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An examination of the "clean Wehrmacht" myth...

cosmickid

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Oct 23, 2009
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We've discussed Nazi atrocities, what Hitler "got right", and the Holocaust at various points over the past year or so. A few of us have even been shocked to discover that we even have people who could accurately be described as "Holocaust deniers" visiting the board.

So when I came upon this video just now, I thought that it might be interesting to a core group of board members. It's a little long (about 30 mins) but I personally found it eye-opening, and it basically shattered a few misconceptions that I personally might have had regarding what some refer to as the "clean Wehrmacht". I didn't even know that this phenomenon existed or even had a name. It was just something I sort of took for granted...

Put simply, I basically (prior to watching this) held the general belief that atrocities committed by the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2 were mainly from Nazi-oriented units like the SS, Einsatzgruppen, Waffen SS, etc... Like many, I felt that the Wehrmacht itself was largely above the sort of racial/political animosity that led to the wholesale slaughter of "undesirables" like Jews, Russian civilians Russian POWs, etc... The Wehrmacht fought the war on the military side, while the Nazi fanatics who followed in the rear were the murderers...Basically the concept that the Wehrmacht was "clean"...

There wasn't a large deal of research or self-examination of this ideal, even during the time I lived in Germany from 1979-85. But subsequently, it seems to have become a controversial issue as a 1995 exhibit entitled War of Extermination which dealt with atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht from 1941-44 on the Eastern Front, resulted in protests, riots, and even an arson attack when it opened in various German cities.

German WW2 veterans and their relatives were especially inflamed since the Army's actions in the War had largely been viewed as above the fray. In fact, many people actually viewed the Wehrmacht as a victim of the Nazis, a theory prevalent during the war itself and promoted by Donitz in his surrender announcement of 1945. Personally, I found a lot of similarities between the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and the "lost cause" ideology which attempts to remove Slavery as a cause of the Civil War...

But an accidental discovery by German historian Sonke Neitzel in 2001 basically turned the clean Wehrmacht myth on its head. While doing research at the British Archives he came upon thousands of pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between Wehrmacht POWs housed in both an English and an American POW Camp.

These casual conversations of men describing to each other atrocities they either had participated in or had personal knowledge of resulted in a renewed examination of the average German soldier's role in what the Nazis labeled the War of Extermination. The video discusses a couple of studies that have emerged, as well as research into whether or not Hitler was able to basically indoctrinate the Wehrmacht into being the embodiment of his definition of" German warrior" via the various youth programs started as early as 1933. I found it fascinating...

 
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We've discussed Nazi atrocities, what Hitler "got right", and the Holocaust at various points over the past year or so. A few of us have even been shocked to discover that we even have people who could accurately be described as "Holocaust deniers" visiting the board.

So when I came upon this video just now, I thought that it might be interesting to a core group of board members. It's a little long (about 30 mins) but I personally found it eye-opening, and it basically shattered a few misconceptions that I personally might have had regarding what some refer to as the "clean Wehrmacht". I didn't even know that this phenomenon existed or even had a name. It was just something I sort of took for granted...

Put simply, I basically (prior to watching this) held the general belief that atrocities committed by the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2 were mainly from Nazi-oriented units like the SS, Einsatzgruppen, Waffen SS, etc... Like many, I felt that the Wehrmacht itself was largely above the sort of racial/political animosity that led to the wholesale slaughter of "undesirables" like Jews, Russian civilians Russian POWs, etc... The Wehrmacht fought the war on the military side, while the Nazi fanatics who followed in the rear were the murderers...Basically the concept that the Wehrmacht was "clean"...

There wasn't a large deal of research or self-examination of this ideal, even during the time I lived in Germany from 1979-85. But subsequently, it seems to have become a controversial issue as a 1995 exhibit entitled War of Extermination which dealt with atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht from 1941-44 on the Eastern Front, resulted in protests, riots, and even an arson attack when it opened in various German cities.

German WW2 veterans and their relatives were especially inflamed since the Army's actions in the War had largely been viewed as above the fray. In fact, many people actually viewed the Wehrmacht as a victim of the Nazis, a theory prevalent during the war itself and promoted by Donitz in his surrender announcement of 1945. Personally, I found a lot of similarities between the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and the "lost cause" ideology which attempts to remove Slavery as a cause of the Civil War...

