Any of The PLO Missiles Bought With Obama's Iran Pay-Off?

brianiu

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May 11, 2008
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LEADERS

/ ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS
Stopping the cycle

Only negotiations will bring lasting peace

IT WAS A confrontation waiting to happen, in a conflict the world would rather ignore. Israelis and Palestinians have once again goaded each other to the brink of war in the Holy Land. Hundreds of rockets, fired by Palestinian militants, have been aimed at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and southern Israel. Gaza, the Palestinian territory run by Hamas, a violent Islamist movement, has been hit even harder by Israeli air strikes. Arabs and Jews have clashed in the streets of Israeli cities. Dozens of people, most of them Palestinian, have been killed.


The worst fighting between Israelis and Palestinians in years has Jerusalem at its heart, as so often (see Middle East & Africa section). In April, at the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, Israel’s police chief fenced off the plaza around the Damascus Gate, one of the entrances to Jerusalem’s old walled city and a gathering spot for Palestinians. The move, made for “security reasons”, led to clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police. Hundreds were injured. Then the rockets started flying.

The violence, as ever, is counterproductive. Turning Israeli cities “into hell”, as Hamas threatens, will not help the Palestinians who suffer grievously in Gaza—just the opposite, in fact. Every rocket that Hamas fires makes it easier for Israel to claim that it has “no partner for peace” and to intensify its siege of Gaza. But Israel, too, must reconsider its strategy. Its leaders view the broader conflict as something to be managed, not solved. Yet its unjust treatment of the Palestinians stores up trouble. Today’s crisis was predictable—even if the spark that ignited it was not.
Jerusalem epitomises the problem. Israel claims the city as its “eternal and undivided capital”. But its inhabitants are irrevocably split. The eastern part of the city, although captured by Israel in 1967, remains largely Palestinian. The Oslo accords of 1993 left the city’s status to be settled in a permanent peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. But Israel has built a wall separating Jerusalem from the Palestinian hinterland. It seeks to strengthen its claim to the whole city by ringing it with new Jewish homes and squeezing Palestinians out. Though they make up 38% of Jerusalem’s population, most local Palestinians are not citizens but mere “residents”, granted access to health care and social security, but not the same rights as Jews.


This disparity in the law is at the heart of a case before Israel’s Supreme Court that is making the atmosphere more febrile. The court is reviewing a judgment to evict Palestinian families from the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood of East Jerusalem. Their homes sit on land that was owned by Jews before Jordan occupied the eastern part of Jerusalem in 1948. Israeli law allows the heirs of the original owners to reclaim property in East Jerusalem. Yet Palestinians cannot claim their former homes in West Jerusalem (or anywhere else in Israel). No wonder Palestinian residents of the city are always ready to protest.

The injustices elsewhere are worse. Palestinians in the wider West Bank, like those in Jerusalem, have watched Israel confiscate land and build settlements on occupied territory, which is illegal under international law. They must also deal with Israeli checkpoints and an onerous permit regime. In Gaza more than 2m Palestinians have been cut off from the world by Israeli and Egyptian blockades since 2007, when Hamas grabbed control. The territory struggles to keep the lights on; the tap water is filthy. Despair at such conditions led to violence in 2018 and 2019, and is feeding the current spasm.

Yet Israeli politicians ignore the conflict. The Palestinian issue did not feature in any of the four elections Israel has recently held. Most Israelis are comfortable with the “anti-solutionism” of Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, who shows little interest in pursuing a permanent settlement with the Palestinians. His domestic rivals are edging closer to a deal that would push him out of power. But, before the recent violence, they said little about how they would handle the conflict.

Palestinian leaders have made it easy for Israel to give up on peace. Hamas is more interested in firing rockets than improving the lives of Gazans. Its rival, Fatah, has not done much better in the West Bank. The party’s leader, Mahmoud Abbas, is in the 17th year of a four-year term as Palestine’s president. He seems concerned mainly with preserving his own power. On April 29th, blaming Israel for restricting voting in East Jerusalem, he indefinitely postponed elections that Fatah was likely to lose.
With little hope of a better future, a good number of young Palestinians favour confronting Israel. That makes repeated fits of deadly violence inevitable. Only negotiations will bring lasting peace. Western and regional powers should press for them to resume; Israeli and Palestinian leaders should come to the table. Solving the conflict will be even harder than managing it. But talking is the one permanent way out. ■
Thought this commentary from the Economist was a fair assessment of the situation.
 
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T.M.P.

