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Allen bashing continuing...Please enough!

IndyIUFan66

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Jun 23, 2013
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People get nutty, but my gosh, give Allen year two before trying to put nails in coffin.

His first year was 5-7 but wheels did not fall off. 3 disappointing winnable games, but no blowouts, solid D and just a young, injured and not as solid O last year.

But since the loss:
-Nailed the initial recruiting signing period (with a LOT of hustle/travel to lock them down)
-Has added Grad Transfer OL from Miami & Husky from Ga Tech w/3 yrs left
-Added an excellent new S&C Coach who looks as state of the art as our weight room facilities
-Added a rising new LB coach and committed to a full-time special teams coach
-Showing his committment with a Scholly punter last season & All-American K this year
-Has focus for the program & season ahead: #Finish (as they were so close last year)
-Still to see but bet they land a good 2-3 more recruits on final signing day
-Has team underway now with winter training (under the new S&C coach he made change on)

What from all of that above shows a coach that is not focused, determined and with a plan? Our biggest weakness was offense, and the O-line will be all year older, bigger w/2 new recruits and a grad transfer to add more competition. Have 4 Top WR's retruning. A new 3-4 star RB here in Jan. And a 4-star QB also here in Jan.

Defense lost some good players, but a lot of players still returning, especially in backfield where we may have perhaps IU's most athletic (and bigger) DB's as a whole in a long time. Top pass rusher is returning. Stud DE from FL on campus in Jan for spring too.

It's all other B10 teams are making huge leaps and bounds while IU is staying static! Adding new S&C coach alone may be huge payoff staring this spring and carrying on into next year, with less injuries or quicker returns back. More competition and most positions. New F/T LB coach for that big need to fill. And further focus on S/Teams with full time coordinator with fantastic 2nd year punter and blue chip FR kicker. And the schedule is MUCH more favorable than this season.

Still saying 7-5 is likely, and there is a path to 8 or 9 wins if they execute and have little luck too.

That's my case for big year next year, or at least one on the right track!
 
Most people expect a bowl team next year as an absolute minimum. I agree there is a path to 8 wins and an excellent chance to execute.

That being said, we say the same things every winter. Next season is Put Up or Shut Up time. No more #hashtags. No more flashy videos.

Just. Win.
 
If anything, next year is a rebuilding year - on the D certainly. Next year is year 2 for him....Wilson got 6 years and didn't match Allen's first year record until his 3rd. (Playing a MUCH tougher schedule.) He will be here for awhile, so just ignore anyone bashing him.
 
Defense wins ball games, but offense is what gets fans excited. That's one reason I think people were as optimistic about Wilson, and also why they were as forgiving about the breakdowns and blunders. Right now the offense is a question mark. If we can get that working, then we can get optimistic once again.
 
People get nutty, but my gosh, give Allen year two before trying to put nails in coffin.

His first year was 5-7 but wheels did not fall off. 3 disappointing winnable games, but no blowouts, solid D and just a young, injured and not as solid O last year.

But since the loss:
-Nailed the initial recruiting signing period (with a LOT of hustle/travel to lock them down)
-Has added Grad Transfer OL from Miami & Husky from Ga Tech w/3 yrs left
-Added an excellent new S&C Coach who looks as state of the art as our weight room facilities
-Added a rising new LB coach and committed to a full-time special teams coach
-Showing his committment with a Scholly punter last season & All-American K this year
-Has focus for the program & season ahead: #Finish (as they were so close last year)
-Still to see but bet they land a good 2-3 more recruits on final signing day
-Has team underway now with winter training (under the new S&C coach he made change on)

What from all of that above shows a coach that is not focused, determined and with a plan? Our biggest weakness was offense, and the O-line will be all year older, bigger w/2 new recruits and a grad transfer to add more competition. Have 4 Top WR's retruning. A new 3-4 star RB here in Jan. And a 4-star QB also here in Jan.

Defense lost some good players, but a lot of players still returning, especially in backfield where we may have perhaps IU's most athletic (and bigger) DB's as a whole in a long time. Top pass rusher is returning. Stud DE from FL on campus in Jan for spring too.

It's all other B10 teams are making huge leaps and bounds while IU is staying static! Adding new S&C coach alone may be huge payoff staring this spring and carrying on into next year, with less injuries or quicker returns back. More competition and most positions. New F/T LB coach for that big need to fill. And further focus on S/Teams with full time coordinator with fantastic 2nd year punter and blue chip FR kicker. And the schedule is MUCH more favorable than this season.

Still saying 7-5 is likely, and there is a path to 8 or 9 wins if they execute and have little luck too.

That's my case for big year next year, or at least one on the right track!
I think that 4-8 is realistic. I wouldn’t be shocked if they win anywhere between 4-7 games. It’s a wide margin, but realistic because the offensive line is unknown. But as you said, you have to role with Allen at this point. I’ve said it before, unless he gives obvious signs that he can’t coach, you have to give him around 4-5 years minimum to build the program the way he sees fit. I agree that it would be nutty to call for his head.