But an accidental discovery by German historian Sonke Neitzel in 2001 basically turned the clean Wehrmacht myth on its head. While doing research at the British Archives he came upon thousands of pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between Wehrmacht POWs housed in both an English and an American POW Camp.

These casual conversations of men describing to each other atrocities they either had participated in or had personal knowledge of resulted in a renewed examination of the average German soldier's role in what the Nazis labeled the War of Extermination. The video discusses a couple of studies that have emerged, as well as research into whether or not Hitler was able to basically indoctrinate the Wehrmacht into being the embodiment of his definition of" German warrior" via the various youth programs started as early as 1933. I found it fascinating...

Germany was a major cold war ally. We had a vested interest in trying to confine the blame to just the SS. Of course the Germans had a vested interest.

Certainly not all Wehrmacht were guilty but we have underplayed the amount of dirt.
 
We've discussed Nazi atrocities, what Hitler "got right", and the Holocaust at various points over the past year or so. A few of us have even been shocked to discover that we even have people who could accurately be described as "Holocaust deniers" visiting the board.

So when I came upon this video just now, I thought that it might be interesting to a core group of board members. It's a little long (about 30 mins) but I personally found it eye-opening, and it basically shattered a few misconceptions that I personally might have had regarding what some refer to as the "clean Wehrmacht". I didn't even know that this phenomenon existed or even had a name. It was just something I sort of took for granted...

Put simply, I basically (prior to watching this) held the general belief that atrocities committed by the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2 were mainly from Nazi-oriented units like the SS, Einsatzgruppen, Waffen SS, etc... Like many, I felt that the Wehrmacht itself was largely above the sort of racial/political animosity that led to the wholesale slaughter of "undesirables" like Jews, Russian civilians Russian POWs, etc... The Wehrmacht fought the war on the military side, while the Nazi fanatics who followed in the rear were the murderers...Basically the concept that the Wehrmacht was "clean"...

There wasn't a large deal of research or self-examination of this ideal, even during the time I lived in Germany from 1979-85. But subsequently, it seems to have become a controversial issue as a 1995 exhibit entitled War of Extermination which dealt with atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht from 1941-44 on the Eastern Front, resulted in protests, riots, and even an arson attack when it opened in various German cities.

German WW2 veterans and their relatives were especially inflamed since the Army's actions in the War had largely been viewed as above the fray. In fact, many people actually viewed the Wehrmacht as a victim of the Nazis, a theory prevalent during the war itself and promoted by Donitz in his surrender announcement of 1945. Personally, I found a lot of similarities between the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and the "lost cause" ideology which attempts to remove Slavery as a cause of the Civil War...

But an accidental discovery by German historian Sonke Neitzel in 2001 basically turned the clean Wehrmacht myth on its head. While doing research at the British Archives he came upon thousands of pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between Wehrmacht POWs housed in both an English and an American POW Camp.

These casual conversations of men describing to each other atrocities they either had participated in or had personal knowledge of resulted in a renewed examination of the average German soldier's role in what the Nazis labeled the War of Extermination. The video discusses a couple of studies that have emerged, as well as research into whether or not Hitler was able to basically indoctrinate the Wehrmacht into being the embodiment of his definition of" German warrior" via the various youth programs started as early as 1933. I found it fascinating...

Now do the Bolsheviks!!
 
Now do the Bolsheviks!!
Unintentional irony on your part since one of the factors they used in deciding whether an individual soldier was politically motivated or not was his use of Bolshevik over Russian...

And believe it or not, this is a German video analyzing a German theory, which interests me because I lived in Germany for 6 1/2 yrs...
 
We've discussed Nazi atrocities, what Hitler "got right", and the Holocaust at various points over the past year or so. A few of us have even been shocked to discover that we even have people who could accurately be described as "Holocaust deniers" visiting the board.

So when I came upon this video just now, I thought that it might be interesting to a core group of board members. It's a little long (about 30 mins) but I personally found it eye-opening, and it basically shattered a few misconceptions that I personally might have had regarding what some refer to as the "clean Wehrmacht". I didn't even know that this phenomenon existed or even had a name. It was just something I sort of took for granted...

Put simply, I basically (prior to watching this) held the general belief that atrocities committed by the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2 were mainly from Nazi-oriented units like the SS, Einsatzgruppen, Waffen SS, etc... Like many, I felt that the Wehrmacht itself was largely above the sort of racial/political animosity that led to the wholesale slaughter of "undesirables" like Jews, Russian civilians Russian POWs, etc... The Wehrmacht fought the war on the military side, while the Nazi fanatics who followed in the rear were the murderers...Basically the concept that the Wehrmacht was "clean"...