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I'm not sure Twain would agree. Political cartoons, looking at the entire body of work, Including Doonesbury have said plenty about complex problems. Get off your high horse.
Maybe for a lazy minded hillbilly that wants everything condensed into a propaganda poster,

Combatants in WW1 and WW2 used cartons very effectively for that purpose. And people like you ate that shit up.
 
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MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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Maybe for a lazy minded hillbilly that wants everything condensed into a propaganda poster,

Combatants in WW1 and WW2 used cartons very effectively for that purpose. And people like you ate that shit up.
You can’t learn from impressions?



R6705d53ab1954a24507799c5127ca642


Painting and cartoons are often best viewed by smart people. Sorry you were subjected to thoughtful things unexplained to you, and it made you make a dumb blanket statement in public. Take 2 aspirin.
 

JamieDimonsBalls

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First, no one is forcing Israel to bomb schools or hospitals or innocent civilians. That is a choice they are making.

Second, you say Hamas responded to Israeli actions by going lower and this forces Israel to go even lower. Why then do you not conclude that Israel’s initial actions forced Hamas to go low?

This is a complex situation and I would never claim that the Palestinian side is always in the right but as long as Israel continues to occupy their land and attempt to further encroach on Palestinian territory, neither side will live in peace. I won’t claim to have a solution and smarter people than me have tried and failed to get the two sides to come to a compromise, but putting this solely at the feet of the Palestinians completely ignores history.

a two state solution is the only way, but there will never be agreement on the borders for those states.

Israel needs to stop its settlement
 

brianiu

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I'm not sure Twain would agree. Political cartoons, looking at the entire body of work, Including Doonesbury have said plenty about complex problems. Get off your high horse.

Twain took on those with power. I doubt he would be siding with a state that fails to grant equal rights to its Arab citizens. Art can say poignant things about complex issues, but the cartoon in question certainly does not.
 
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Rockport Zebra

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Maybe for a lazy minded hillbilly that wants everything condensed into a propaganda poster,

Combatants in WW1 and WW2 used cartons very effectively for that purpose. And people like you ate that shit up.
Who you calling a hillbily you condescending shit bird. What you know about me?
 
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Rockport Zebra

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Twain took on those with power. I doubt he would be siding with a state that fails to grant equal rights to its Arab citizens. Art can say poignant things about complex issues, but the cartoon in question certainly does not.
In your world then we send all the Jews back to where they came. I don't think that God gave them the land but that train has left the station.
 

brianiu

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In your world then we send all the Jews back to where they came. I don't think that God gave them the land but that train has left the station.
No, what is done is done and it’s far too late to correct all the mistakes of the past. But Palestinians deserve their own homeland and right to govern themselves. Israel must stop taking land. As was mentioned in the article I posted at the top of the page, Israel currently allows for some Jews to reclaim land once owned by their ancestors but does not allow the same for Palestinians.
 

Rockport Zebra

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No, what is done is done and it’s far too late to correct all the mistakes of the past. But Palestinians deserve their own homeland and right to govern themselves. Israel must stop taking land. As was mentioned in the article I posted at the top of the page, Israel currently allows for some Jews to reclaim land once owned by their ancestors but does not allow the same for Palestinians.
"once owned by their ancestors" is a very nice way of rationalizing. Why did they attack now? Don't mess this up because it is really a soft ball slow pitch question.
 

brianiu

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"once owned by their ancestors" is a very nice way of rationalizing. Why did they attack now? Don't mess this up because it is really a soft ball slow pitch question.
I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was referring to this section of the article I posted earlier:

“This disparity in the law is at the heart of a case before Israel’s Supreme Court that is making the atmosphere more febrile. The court is reviewing a judgment to evict Palestinian families from the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood of East Jerusalem. Their homes sit on land that was owned by Jews before Jordan occupied the eastern part of Jerusalem in 1948. Israeli law allows the heirs of the original owners to reclaim property in East Jerusalem. Yet Palestinians cannot claim their former homes in West Jerusalem (or anywhere else in Israel)”

I’m not advocating returning land to either Jews or Palestinians based on ownership from 75 years ago. But the rules should be the same for both sides.
 
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NPT

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As long as Hickory is here you & everyone else is safe...
That says it all... 😁

First, no one is forcing Israel to bomb schools or hospitals or innocent civilians. That is a choice they are making.
No one is forcing Hamas to hide behind hospitals and schools. You really think Israel doesn't know where those rockets are launched from? I'm sure the US probably has satellites that can tell them exactly where they're being launched from.
 
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UncleMark

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No one is forcing Hamas to hide behind hospitals and schools. You really thiny Israel doesn't know where those rockets are launched from? I'm sure the US probably has satellites that can tell them exactly where they're being launched from.