Some fans think that if they get an established coach, things will just instantly turn around. That is rare. It takes time no matter who you have, and going from one coach to the next doesn’t solve the issue, but increases the time that it takes for the program to be stable. It sets a program back. I think that it’s healthy to be skeptical of Allen, but there are no obvious signs that he should be gone anytime soon. 4-5 years minimum.
 
I think that 4-8 is realistic. I wouldn’t be shocked if they win anywhere between 4-7 games. It’s a wide margin, but realistic because the offensive line is unknown. But as you said, you have to role with Allen at this point. I’ve said it before, unless he gives obvious signs that he can’t coach, you have to give him around 4-5 years minimum to build the program the way he sees fit. I agree that it would be nutty to call for his head.

Some fans think that if they get an established coach, things will just instantly turn around. That is rare. It takes time no matter who you have, and going from one coach to the next doesn’t solve the issue, but increases the time that it takes for the program to be stable. It sets a program back. I think that it’s healthy to be skeptical of Allen, but there are no obvious signs that he should be gone anytime soon. 4-5 years minimum.
First where was the OP reading that anyone was bashing CTA? I must have missed that...

4-5 years is far too long. Allen was given a team that had already been rebuilt and the cupboard was far from empty when he took over. As a matter of fact there was depth at every single position across the board except QB. Its not like the team was in the basement every year prior to him getting here. It was actually and should have been a 7-8 win team a couple those years with the losses pissed away by Wilson. I'm not buying the O-line stuff spewed on this board either we have an extremely experienced O-line coach in Hiller and had plenty of 3 start talent to run with. The guy has put 20 guys in the league. He and DeBoard have an entire offseason to figure out blocking schemes to go with types of offense to run. Last years offense IMO was as bland and uncreative as you can get.

With next years schedule and a new S&C coach (a reason we struggled late in games last year IMO) we should be in a much better position to go bowling. If not then we really have taken a step back and it's NOT a good step.
 
I think that 4-8 is realistic. I wouldn’t be shocked if they win anywhere between 4-7 games. It’s a wide margin, but realistic because the offensive line is unknown. But as you said, you have to role with Allen at this point. I’ve said it before, unless he gives obvious signs that he can’t coach, you have to give him around 4-5 years minimum to build the program the way he sees fit. I agree that it would be nutty to call for his head.

Some fans think that if they get an established coach, things will just instantly turn around. That is rare. It takes time no matter who you have, and going from one coach to the next doesn’t solve the issue, but increases the time that it takes for the program to be stable. It sets a program back. I think that it’s healthy to be skeptical of Allen, but there are no obvious signs that he should be gone anytime soon. 4-5 years minimum.
This is a loser's mentality. No thank you.
 
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Defense wins ball games, but offense is what gets fans excited. That's one reason I think people were as optimistic about Wilson, and also why they were as forgiving about the breakdowns and blunders. Right now the offense is a question mark. If we can get that working, then we can get optimistic once again.
I don't know. After watching IU's defense the past two years, I'm more optimistic about the program now than I was during the previous five seasons.

Wilson had two Top 15 offenses (nationally) at IU but was unable to produce a winning season. Every game was an adventure and no lead was safe.

I'm not bashing Wilson. He's obviously an excellent OC and his teams score points. But because our defense was so abysmal throughout his IU tenure (until Allen came to town), we couldn't close the deal against quality conference opponents and lost to teams like Bowling Green and Ball State, even with that great O.

Fast forward to today. Sure, we've got to do a better job of putting points on the board but the days of having to score 40+ points, just to have a chance at winning, are over. I know we lost some key guys on D, but I'm confident Allen's got more than enough to work with to produce a quality D again. With respect to the offense, and as the original poster pointed out, we've got talented skill players. If the OL improves (and I realize it's a big "if," but Linder should provide immediate help, both in play and in leadership, and we can expect at least some developmental growth up and down the line) and we get consistently good play at QB, the 2018 Hoosiers may surprise.
 
Defense wins ball games, but offense is what gets fans excited. That's one reason I think people were as optimistic about Wilson, and also why they were as forgiving about the breakdowns and blunders. Right now the offense is a question mark. If we can get that working, then we can get optimistic once again.
That’s true. Wilson would’ve had the same issue on offense however, considering the offense trended downward in 16’ pretty severely. So Wilson gave some solid years. Had about 3 really good offensive years, but
First where was the OP reading that anyone was bashing CTA? I must have missed that...

4-5 years is far too long. Allen was given a team that had already been rebuilt and the cupboard was far from empty when he took over. As a matter of fact there was depth at every single position across the board except QB. Its not like the team was in the basement every year prior to him getting here. It was actually and should have been a 7-8 win team a couple those years with the losses pissed away by Wilson. I'm not buying the O-line stuff spewed on this board either we have an extremely experienced O-line coach in Hiller and had plenty of 3 start talent to run with. The guy has put 20 guys in the league. He and DeBoard have an entire offseason to figure out blocking schemes to go with types of offense to run. Last years offense IMO was as bland and uncreative as you can get.