There wasn't a large deal of research or self-examination of this ideal, even during the time I lived in Germany from 1979-85. But subsequently, it seems to have become a controversial issue as a 1995 exhibit entitled War of Extermination which dealt with atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht from 1941-44 on the Eastern Front, resulted in protests, riots, and even an arson attack when it opened in various German cities.

German WW2 veterans and their relatives were especially inflamed since the Army's actions in the War had largely been viewed as above the fray. In fact, many people actually viewed the Wehrmacht as a victim of the Nazis, a theory prevalent during the war itself and promoted by Donitz in his surrender announcement of 1945. Personally, I found a lot of similarities between the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and the "lost cause" ideology which attempts to remove Slavery as a cause of the Civil War...

But an accidental discovery by German historian Sonke Neitzel in 2001 basically turned the clean Wehrmacht myth on its head. While doing research at the British Archives he came upon thousands of pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between Wehrmacht POWs housed in both an English and an American POW Camp.

These casual conversations of men describing to each other atrocities they either had participated in or had personal knowledge of resulted in a renewed examination of the average German soldier's role in what the Nazis labeled the War of Extermination. The video discusses a couple of studies that have emerged, as well as research into whether or not Hitler was able to basically indoctrinate the Wehrmacht into being the embodiment of his definition of" German warrior" via the various youth programs started as early as 1933. I found it fascinating...

This OP is the equivalent of standing in front of your bathroom mirror, turning off the light, and saying "Mas-a-suta" five times.

Edit: dammit too late.
 
This OP is the equivalent of standing in front of your bathroom mirror, turning off the light, and saying "Mas-a-suta" five times.

Edit: dammit too late.
Well, that's true. But even the controversy in German society is a de facto acknowledgment that the Germans were complicit in war crimes. It's just a disagreement over whether the Nazis were solely to blame, or the Wehrmacht were guilty of their share as well...

And the films recorded by Germans (which the video includes) sort of put the kibosh on Mas's nonsensical defense of Nazisism and Holocaust denial BS. But your point is well taken...I just don't think the rest of us should be held hostage by our resident Nazi...
 
We've discussed Nazi atrocities, what Hitler "got right", and the Holocaust at various points over the past year or so. A few of us have even been shocked to discover that we even have people who could accurately be described as "Holocaust deniers" visiting the board.

So when I came upon this video just now, I thought that it might be interesting to a core group of board members. It's a little long (about 30 mins) but I personally found it eye-opening, and it basically shattered a few misconceptions that I personally might have had regarding what some refer to as the "clean Wehrmacht". I didn't even know that this phenomenon existed or even had a name. It was just something I sort of took for granted...

Put simply, I basically (prior to watching this) held the general belief that atrocities committed by the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2 were mainly from Nazi-oriented units like the SS, Einsatzgruppen, Waffen SS, etc... Like many, I felt that the Wehrmacht itself was largely above the sort of racial/political animosity that led to the wholesale slaughter of "undesirables" like Jews, Russian civilians Russian POWs, etc... The Wehrmacht fought the war on the military side, while the Nazi fanatics who followed in the rear were the murderers...Basically the concept that the Wehrmacht was "clean"...

There wasn't a large deal of research or self-examination of this ideal, even during the time I lived in Germany from 1979-85. But subsequently, it seems to have become a controversial issue as a 1995 exhibit entitled War of Extermination which dealt with atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht from 1941-44 on the Eastern Front, resulted in protests, riots, and even an arson attack when it opened in various German cities.

German WW2 veterans and their relatives were especially inflamed since the Army's actions in the War had largely been viewed as above the fray. In fact, many people actually viewed the Wehrmacht as a victim of the Nazis, a theory prevalent during the war itself and promoted by Donitz in his surrender announcement of 1945. Personally, I found a lot of similarities between the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and the "lost cause" ideology which attempts to remove Slavery as a cause of the Civil War...

But an accidental discovery by German historian Sonke Neitzel in 2001 basically turned the clean Wehrmacht myth on its head. While doing research at the British Archives he came upon thousands of pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between Wehrmacht POWs housed in both an English and an American POW Camp.

