Guess what, genius? I'm just trying to understand the legalities here. I appreciate Goat's willingness to humor me without snark. Sticking one's tongue in someone's mouth against their will strikes me as assault, but that doesn't mean the law is written that way. What it tells me is that the law needs to be changed. One big takeaway from this is that it's legal for you to stick your tongue in any stranger's mouth. I'll bet women are excited at their new prospects.
Al Franken's a chickenshit
- Thread starter iuwclurker1
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I think you've called me genius, maestro, Aristotle, and "has brains for a reason". Those are going in my new sig here.
Rest assured, forcing a kiss in some circumstances could arise to criminal unlawfulness (though that doesn't necessarily mean it's "sexual assault" despite your apparent wishes that it be so). So as it turns out we won't have to go forward with the project to re-write American jurisprudence to soothe the jangled nerves of principled Al Franken-phobes on message boards throughout this great nation.
While I get what you're saying, I think we're at risk of moving things too far....especially if legislatures start taking up this matter in the middle of this maelstrom. See my post above about a consensual hookup and the absurdity of requiring "explicit consent" at every stage of intimacy.
"Is it OK if I extend my tongue? Now is it OK if I put my hand here?"
And that, dear sir, is why you don't even come close to having a clue. If you honestly think it's all about abortion, you have some research to do. Let's start with representation, equal wages, all types of healthcare , including mammograms and birth control, domestic violence and rape , and Trump. Always Trump. I'm sure I left out some, but that's a start.Yes, yes...you condemn him and then run off into whataboutism. Your post being a case in point. And your bringing up the family values party thing is my point as well. Who has claimed for years to be the party with women's best interests at heart, I think that mantle is ****ing laughable because all it refers to is abortion, but I digress. They claim it anyway. So if the Democrats are the party of women and if forcibly sticking a part of your body into another persons body in an unwanted sexual way is harrassment at the very least (it was not just a little kiss either, he grabbed the back of her head and smashed his weasel face into hers and then stuck his tongue down her throat) then Al has gotta go folks. Using your rules whenever one of the Family Values guys goes astray, Al has got to resign. He cannot claim that mantle (for women) and do what he did.
Which is part of the whole point to my semi troll job. You all are willing to condemn Stuart Smalley the ha ha funny man for making an innapropriate joke but none of you are willing to go that extra step in saying he should step down. Because that effects the political balance in Washington.
If it was Ted Cruz who had done that to Scarlett Johansen you would all be losing your shit. And if any of us righties had said it was just a kiss and was meant as a joke, you would be freaking the **** out about how horrible Republican attitudes towards women are and Rockfish would be waxing poetic about whataboutism if any conservative poster brought up indiscretions on the left. In fact there are article's out there right now blaming Al Franken and Weinstein's behavior on Trump and Republicans even though those ass hats were involved in this behavior long before Trump got elected.
And that my friends is why SOME of you are so fantastically and predictably full of shit. Party for women phhbbbt. The Democrats are every bit the shady shitty party you feel Republicans are.
"You got a nice wife there Ashton....oooo and her hair smells so sweet."
I guess women just aren't smart enough to figure that out. Good thing we've got you guys here to tell us what we need to think!Yes, yes...you condemn him and then run off into whataboutism. Your post being a case in point. And your bringing up the family values party thing is my point as well. Who has claimed for years to be the party with women's best interests at heart, I think that mantle is ****ing laughable because all it refers to is abortion, but I digress. They claim it anyway. So if the Democrats are the party of women and if forcibly sticking a part of your body into another persons body in an unwanted sexual way is harrassment at the very least (it was not just a little kiss either, he grabbed the back of her head and smashed his weasel face into hers and then stuck his tongue down her throat) then Al has gotta go folks. Using your rules whenever one of the Family Values guys goes astray, Al has got to resign. He cannot claim that mantle (for women) and do what he did.
Which is part of the whole point to my semi troll job. You all are willing to condemn Stuart Smalley the ha ha funny man for making an innapropriate joke but none of you are willing to go that extra step in saying he should step down. Because that effects the political balance in Washington.
If it was Ted Cruz who had done that to Scarlett Johansen you would all be losing your shit. And if any of us righties had said it was just a kiss and was meant as a joke, you would be freaking the **** out about how horrible Republican attitudes towards women are and Rockfish would be waxing poetic about whataboutism if any conservative poster brought up indiscretions on the left. In fact there are article's out there right now blaming Al Franken and Weinstein's behavior on Trump and Republicans even though those ass hats were involved in this behavior long before Trump got elected.