With next years schedule and a new S&C coach (a reason we struggled late in games last year IMO) we should be in a much better position to go bowling. If not then we really have taken a step back and it's NOT a good step.
I agree with most of what you’re saying besides whether or not the team is as talented as you claimed. Where we specifically disagree is on how good the offensive line is. If I recall, none of the guys who went out there this season were proven Big Ten lineman. Knight, as has been mentioned, had his best season as a Tight end. There was no player who was close to as experienced as the guys that we lost. So yes, I wouldn’t be shocked if it took 4-5 years to bring in a completely different roster of lineman and win. The program did take a step back IMHO the day the entire offensive line group from 15’ and 16’ left. The guys who were set to replace the core lineman haven’t shown that they’re Big Ten football players. They look like a MAC line, at best. I’m hopeful that they improve. I saw Colorado in 16’ improve dramatically with the SAME guys as the years they were winning 1 game. A new stregnth coach helps, and I liked the hire.

But if you think about it. If many lineman aren’t fully developed until they’re seniors/redshirt Juniors, then I can see it definitely being realistic that we are 4-5 years off from being a 8-9 win team. We could definitely miss a bowl for the next 3 years and then take a rapid jump due to player development in 4 years. If we went 5-7 and below each of the next 3 years, and then jumped to 9 wins in year 4 and then consistently competed for Big Ten titles after that, wouldn’t it be worth keeping Allen? Because that’s a realistic scenario.
 
That’s true. Wilson would’ve had the same issue on offense however, considering the offense trended downward in 16’ pretty severely. So Wilson gave some solid years. Had about 3 really good offensive years, but

I agree with most of what you’re saying besides whether or not the team is as talented as you claimed. Where we specifically disagree is on how good the offensive line is. If I recall, none of the guys who went out there this season were proven Big Ten lineman. Knight, as has been mentioned, had his best season as a Tight end. There was no player who was close to as experienced as the guys that we lost. So yes, I wouldn’t be shocked if it took 4-5 years to bring in a completely different roster of lineman and win. The program did take a step back IMHO the day the entire offensive line group from 15’ and 16’ left. The guys who were set to replace the core lineman haven’t shown that they’re Big Ten football players. They look like a MAC line, at best. I’m hopeful that they improve. I saw Colorado in 16’ improve dramatically with the SAME guys as the years they were winning 1 game. A new stregnth coach helps, and I liked the hire.
But if you think about it. If many lineman aren’t fully developed until they’re seniors/redshirt Juniors, then I can see it definitely being realistic that we are 4-5 years off from being a 8-9 win team. We could definitely miss a bowl for the next 3 years and then take a rapid jump due to player development in 4 years. If we went 5-7 and below each of the next 3 years, and then jumped to 9 wins in year 4 and then consistently competed for Big Ten titles after that, wouldn’t it be worth keeping Allen? Because that’s a realistic scenario.
No way man on the 4-5 years...Colorado, and btw I came to this board via Colorado coz I live in indy now and the Buffs moved to the Pac. Still a fan but the luster isn't what it was. Colorado had 13 O-lineman when MMac was hired and 2 were on IR. They could not even field 2 lines for the spring game and had to do situational stuff. The cupboard was completely bare and a joke. Mac played all those kids as True Freshman including Sefo the QB. Thats how they made such a strong run in 2016 but his seat is HOT right now and unless they win again he will be gone and they have a power AD in Rick George who WILL pony up!

Completely different situation here at IU
Nworah 3*
Love 3*
Cronk 3*
Stover 3*
Crider 3*
Friend 3*
Trainor 2*
Knight 3*
Smith 3*
Littlejohn 3*
Baker 3*
Stepaniak 3*
Knight 3*
Martin 3*
Beery 3*
Jones 3*
Linder GT

Thats plenty of good bodies to get the job done! Do your job Hiller!!!!!

No Excuses!
 
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If we have a losing season in 2018 then the heat should be on Allen. He hyped up 2017 as a breakthrough year and we got the same old same old. Another bad season and recruiting will become even more difficult.
 
If we have a losing season in 2018 then the heat should be on Allen. He hyped up 2017 as a breakthrough year and we got the same old same old. Another bad season and recruiting will become even more difficult.
Well, according to some, we should be satisfied with a losing season for as much 4 or more years. Ridiculous huh? Bowl or bust. Hot seat for anything less than 6 wins.
 
No way man on the 4-5 years...Colorado, and btw I came to this board via Colorado coz I live in indy now and the Buffs moved to the Pac. Still a fan but the luster isn't what it was. Colorado had 13 O-lineman when MMac was hired and 2 were on IR. They could not even field 2 lines for the spring game and had to do situational stuff. The cupboard was completely bare and a joke. Mac played all those kids as True Freshman including Sefo the QB. Thats how they made such a strong run in 2016 but his seat is HOT right now and unless they win again he will be gone and they have a power AD in Rick George who WILL pony up!