These casual conversations of men describing to each other atrocities they either had participated in or had personal knowledge of resulted in a renewed examination of the average German soldier's role in what the Nazis labeled the War of Extermination. The video discusses a couple of studies that have emerged, as well as research into whether or not Hitler was able to basically indoctrinate the Wehrmacht into being the embodiment of his definition of" German warrior" via the various youth programs started as early as 1933. I found it fascinating...

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. If you listen to Dan Carlin's Ghosts of the Osfront, you hear all about these atrocities.


I never thought the Wehrmacht innocent in the atrocities with the Russians but I am familiar with the notion/theory that most of the Wehrmacht were ignorant of the horrors of the concentration camps and genocidal programs. Does this interview discuss that as well?
 
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Well, that's true. But even the controversy in German society is a de facto acknowledgment that the Germans were complicit in war crimes. It's just a disagreement over whether the Nazis were solely to blame, or the Wehrmacht were guilty of their share as well...

And the films recorded by Germans (which the video includes) sort of put the kibosh on Mas's nonsensical defense of Nazisism and Holocaust denial BS. But your point is well taken...I just don't think the rest of us should be held hostage by our resident Nazi...
Just facts, clown.

Unless your job disallows it, look at the posts I've put up here. You seem to have plenty of free time.

Don't think I have defended 'Nazisism'(lol)
by pointing out numerous historical facts about the bloody acts of the Bolsheviks and the American and European Jews who funded them, and stampeded an American
Presidency into involvement in a bloody world War.

I've been called a Nazi AND an Oath Keeper on this board....

Make up your minds , which is it?
 
We've discussed Nazi atrocities, what Hitler "got right", and the Holocaust at various points over the past year or so. A few of us have even been shocked to discover that we even have people who could accurately be described as "Holocaust deniers" visiting the board.

So when I came upon this video just now, I thought that it might be interesting to a core group of board members. It's a little long (about 30 mins) but I personally found it eye-opening, and it basically shattered a few misconceptions that I personally might have had regarding what some refer to as the "clean Wehrmacht". I didn't even know that this phenomenon existed or even had a name. It was just something I sort of took for granted...

Put simply, I basically (prior to watching this) held the general belief that atrocities committed by the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2 were mainly from Nazi-oriented units like the SS, Einsatzgruppen, Waffen SS, etc... Like many, I felt that the Wehrmacht itself was largely above the sort of racial/political animosity that led to the wholesale slaughter of "undesirables" like Jews, Russian civilians Russian POWs, etc... The Wehrmacht fought the war on the military side, while the Nazi fanatics who followed in the rear were the murderers...Basically the concept that the Wehrmacht was "clean"...

There wasn't a large deal of research or self-examination of this ideal, even during the time I lived in Germany from 1979-85. But subsequently, it seems to have become a controversial issue as a 1995 exhibit entitled War of Extermination which dealt with atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht from 1941-44 on the Eastern Front, resulted in protests, riots, and even an arson attack when it opened in various German cities.

German WW2 veterans and their relatives were especially inflamed since the Army's actions in the War had largely been viewed as above the fray. In fact, many people actually viewed the Wehrmacht as a victim of the Nazis, a theory prevalent during the war itself and promoted by Donitz in his surrender announcement of 1945. Personally, I found a lot of similarities between the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and the "lost cause" ideology which attempts to remove Slavery as a cause of the Civil War...

But an accidental discovery by German historian Sonke Neitzel in 2001 basically turned the clean Wehrmacht myth on its head. While doing research at the British Archives he came upon thousands of pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between Wehrmacht POWs housed in both an English and an American POW Camp.

These casual conversations of men describing to each other atrocities they either had participated in or had personal knowledge of resulted in a renewed examination of the average German soldier's role in what the Nazis labeled the War of Extermination. The video discusses a couple of studies that have emerged, as well as research into whether or not Hitler was able to basically indoctrinate the Wehrmacht into being the embodiment of his definition of" German warrior" via the various youth programs started as early as 1933. I found it fascinating...

Cos, appreciate this interesting discussion, but admit I haven't watched the You Tube video as yet.

Wonder if this article captures some of the points made in your video.
 
I've been called a Nazi AND an Oath Keeper on this board....

Make up your minds , which is it?
Are those mutually exclusive? If you think so, why?

I know that you claimed here either during or shortly after the January 6 insurrection that you'd like to have been an Oath Keeper. I don't know why you didn't become one if you were so gung-ho on membership. Were there health requirements that you couldn't meet with your heart condition? Age restrictions?