And that my friends is why SOME of you are so fantastically and predictably full of shit. Party for women phhbbbt. The Democrats are every bit the shady shitty party you feel Republicans are.
"You got a nice wife there Ashton....oooo and her hair smells so sweet."
Hey, jackwad. I'm not going to speak for others, but since I'm one of the ones you called out at some point, just a reminder: I haven't called on Moore to remove himself from his race, either. And even if I had, this whole argument started because you were the one stating false equivalencies. What Franken is accused of doing is wrong. But it is not the same as what Moore is accused of doing. You're ignoring this important truth because it gives you a chance to say, "STUPID DEMOCRATS!" and feel good about yourself. It's actually pretty tacky.Yes, yes...you condemn him and then run off into whataboutism. Your post being a case in point. And your bringing up the family values party thing is my point as well. Who has claimed for years to be the party with women's best interests at heart, I think that mantle is ****ing laughable because all it refers to is abortion, but I digress. They claim it anyway. So if the Democrats are the party of women and if forcibly sticking a part of your body into another persons body in an unwanted sexual way is harrassment at the very least (it was not just a little kiss either, he grabbed the back of her head and smashed his weasel face into hers and then stuck his tongue down her throat) then Al has gotta go folks. Using your rules whenever one of the Family Values guys goes astray, Al has got to resign. He cannot claim that mantle (for women) and do what he did.
Which is part of the whole point to my semi troll job. You all are willing to condemn Stuart Smalley the ha ha funny man for making an innapropriate joke but none of you are willing to go that extra step in saying he should step down. Because that effects the political balance in Washington.
If it was Ted Cruz who had done that to Scarlett Johansen you would all be losing your shit. And if any of us righties had said it was just a kiss and was meant as a joke, you would be freaking the **** out about how horrible Republican attitudes towards women are and Rockfish would be waxing poetic about whataboutism if any conservative poster brought up indiscretions on the left. In fact there are article's out there right now blaming Al Franken and Weinstein's behavior on Trump and Republicans even though those ass hats were involved in this behavior long before Trump got elected.
And that my friends is why SOME of you are so fantastically and predictably full of shit. Party for women phhbbbt. The Democrats are every bit the shady shitty party you feel Republicans are.
"You got a nice wife there Ashton....oooo and her hair smells so sweet."
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
I was a Cruz man in the primary. Perhaps if the Democrats had better candidates besides crooked Hillary and crazy Bernie I might have gone to their side this election. Now the Democrats have a real problem if they don't call for Franken's resignation. How can they go after Moore and Trump if they let Franken skate?
You said Moore and Franken should step down.
The question remains. Should Trump step down too?
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
What women have come forward to say Trump tried to confine them or pressure them into sex? Should Bill Clinton have stepped down because of Monica? I'd like your take on that one.
Take a look:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...06be4b0dd63b1a9e27e?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
As for Clinton, if it happened today I would say yes. At the time, I didn't think so. Times -- and I -- have changed.
https://www.thenation.com/article/16-women-or-donald-trump-who-would-you-believe/
You should try harder:
Jill Harth was getting a tour of Trump’s home in 1993 when, she tells us, he sexually assaulted her in his daughter Ivanka’s bedroom, “pushed me up against the wall, and had his hands all over me and tried to get up my dress again, and I had to physically say: ‘What are you doing? Stop it.’”
Temple Taggart was a 21-year-old competing in the Miss USA pageant in 1997 when she tells us Trump forcibly kissed her. “He kissed me directly on the lips. I thought, ‘Oh my God, gross.’ He was married to Marla Maples at the time. I think there were a few other girls that he kissed on the mouth. I was like ‘Wow, that’s inappropriate.’”
Cassandra Searles, a former Miss Washington, tells us that in 2013 Trump treated the contestants “like cattle” and “continually grabbed my ass and invited me to his hotel room.”
Jessica Leeds sat next to Trump on an airplane in the late 1970s, when she tells us he grabbed her breasts and tried to put his hand up her skirt. “He was like an octopus.” “His hands were everywhere.” “It was an assault.”
Support Progressive Journalism
If you like this article, please give today to help fund The Nation’s work.
Kristin Anderson was at a Manhattan nightclub in the early 1990s when she tells us a man suddenly put his hand up her skirt, touching her genitals. She recognized Trump—someone she had never met. “He just stuck his hand up my skirt.”