This may be a dumb question but I'm serious -- how in the world is Hamas able to move all these missiles into Gaza? Surely they're not building them there. I would think that between the US and the Israelis there would be enough intelligence capability to stop them en route.
 

NPT

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This may be a dumb question but I'm serious -- how in the world is Hamas able to move all these missiles into Gaza? Surely they're not building them there. I would think that between the US and the Israelis there would be enough intelligence capability to stop them en route.
I would guess smuggled in via sea or Egypt is bringing them in for them. Like you I would think they could stop most but not all brought in via the sea but I don't see how they could stop Egypt from bringing them in.
 

JamieDimonsBalls

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This may be a dumb question but I'm serious -- how in the world is Hamas able to move all these missiles into Gaza? Surely they're not building them there. I would think that between the US and the Israelis there would be enough intelligence capability to stop them en route.

underground tunnels and other transport vehicles from Egypt (Gaza), Lebanon and Syria (WB). It’s possible that they are also put together there and shipped in pieces from Iran.

here’s a recent article:

 
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brianiu

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That says it all... 😁


No one is forcing Hamas to hide behind hospitals and schools. You really think Israel doesn't know where those rockets are launched from? I'm sure the US probably has satellites that can tell them exactly where they're being launched from.
I’m not here to defend Hamas. I know IDF has made claims of bomb installations near schools, hospitals and civilian housing in this conflict which Hamas has denied. Gaza is small and densely populated so I would guess they do have rockets located in proximity to civilians.
 

JamieDimonsBalls

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I’m not here to defend Hamas. I know IDF has made claims of bomb installations near schools, hospitals and civilian housing in this conflict which Hamas has denied. Gaza is small and densely populated so I would guess they do have rockets located in proximity to civilians.
The IDF has provided photographic and videographic evidence.
 

JamieDimonsBalls

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Dumb.

Progressives like to paint the situation as more complex than it is to provide cover for Hamas. Once in a while a Palestinian leader will worry their political future is in jeopardy and launch a few hundred rockets into Israel to divert.

The IDF summarily gives them an ass kicking for a couple weeks until they stop. But it has to be a tactical ass kicking because they build their military bases under hospitals. Hamas on the other hand doesn’t care, they launch rockets indiscriminately.

maybe that clown will appreciate this one better


6PpbBym.png
 

brianiu

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The IDF has provided photographic and videographic evidence.

Yes and Hamas denied it. Not saying the IDF evidence isn’t legit but I haven’t seen it verified by a third party yet, hence why I phrased it the way I did.

As for your latest cartoon, I don’t think we can say Arab citizens have equal rights when Jewish residents are able to reclaim land previously owned by their ancestors, a right not afforded their Palestinian neighbors. I will not attempt to defend the government of Hamas and for that matter, Fatah in the West Bank isn’t any better.
 

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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That says it all... 😁


No one is forcing Hamas to hide behind hospitals and schools. You really think Israel doesn't know where those rockets are launched from? I'm sure the US probably has satellites that can tell them exactly where they're being launched from.
And what brand cigarettes the launchers are smoking

Radical Islamists use women and children as battle fodder.
 

NPT

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Yes and Hamas denied it.
And you believe them? Seriously? Israel warned the place that was supposedly a media center before they bombed them and you can be sure that that allowed Hamas to get some of their equipment out.
 

brianiu

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And you believe them? Seriously? Israel warned the place that was supposedly a media center before they bombed them and you can be sure that that allowed Hamas to get some of their equipment out.
No. I don’t believe either side without third party verification, hence the rest of the post after the sentence you quoted.
 

JamieDimonsBalls

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Yes and Hamas denied it. Not saying the IDF evidence isn’t legit but I haven’t seen it verified by a third party yet, hence why I phrased it the way I did.

As for your latest cartoon, I don’t think we can say Arab citizens have equal rights when Jewish residents are able to reclaim land previously owned by their ancestors, a right not afforded their Palestinian neighbors. I will not attempt to defend the government of Hamas and for that matter, Fatah in the West Bank isn’t any better.

I don't disagree, but the premise is that the people up in arms about the so-called equal rights issues in Palestine are supporting a territory governed by an outspoken socially-conservative organization, particularly as it relates to issues of equality (womens rights, LGBTQ, etc.).
 

brianiu

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I don't disagree, but the premise is that the people up in arms about the so-called equal rights issues in Palestine are supporting a territory governed by an outspoken socially-conservative organization, particularly as it relates to issues of equality (womens rights, LGBTQ, etc.).
I believe Hamas is mostly in power because of the incompetence of Fatah under Abbas but in the Middle East it’s unlikely that any party promoting gay rights and female equality would stand a chance in an election.

