect a coach to do and give you a detailed breakdown of specific plays and what went wrong, what specific players did, etc (much like RMK could) and is completely locked in. I was impressed that he immediately saw a pass getting tipped on one play in the Maryland game (and that was across the field from the IU sideline) that negated a PI call on IU.
Crean's repeatedly mentioned in post-game interviews that he'll "have to check the tape" to see what went wrong. I'm not sure why he can't see that from the sidelines with 10 players on the court when Wilson can see what's going on despite there being 22 players on the field.
Hell no! I was ready to fire him after the 2013 season. He did a lousy job in the B1G and NCAA tournament with the number 1 team in the country and followed up with a lousy season. He needs to go.
Having hung around the Cooler with IU basketball fans since the days of RMK I cannot help but note the change in emphasis from the focus on offense to defense.
In the days of RMK the fans were devoted to praising the motion-offense as if it was unique to IU. Now in this thread the emphasis on coaching has switched to teaching defense.
Is it because under RMK good defense was taken for granted and is now appreciated because it is lacking, or have IU fans come to realize the importance of good defense, or what?.
In the days of RMK the fans were devoted to praising the motion-offense as if it was unique to IU. Now in this thread the emphasis on coaching has switched to teaching defense.
Is it because under RMK good defense was taken for granted and is now appreciated because it is lacking, or have IU fans come to realize the importance of good defense, or what?.
We appreciate good defense. We've seen good defense. We know good defense requires hard work, and we appreciate hard work.
There are nights your shots just won't fall. But your defense should never fail. As long as you work at it it doesn't desert you.
When we see poor defense now we thus have to believe they aren't working at it and/or they just don't care. And that pisses us off.
IU fans appreciate good defense, which includes good rebounding on the defensive boards. During the '75/'76 years fans would clap, cheer, rise to their feet and applaud, and often demand good defensive plays. We would give raucous standing ovations for defensive stands that would last 60, 90 or 120 seconds, forcing the other team to reset and start over - over and over; we knew the other team wouldn't be able to score. The crowd would go nutz . . . .
Heck, on occasion the local McDonalds franchise would give out free food for low defensive scores - free cokes or french fries for under 50 points, full Big Mac meals for under 40 points. At that time, I loved it when IU would play Wisconsin.
IU's '81 team was also a defense-first team, anchored by Ray Tolbert and ignited by guys like Isiah and Jim Thomas. Everybody - and I mean everybody - on that team rebounded, and to rebound every one of those guys blocked out.
IMO, IU is, or at least should be, a defensive/rebounding basketball program first and foremost. Take those same guys who play defense/block out/rebound well and teach them their roles in the offense, then sprinkle in an offensive oriented player or two . . . you can't teach a soft offensive player to player to play effective defense, but you can take a kid who spills his guts to play defense to also play within an offense and be effective. And then once in a while you find those guys who can play at both ends . . . and magic happens.
PS - The frustration you hear today is borne of this stat: 43-30. Wake had 43 rebounds, with 18 on the offensive end, to IU's grand total of 30 with 11 on the offensive end - which means that IU had ONE more board on IU's defensive end than Wake had on the same end. That's nothing but positioning and balls. IU had neither last night, and IMO has rarely had either during Crean's tenure. The sooner he's gone the sooner IU has a chance to heal the program and become itself again.
PSS - BTW, that is not to say that I do not appreciate what Crean has done with the program, in terms of taking over a moribund program from the Sampson debacle and putting it on more solid footing as a program - academic integrity and compliance with the rules chief among the attributes of "program". But that only goes so far . . . we can get a coach who can do all those same program requirements, IMO, and still put a better product on the floor. I'm ready to take that step and the risk associated with it.
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I don't agree with your last paragraph. Not only has IU struggled on the court, but the off-the-court antics have begun to rival the Sampson era. And that is with the religious hypocrisy stuff.
Do you remember when Yes and Emerson, Lake, and Palmer kind of merged and made that Supergroup "Asia" and when you first heard about it you thought it could be kinda cool but then they released "Heat of the Moment" and it got played on the radio all the time and every time you heard it you wanted to just come to a screeching stop and jump out of the car and punch the nearest person in the side of the head?
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about Tom Crean.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about Tom Crean.
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LOL. That's perfect.
That's about the way I feel while in the office and I have Deep Tracks on Sirius XM and they play anything by Queen, Yes, Rush, Genesis, Billy Joel and/or Renaissance. Can't stand 'em and I do want to punch Sirius in the side of its head. But that perfectly describes the feeling about Crean at this point. Kudos on the apt description and the optics.
Here's the issue . . . when MTIOTF and I are so vehemently arguing the same position about something (neither of us would ever acknowledge that we agree), then either (1) we know what we're talking about and e'rebody oughta pay attention, or (2) it's damned clear that whatever we're advocating is just so dead wrong that y'all can bet that house against it. Soooo . . . you gonna bet the house?
BTW, what do you mean "unholy"?
And clearly "alliance" is too strong of a word . . . we simply have arrived at the same position regarding retaining CKW . . . which ought to provide a good measure of "every damned fool can see" credibility.
That's exactly how I felt and still do about that Asia, and that song. I was excited when the group came together, then quickly came to hate their music - especially that song.
Oh, and also agree with the analogy re: Crean
If you want a coach that will create a schedule to win an average of 21 games per season and lose 10 per season, Crean is your guy. You have to realize there will be some 17 win seasons and some 23 win seasons spread in there to appease the crowd with higher expectations. He knows how to win enough to keep his job. That works for many programs, but isn't a long term fit for IU. He brought the program from the bottom to a #1 ranking, but could not sustain it.
I don't think he is a bad coach, he just isn't an elite coach. Elite coaches tend to find a program and stay there. We have to hire a coach that becomes an elite coach at IU. Crean has this year and next to make that case. I predict we will be looking for a new coach in 2018 after the '17-'18 season is over.
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