Completely different situation here at IU
Nworah 3*
Love 3*
Cronk 3*
Stover 3*
Crider 3*
Friend 3*
Trainor 2*
Knight 3*
Smith 3*
Littlejohn 3*
Baker 3*
Stepaniak 3*
Knight 3*
Martin 3*
Beery 3*
Jones 3*
Linder GT

Thats plenty of good bodies to get the job done! Do your job Hiller!!!!!

No Excuses!
The part you miss is the schedule IU has in the B1G East. Colorado wasn't going up against the beast that IU does. You also miss that IU has OL talent but young talent without much B1G playing experience in 2017. Now with the experience and returning OL players yes the should be good as Hiller has developed NFL players at a greater rate than Frey did. I would give Allen through 2019 because the roster should be at its strongest point then. The roster wasn't bare in 2017 but offensively it was severely depleted due to three years of declining recruiting classes and no OL being on the team from the 2013 or 2014 recruiting classes. Add in the QB group having a JC senior who threw 17 INTs, a junior that never panned out, a red-shirt freshman, and a true freshman as options. That doesn't lead to much success against B1G talent.
 
If we have a losing season in 2018 then the heat should be on Allen. He hyped up 2017 as a breakthrough year and we got the same old same old. Another bad season and recruiting will become even more difficult.
Another missed bowl and Allen will be gone. We can’t let Purdue absolutely embarrass us like this. It’s unacceptable.
 
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The part you miss is the schedule IU has in the B1G East. Colorado wasn't going up against the beast that IU does. You also miss that IU has OL talent but young talent without much B1G playing experience in 2017. Now with the experience and returning OL players yes the should be good as Hiller has developed NFL players at a greater rate than Frey did. I would give Allen through 2019 because the roster should be at its strongest point then. The roster wasn't bare in 2017 but offensively it was severely depleted due to three years of declining recruiting classes and no OL being on the team from the 2013 or 2014 recruiting classes. Add in the QB group having a JC senior who threw 17 INTs, a junior that never panned out, a red-shirt freshman, and a true freshman as options. That doesn't lead to much success against B1G talent.
The Pac is not an easy league...Completely different animal but different skill set for sure...speed speed speed in the Pac and high octane offenses. Colorado benefited from guys that played as true freshman and were either junior or senior, also a new S&C but Jim Leavitt transformed the Buffs on D. But they had the Sh!t kicked out of them for 3 straight years and had enough! They had the roster and were ready!

IU has a lot of talent sitting there already and has a ton of guys on the OL compared t what CU had so thats a bad comparison! What made Frey good was zone blocking which Hiller has done and many other schemes as well. At the beginning of last year we had over 20 guys the roster on the OL and I already pointed out the star ratings. Then we line up against the first few opponents and did we try and zone block, NO, cut back NO, it was all A or B gap stuff and was forced. Pencil in a QB who could run the option read till he was blue in the face with great fake efforts but everyone knew he was not gonna go! So do we line up under center because of Lagows weakness and play action...F*ck No!

The seat gets hot after this year. Get creative and go with your strengths or get a QB that can run that read option and sell a fake and take off when the DE bites. We ran an offense with Lagow that was just f*ckin stupid! You don't run a read option with a QB that can't run!
 
The Pac is not an easy league...Completely different animal but different skill set for sure...speed speed speed in the Pac and high octane offenses. Colorado benefited from guys that played as true freshman and were either junior or senior, also a new S&C but Jim Leavitt transformed the Buffs on D. But they had the Sh!t kicked out of them for 3 straight years and had enough! They had the roster and were ready!

IU has a lot of talent sitting there already and has a ton of guys on the OL compared t what CU had so thats a bad comparison! What made Frey good was zone blocking which Hiller has done and many other schemes as well. At the beginning of last year we had over 20 guys the roster on the OL and I already pointed out the star ratings. Then we line up against the first few opponents and did we try and zone block, NO, cut back NO, it was all A or B gap stuff and was forced. Pencil in a QB who could run the option read till he was blue in the face with great fake efforts but everyone knew he was not gonna go! So do we line up under center because of Lagows weakness and play action...F*ck No!

The seat gets hot after this year. Get creative and go with your strengths or get a QB that can run that read option and sell a fake and take off when the DE bites. We ran an offense with Lagow that was just f*ckin stupid! You don't run a read option with a QB that can't run!
I looked at almost every play and there was a lot of inside zone/outside zone. When I was at IU we also ran out of power, which IU tried this past year. There were literally a lot of the same plays, just different players.

I’ll Be honest man. We faced a lot of the guys you mentioned every day in practice and they simply weren’t good, which is why I don’t look at star ratings. Baker being rated higher than Spriggs is a profile in why I’d be skeptical of ratings. Your list kind of hurts your own argument if you look at the guys who played under Wilson and CTA.