My guess is that folks have called you a Nazi because of the content of your posts . . . which seem to track beliefs that the Nazi regime in Germany had, and your support of neo-Nazi events like Charlottesville.

Perhaps Nazi is the wrong moniker and is used more out of not knowing what you would claim to be than accuracy . . . would you agree that you are a Nazi? A fascist?
 
Are those mutually exclusive? If you think so, why?

I know that you claimed here either during or shortly after the January 6 insurrection that you'd like to have been an Oath Keeper. I don't know why you didn't become one if you were so gung-ho on membership. Were there health requirements that you couldn't meet with your heart condition? Age restrictions?

My guess is that folks have called you a Nazi because of the content of your posts . . . which seem to track beliefs that the Nazi regime in Germany had, and your support of neo-Nazi events like Charlottesville.

Perhaps Nazi is the wrong moniker and is used more out of not knowing what you would claim to be than accuracy . . . would you agree that you are a Nazi? A fascist?
I don't recall any post wherein I stated 'I'd like to have been an Oath Keeper'..

The fascists are sitting in the federal seats of power for now, so by disassociation from so-called 'progressives'(fascists), that label doesn't work. As the term 'nazi' was coined by jews as a pejorative for the German National Socialists, that one doesn't fit either.

Oath Keepers pledge to honor oaths to support our Constitution. Police, military veterans and EMTs make up the qualifiers to be awarded membership.

Most of them would be supporters of our Constitutional Republic. They would be called Patriots.
 
I don't recall any post wherein I stated 'I'd like to have been an Oath Keeper'..

The fascists are sitting in the federal seats of power for now, so by disassociation from so-called 'progressives'(fascists), that label doesn't work. As the term 'nazi' was coined by jews as a pejorative for the German National Socialists, that one doesn't fit either.

Oath Keepers pledge to honor oaths to support our Constitution. Police, military veterans and EMTs make up the qualifiers to be awarded membership.

Most of them would be supporters of our Constitutional Republic. They would be called Patriots.
You keep referring to what Oath Keepers “would be called”. Maybe in theory, but they’re currently called traitors. Just sayin.
 
I just don't care to go back to January 6 for proof of something you ought to know you said and ought to have the integrity to admit.
Never said it. You have been asked to demonstrate where I said it.

You don't establish my integrity.
 
I just don't care to go back to January 6 for proof of something you ought to know you said and ought to have the integrity to admit.

Sope, I remember Mas expressing admiration for OKs. Actually remember him saying he would not join a militia.

Found it.


Trump's Legacy

No plans to join any militia. If I were a joiner, it would likely be Oath Keepers.
 
Yes. Unfortunately.

SMH
Where is the quote where I said " I'd like to have been an Oath Keeper?"

The post says, " I'm not a joiner."

Soap Geek doubles down by asking if I was too old or a medical condition prevented my acceptance to OK.....

Just like 'progressive media: start with a small lie by misstatements, then embellish that narrative to cover up the original lie.
 
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Are those mutually exclusive? If you think so, why?

I know that you claimed here either during or shortly after the January 6 insurrection that you'd like to have been an Oath Keeper. I don't know why you didn't become one if you were so gung-ho on membership. Were there health requirements that you couldn't meet with your heart condition? Age restrictions?

My guess is that folks have called you a Nazi because of the content of your posts . . . which seem to track beliefs that the Nazi regime in Germany had, and your support of neo-Nazi events like Charlottesville.

Perhaps Nazi is the wrong moniker and is used more out of not knowing what you would claim to be than accuracy . . . would you agree that you are a Nazi? A fascist?
While you are enjoying your crow luncheon, ask your turtle to find my post regarding my support for "events like Charlottesville, "
You seem to thrive on false accusations.
 
While you are enjoying your crow luncheon, ask your turtle to find my post regarding my support for "events like Charlottesville, "
You seem to thrive on false accusations.

No worries, your savior and grace said there were fine people on both sides ;)
 
Sope, I remember Mas expressing admiration for OKs. Actually remember him saying he would not join a militia.

Found it.

Trump's Legacy

No plans to join any militia. If I were a joiner, it would likely be Oath Keepers.
I remembered it too. Hard to believe he didn't seem to recall expressing affinity for a militia that turned out to be central to the Jan 6 invasion of the Capitol.
 
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