According to a survey conducted last year, which I will link if I can find, in many countries, views on honor killings, and gay rights and women rights are trending in the wrong direction, with young people in some of these countries having more hardline views than the older population. Conservatives in the US and Western Europe are much more liberal on these issues than most on the left in the Arab world. I agree that is a problem, but certainly not one for which I have a solution
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I don't disagree, but the premise is that the people up in arms about the so-called equal rights issues in Palestine are supporting a territory governed by an outspoken socially-conservative organization, particularly as it relates to issues of equality (womens rights, LGBTQ, etc.).
The premise is that Arabs enjoy greater human rights under Israel than under Palestinian authority, which is really only true if you subconsciously substitute for "Arabs" "The small subset of Arabs that Israel has graciously allowed to be Israeli citizens." Most Palestinians are not Arab Israeli citizens. Most of them live under an Israeli occupying force, and Israel isn't doing anything for them - nor do they really want to, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing is a mess, and any argument that relies on the assumption that a "good guy" can be found is pretty much BS. It's all bad guys in that situation. The Israeli government is awful. The Palestinian "government" is awful. The people suffer because of it.

Israel is effectively the only Western state set up along religio-ethnic nationalist lines. The entire concept of Israel was a mistake from the beginning. But we placed it smack dab in a region built entirely out of mistakes, so they are just trudging along, the worst possible folks trying to survive in a world surrounded by other worst possible folks.

I hope my pessimism is coming across clearly. I don't see any solution to that nonsense going on over there.
 
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JamieDimonsBalls

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The premise is that Arabs enjoy greater human rights under Israel than under Palestinian authority, which is really only true if you subconsciously substitute for "Arabs" "The small subset of Arabs that Israel has graciously allowed to be Israeli citizens." Most Palestinians are not Arab Israeli citizens. Most of them live under an Israeli occupying force, and Israel isn't doing anything for them - nor do they really want to, for obvious reasons.

The whole thing is a mess, and any argument that relies on the assumption that a "good guy" can be found is pretty much BS. It's all bad guys in that situation. The Israeli government is awful. The Palestinian "government" is awful. The people suffer because of it.

Israel is effectively the only Western state set up along religio-ethnic nationalist lines. The entire concept of Israel was a mistake from the beginning. But we placed it smack dab in a region built entirely out of mistakes, so they are just trudging along, the worst possible folks trying to survive in a world surrounded by other worst possible folks.

I hope my pessimism is coming across clearly. I don't see any solution to that nonsense going on over there.


nobody rational would be optimistic because the only reality would be a two state solution and as I said before, there will never be border agreement.
 

NPT

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I hope my pessimism is coming across clearly. I don't see any solution to that nonsense going on over there.
I don't either.... they've fought for hundred of years in that area and I see it continuing. If Egypt and other Arab countries are so concerned about the Palestinians why didn't they set up a state for them when under their control. I don't know the history of that area very well but I do know that Gaza and that area has not always been under Israeli control.
 
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Spartans9312

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You know it better than I do but the consumer price/inflation numbers raised some eyebrows.

I've heard guys like Buffett saying inflation is something we need to deal with and I've heard that were simply anniversaring (is that a word) last year's pandemic numbers so the variances are going to be goofy for a while but it's nothing to worry about.

Do you think it's concerning, especially with the amount of stimulus spending we've sent out over the past year or just wonky year over year numbers?

I own a fairly large amount of tech stocks and ETFs and my sensational year has just turned into a mediocre year in the last three weeks. Other than inflation I don't see anything that really scares me.

It's almost as if sending nearly every American checks for thousands of dollars has unintended consequences
 

mcmurtry66

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It's almost as if sending nearly every American checks for thousands of dollars has unintended consequences
Biden’s bringing back the 70s!!!

Hopefully all this logistical stuff sorts itself out and prices return to something akin to normal
 
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MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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I don't either.... they've fought for hundred of years in that area and I see it continuing. If Egypt and other Arab countries are so concerned about the Palestinians why didn't they set up a state for them when under their control. I don't know the history of that area very well but I do know that Gaza and that area has not always been under Israeli control.
They did - the worlds largest and longest-standing refugee camps. They care deeply.


dws
 
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Hoopsdoc1978

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UncleMark

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CNN's immediate response was in two parts:

1) Who?
2) He's fired.

Somehow the mouth-breathers can still find a way to turn this into some crime on CNN's part.
I'm sure I probably did business with some douchebags over the years in my past positions. It wasn't my practice to delve into someone's social media when buying his goods or services.

Hell, I even bought a My Pillow a few years back, not knowing about Mike Lindell.