Knight- only good year was at a Tight end. Struggled at tackle under Wilson and CTA.

Cronk- gave up a lot of pressure in his two years. Was a freshman all-American, but gave up a ton of pressures. May have only been a freshman all American because most freshman tackles aren’t starting. Camiel went down with injury.

Baker- has performed badly each of his seasons. That’s under CKW and CTA.

Martin- lost his job to Bailey the prior two years to him being the full time guy. That’s suspect.

I can go down the list, but based off of how guys have actually performed in their time at IU, there’s no evidence that they’re much better than the Colorado lines. All the star rankings show is that they can be wrong, and it highlights why Iowa and Wisconsin build great lines without following star rankings. I’m not pulling it out of my hat that I’d give CTA 4-5 years. I’m literally saying this based on film/having faced half of these guys on a daily basis. I would legitimately say that the offensive line is in a rebuilding mode. If it took 4, 5 or even 6 years to build the situation, I’d stick by CTA. I think that you’re overestimating the line based on star ratings and not the actual players/performance of those players.

I want to highlight that they’re all good guys so that’s not easy stuff to say. I really like Baker, Martin, Love ect. Those guys are a Awesome. But I’m also a realist. I haven’t seen anything that says they can play. I hope that they improve. I hope that they all play at a high level. I hope that more than anyone besides them and their families haha. But I’m just being a realist. The ratings really don’t matter, and Baker being rated higher than Spriggs, or stepniak having a similar rating and better offers than Feeney kinda prove that.

Let’s put it this way. IF these guys are really bad. Then it could realistically take CTA 4,5 or 6 years to build this program up. And there’s no evidence that they aren’t really bad besides arbitrary start rankings of lineman.
 
People get nutty, but my gosh, give Allen year two before trying to put nails in coffin.

His first year was 5-7 but wheels did not fall off. 3 disappointing winnable games, but no blowouts, solid D and just a young, injured and not as solid O last year.

But since the loss:
-Nailed the initial recruiting signing period (with a LOT of hustle/travel to lock them down)
-Has added Grad Transfer OL from Miami & Husky from Ga Tech w/3 yrs left
-Added an excellent new S&C Coach who looks as state of the art as our weight room facilities
-Added a rising new LB coach and committed to a full-time special teams coach
-Showing his committment with a Scholly punter last season & All-American K this year
-Has focus for the program & season ahead: #Finish (as they were so close last year)
-Still to see but bet they land a good 2-3 more recruits on final signing day
-Has team underway now with winter training (under the new S&C coach he made change on)

What from all of that above shows a coach that is not focused, determined and with a plan? Our biggest weakness was offense, and the O-line will be all year older, bigger w/2 new recruits and a grad transfer to add more competition. Have 4 Top WR's retruning. A new 3-4 star RB here in Jan. And a 4-star QB also here in Jan.

Defense lost some good players, but a lot of players still returning, especially in backfield where we may have perhaps IU's most athletic (and bigger) DB's as a whole in a long time. Top pass rusher is returning. Stud DE from FL on campus in Jan for spring too.

It's all other B10 teams are making huge leaps and bounds while IU is staying static! Adding new S&C coach alone may be huge payoff staring this spring and carrying on into next year, with less injuries or quicker returns back. More competition and most positions. New F/T LB coach for that big need to fill. And further focus on S/Teams with full time coordinator with fantastic 2nd year punter and blue chip FR kicker. And the schedule is MUCH more favorable than this season.

Still saying 7-5 is likely, and there is a path to 8 or 9 wins if they execute and have little luck too.

That's my case for big year next year, or at least one on the right track!




I love targeted transfer recruiting of guys like Roof and Lindner.
 
I looked at almost every play and there was a lot of inside zone/outside zone. When I was at IU we also ran out of power, which IU tried this past year. There were literally a lot of the same plays, just different players.

I’ll Be honest man. We faced a lot of the guys you mentioned every day in practice and they simply weren’t good, which is why I don’t look at star ratings. Baker being rated higher than Spriggs is a profile in why I’d be skeptical of ratings. Your list kind of hurts your own argument if you look at the guys who played under Wilson and CTA.

Knight- only good year was at a Tight end. Struggled at tackle under Wilson and CTA.

Cronk- gave up a lot of pressure in his two years. Was a freshman all-American, but gave up a ton of pressures. May have only been a freshman all American because most freshman tackles aren’t starting. Camiel went down with injury.

Baker- has performed badly each of his seasons. That’s under CKW and CTA.

Martin- lost his job to Bailey the prior two years to him being the full time guy. That’s suspect.

I can go down the list, but based off of how guys have actually performed in their time at IU, there’s no evidence that they’re much better than the Colorado lines. All the star rankings show is that they can be wrong, and it highlights why Iowa and Wisconsin build great lines without following star rankings. I’m not pulling it out of my hat that I’d give CTA 4-5 years. I’m literally saying this based on film/having faced half of these guys on a daily basis. I would legitimately say that the offensive line is in a rebuilding mode. If it took 4, 5 or even 6 years to build the situation, I’d stick by CTA. I think that you’re overestimating the line based on star ratings and not the actual players/performance of those players.

I want to highlight that they’re all good guys so that’s not easy stuff to say. I really like Baker, Martin, Love ect. Those guys are a Awesome. But I’m also a realist. I haven’t seen anything that says they can play. I hope that they improve. I hope that they all play at a high level. I hope that more than anyone besides them and their families haha. But I’m just being a realist. The ratings really don’t matter, and Baker being rated higher than Spriggs, or stepniak having a similar rating and better offers than Feeney kinda prove that.

Let’s put it this way. IF these guys are really bad. Then it could realistically take CTA 4,5 or 6 years to build this program up. And there’s no evidence that they aren’t really bad besides arbitrary start rankings of lineman.

I'm not disregarding all your comments. I'm just saying it shouldn't take that long. If the line needed that much rebuilding we would have taken 5 or 6 OL this cycle and went after more juco's and grad transfers too fix the issue.

Also we have a 20 YEAR experienced O-line coach. Don't disregard that. Add to it DeBoard with PLENTY of experience. I loved the hires Hiller and DeBoard when CTA made them.

However the honeymoon is over. Our last date (Wilson) took us to New York over the holidays and then San Francisco the year after. (Me Likey) Last year we got 2 straight lumps of coal a Purdue loss and a stay at home, boring a$$ vacation in December. I like traveling in December and January around the holidays baby so you better start producing or Ima start looking around for a hottie that can take me places. :)
 
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I'm not disregarding all your comments. I'm just saying it shouldn't take that long. If the line needed that much rebuilding we would have taken 5 or 6 OL this cycle and went after more juco's and grad transfers too fix the issue.

Also we have a 20 YEAR experienced O-line coach. Don't disregard that. Add to it DeBoard with PLENTY of experience. I loved the hires Hiller and DeBoard when CTA made them.

However the honeymoon is over. Our last date (Wilson) took us to New York over the holidays and then San Francisco the year after. (Me Likey) Last year we got 2 straight lumps of coal a Purdue loss and a stay at home, boring a$$ vacation in December. I like traveling in December and January around the holidays baby so you better start producing or Ima start looking around for a hottie that can take me places. :)
When you recruit, you have to replace what you're losing first. If you have a roster already full of O-linemen, you would be leaving a lot of other positions severely short-handed if you spent schollies on 5 or 6 more.

Outside of QB (and maybe not even there) the O-line is the worst place in football to be inexperienced. The position not only requires physical maturity, it is cerebral and technical as well. It also requires 5 (sometimes 6) guys to be perfectly in sync. The fact that we had so many young guys there the last two years is squarely on KW and Frey. Let's see how this group improves before we blame the coaches who inherited them for not coaching well enough.
 
When you recruit, you have to replace what you're losing first. If you have a roster already full of O-linemen, you would be leaving a lot of other positions severely short-handed if you spent schollies on 5 or 6 more.

Outside of QB (and maybe not even there) the O-line is the worst place in football to be inexperienced. The position not only requires physical maturity, it is cerebral and technical as well. It also requires 5 (sometimes 6) guys to be perfectly in sync. The fact that we had so many young guys there the last two years is squarely on KW and Frey. Let's see how this group improves before we blame the coaches who inherited them for not coaching well enough.
If theres that many bad o-lineman on this roster then you simply pull them aside and have the "son you may want to look into other opportunities talk" and open spots up. SEE o-lineman transfers Tons. We took 3 this cycle EDIT 2 count em 2 and 1 grad transfer...There may be more idk. So maybe we are spinning our wheels with this conversation. I would think if it was problem we would have looked into more juco possibles that are older.

Theres nothing according to the way we recruited that lead me to believe the coaches think this O-Line debate is an issue.

Also IMO you need about 8 guys to have it together and they should all be comfortable moving around some. So maybe all the 3 star lineman we grabbed were all overrated and have low ceilings? Did Frey really let it drop off that bad...I can understand a couple down years but cmon man they way we were playing leads me to believe there are some good guys in this group they just need to be developed...Well thats 2 straight down years of poor OL play. I'm not willing to concede a 3rd.
 
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If theres that many bad o-lineman on this roster then you simply pull them aside and have the "son you may want to look into other opportunities talk" and open spots up. SEE o-lineman transfers Tons. We took 3 this cycle EDIT 2 count em 2 and 1 grad transfer...There may be more idk. So maybe we are spinning our wheels with this conversation. I would think if it was problem we would have looked into more juco possibles that are older.

Theres nothing according to the way we recruited that lead me to believe the coaches think this O-Line debate is an issue.

Also IMO you need about 8 guys to have it together and they should all be comfortable moving around some. So maybe all the 3 star lineman we grabbed were all overrated and have low ceilings? Did Frey really let it drop off that bad...I can understand a couple down years but cmon man they way we were playing leads me to believe there are some good guys in this group they just need to be developed...Well thats 2 straight down years of poor OL play. I'm not willing to concede a 3rd.
That's my point. I think the staff believes with good reason that another year of physical maturity, experience, and playing together will result in a much better position group this year. The root of the problem is that several of the guys who were starting the past two years should have been redshirting or playing limited snaps behind established upperclassmen to gain experience. That is on the previous staff, not the current one.
 
The only thing thing that embarrasses most of us is statements like this one ^^^^^ and the person who wrote it.
The only thing thing that embarrasses most of us is statements like this one ^^^^^ and the person who wrote it.
Fpeaugh is a guerilla fighter who likes to launch a short obnoxious stab and then wait for a reaction. He is just having fun at the board's expense.
 
Defense wins ball games, but offense is what gets fans excited. That's one reason I think people were as optimistic about Wilson, and also why they were as forgiving about the breakdowns and blunders. Right now the offense is a question mark. If we can get that working, then we can get optimistic once again.
All that shows is that our fans are morons. Name one other fan base in the country that would whine about having a good defense instead of a high flying offense.

And again, we scored more points and played at a faster pace this past year than Wilson’s last offense. Do people actually watch the games?
 
If theres that many bad o-lineman on this roster then you simply pull them aside and have the "son you may want to look into other opportunities talk" and open spots up. SEE o-lineman transfers Tons. We took 3 this cycle EDIT 2 count em 2 and 1 grad transfer...There may be more idk. So maybe we are spinning our wheels with this conversation. I would think if it was problem we would have looked into more juco possibles that are older.

Theres nothing according to the way we recruited that lead me to believe the coaches think this O-Line debate is an issue.

Also IMO you need about 8 guys to have it together and they should all be comfortable moving around some. So maybe all the 3 star lineman we grabbed were all overrated and have low ceilings? Did Frey really let it drop off that bad...I can understand a couple down years but cmon man they way we were playing leads me to believe there are some good guys in this group they just need to be developed...Well thats 2 straight down years of poor OL play. I'm not willing to concede a 3rd.

I also think the thing many of us are forgetting is that last year was the first year that DeBord and Hiller were together. I would think it takes at least a year for the techniques they teach individually to synchronize to the point of a well functioning offense. They probably spent much of that first year working out how they want to go about all the different schemes. Now they also have to teach it and the kids have to not only learn it but become at least good at it and work as a team.

I don't think anyone can expect good play right away and it is all exacerbated by the youth, inexperience and talent level of the kids. I do believe it will take a few more years to get the OL where they really want it to be. Some will be with current players, but in many cases it will have to be with new kids.
 
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You could literally copy/paste 7-8 years worth of basketball board posts re: Crean on this thread and you wouldn’t know the difference. Same posters, same blind sunshine. Calling anyone outside the cult names and ridiculing them.

Same could be said about Wilson on the football boards before Almighty Fred told people he’s...MEAN.

We’ve been here before ladies and gentlemen. Sadly it likely won’t end any differently. Time to move on.
 
All that shows is that our fans are morons. Name one other fan base in the country that would whine about having a good defense instead of a high flying offense.

And again, we scored more points and played at a faster pace this past year than Wilson’s last offense. Do people actually watch the games?

You can spin the defensive BS all you want...Winning takes a combination of both offense and defense.

You tell me one time this year our opponent got the ball in the 4th quarter and we needed a stop and got it? It didn't happen...You know why? We were 110th ranked in 4th quarter points allowed this year. 110th! OFS (out f*cking standing stat)

We were also 64th in scoring defense at 27 ppg this year. The year before that 52nd in scoring defense at 27 ppg. No improvement and we were stacked on that side of the ball this year!

Total defense is a nice stat but when the game is on the line the stats outlined above mean ALOT like it or not!

Tell me another time we got the ball on offense this year in the 4th quarter and needed to win and did? It didn't happen coz we were 103rd in 4th quarter points score 103rd. OFS Our offense was barely better than Wilsons last year which isn't saying much!

Before you start calling people out get it straight. I listened to you bash people all year with the total defense stat. It doesn't mean squat! Is it an improvement from what we had before? Yes. But end results (scoreboard) matter and when the game is on the line matter ALOT and we do not have that on either side of the ball according to the stats above! Cmon man the fanbase wants RESULTS thats not moronic!!!
 
You can spin the defensive BS all you want...Winning takes a combination of both offense and defense.

You tell me one time this year our opponent got the ball in the 4th quarter and we needed a stop and got it? It didn't happen...You know why? We were 110th ranked in 4th quarter points allowed this year. 110th! OFS (out f*cking standing stat)

We were also 64th in scoring defense at 27 ppg this year. The year before that 52nd in scoring defense at 27 ppg. No improvement and we were stacked on that side of the ball this year!

Total defense is a nice stat but when the game is on the line the stats outlined above mean ALOT like it or not!

Tell me another time we got the ball on offense this year in the 4th quarter and needed to win and did? It didn't happen coz we were 103rd in 4th quarter points score 103rd. OFS Our offense was barely better than Wilsons last year which isn't saying much!

Before you start calling people out get it straight. I listened to you bash people all year with the total defense stat. It doesn't mean squat! Is it an improvement from what we had before? Yes. But end results (scoreboard) matter and when the game is on the line matter ALOT and we do not have that on either side of the ball according to the stats above! Cmon man the fanbase wants RESULTS thats not moronic!!!
That guy is a complete joke. You can’t argue with him.

“Never argue with stupid people. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

RBB89 has a PHD in that department. Probably spends his days as an intern shining SB Fred’s shoes.
 
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I also think the thing many of us are forgetting is that last year was the first year that DeBord and Hiller were together. I would think it takes at least a year for the techniques they teach individually to synchronize to the point of a well functioning offense. They probably spent much of that first year working out how they want to go about all the different schemes. Now they also have to teach it and the kids have to not only learn it but become at least good at it and work as a team.

I don't think anyone can expect good play right away and it is all exacerbated by the youth, inexperience and talent level of the kids. I do believe it will take a few more years to get the OL where they really want it to be. Some will be with current players, but in many cases it will have to be with new kids.
I would fully agree if they went from a spread offense to a pro style, Michigan type offense. But they went from spread to spread. They ran similar plays, particularly in the run game. The once difference were the players. As others have mentioned, you need lineman with a high football IQ, toughness ect. I didn’t see that. The same inside/outside zone plays that broke Redding, Howard, and Coleman loose were the same plays that were ran this year. But there were execution issues. So I have a hard time believing it was adjusting to the scheme, because it really wasn’t a new scheme. It was your standard spread offense.

The staff may have also not taken additional lineman in this class because so many guys are coming back. They MIGHT have faith in developing them, but it’s just as likely that they think they need new lineman, but could not add more due to what they have coming back. They needed D ends, DB’s, Linebackers ect, because those positions are thinner than o-line. They have a ton of bodies, so it was going to be impossible to bring in more guys since you can’t cut guys. But if they felt confident about the center position for example, Linder wouldn’t be coming in. I think that in 19’ they hit the O-line recruiting hard.

And that’s my only point. We have seen first hand that to win you have to control the lines. Most people would say that it takes lineman time to develop. If that’s the case. If there might be signs that these guys aren’t just adjusting to a new scheme, but aren’t necessarily Big Ten caliber lineman.., then you’re looking at 4-5 years to have a viable attack and for CTA to develope his guys
 
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I also think the thing many of us are forgetting is that last year was the first year that DeBord and Hiller were together. I would think it takes at least a year for the techniques they teach individually to synchronize to the point of a well functioning offense. They probably spent much of that first year working out how they want to go about all the different schemes. Now they also have to teach it and the kids have to not only learn it but become at least good at it and work as a team.

I don't think anyone can expect good play right away and it is all exacerbated by the youth, inexperience and talent level of the kids. I do believe it will take a few more years to get the OL where they really want it to be. Some will be with current players, but in many cases it will have to be with new kids.
Heres the thing Walt...and I agree I gave them all a pass last year BUT this year personally I will be much more critical.

We are just now completing a major football facilities upgrade. The time to catch the lightning in a bottle so to speak is now! With the facilities getting finished this year we desperately need to have s strong year. I mean 3 or 4 years from now everyone (at least the big boys) will all be upgrading again. Will that happen again so quickly at IU? I highly doubt it.

ALSO The construction will be done on 37 (no more 4 hour tours from Indy) so if the team doesn't start (#breakthrough) mode it will be the same ole same ole. Empty stadium and non interesting product.

CTA needs to put the gas pedal down now! imho
 
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You could literally copy/paste 7-8 years worth of basketball board posts re: Crean on this thread and you wouldn’t know the difference. Same posters, same blind sunshine. Calling anyone outside the cult names and ridiculing them.

Same could be said about Wilson on the football boards before Almighty Fred told people he’s...MEAN.

We’ve been here before ladies and gentlemen. Sadly it likely won’t end any differently. Time to move on.

“Blind sunshine”

Leave the ball, will ya George?
 
It’s taking time for me to warm up to Allen because of the circumstances that he was brought into. Combine that with a disappointing season, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised with what he has done with recruiting and the staff. He has taken a long term approach to the job by redshirting players, and limiting some players’ snaps. I will give him next year with no questions asked, and begin scrutinizing him the following year.
 
You could literally copy/paste 7-8 years worth of basketball board posts re: Crean on this thread and you wouldn’t know the difference. Same posters, same blind sunshine. Calling anyone outside the cult names and ridiculing them.

Same could be said about Wilson on the football boards before Almighty Fred told people he’s...MEAN.

We’ve been here before ladies and gentlemen. Sadly it likely won’t end any differently. Time to move on.
You could also copy and paste every response who have posted on this board.
 
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