Lisa Boyne attended a party in the mid-1990s with Trump, where she tells us he made women walk across a table in front of him. He “stuck his head right underneath their skirts” and commented on their genitals and whether they were wearing underwear.
Karena Virginia encountered Trump at the US Open in 1998 when she tells us Trump approached her at random, made sexual comments about her body, and groped her. “Then his hand touched the right side of my breast. I was in shock. I flinched. ‘Don’t you know who I am? Don’t you know who I am?’—that’s what he said to me.”
Mindy McGillivray was helping photograph a Ray Charles concert at Mar-a-Lago in 2003 when she says she was groped by Trump, “All of a sudden I felt a grab, a little nudge. I think it’s Ken’s camera bag, that was my first instinct. I turn around and there’s Donald. He sort of looked away quickly. I quickly turned back, facing Ray Charles, and I’m stunned.’’
Rachel Crooks was a 22-year-old receptionist in Trump Tower in 2005 when she introduced herself to Trump. She tells us he began kissing her cheeks and “kissed me directly on the mouth.” “It was so inappropriate…. I was so upset that he thought I was so insignificant that he could do that.”
Natasha Stoynoff was interviewing Trump for People magazine in 2005 when, she tells us, he closed the door to a room, with Melania waiting outside, and attacked her. “I turned around, and within seconds he was pushing me against the wall and forcing his tongue down my throat.”
Jessica Drake encountered Trump at a golf tournament in Lake Tahoe in the mid-2000s. She tells us that he “grabbed” her and two other women and kissed them “without asking permission” and then offered her $10,000 and use of his plane if she would come back to his room.
Ninni Laaksonen, a former Miss Finland, was preparing for a TV appearance in 2006 when she tells us Trump groped her, “He really grabbed my butt.” “I don’t think anybody saw it, but I flinched and thought, ‘What is happening?’”
Samantha Holvey, a former Miss North Carolina, tells us that in 2006 Trump came into the contestants’ dressing room and once had the contestants line up so he could step “in front of each girl and look you over from head to toe like we were just meat, we were just sexual objects, that we were not people.” https://www.thenation.com/article/16-women-or-donald-trump-who-would-you-believe/
Tasha Dixon, a former Miss Arizona, tells us that in 2001 Trump “just came strolling right in” to their dressing room. “There was no second to put a robe on or any sort of clothing or anything. Some girls were topless. Others girls were naked.”
Trump in 2005 bragged to Howard Stern about invading his contestants’ dressing rooms, “You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. And you see these incredible-looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that.”
Summer Zervos, a contestant on The Apprentice, met with Trump in 2007 about getting a job with the Trump Organization. She tells us he greeted her with an “open-mouthed” kiss and groped her breast. As she attempted to push him off, he “thrusted his genitals” against her.
You should try harder:
Jill Harth was getting a tour of Trump’s home in 1993 when, she tells us, he sexually assaulted her in his daughter Ivanka’s bedroom, “pushed me up against the wall, and had his hands all over me and tried to get up my dress again, and I had to physically say: ‘What are you doing? Stop it.’”
Temple Taggart was a 21-year-old competing in the Miss USA pageant in 1997 when she tells us Trump forcibly kissed her. “He kissed me directly on the lips. I thought, ‘Oh my God, gross.’ He was married to Marla Maples at the time. I think there were a few other girls that he kissed on the mouth. I was like ‘Wow, that’s inappropriate.’”
Cassandra Searles, a former Miss Washington, tells us that in 2013 Trump treated the contestants “like cattle” and “continually grabbed my ass and invited me to his hotel room.”
Jessica Leeds sat next to Trump on an airplane in the late 1970s, when she tells us he grabbed her breasts and tried to put his hand up her skirt. “He was like an octopus.” “His hands were everywhere.” “It was an assault.”
Support Progressive Journalism
If you like this article, please give today to help fund The Nation’s work.
Kristin Anderson was at a Manhattan nightclub in the early 1990s when she tells us a man suddenly put his hand up her skirt, touching her genitals. She recognized Trump—someone she had never met. “He just stuck his hand up my skirt.”
Lisa Boyne attended a party in the mid-1990s with Trump, where she tells us he made women walk across a table in front of him. He “stuck his head right underneath their skirts” and commented on their genitals and whether they were wearing underwear.
Karena Virginia encountered Trump at the US Open in 1998 when she tells us Trump approached her at random, made sexual comments about her body, and groped her. “Then his hand touched the right side of my breast. I was in shock. I flinched. ‘Don’t you know who I am? Don’t you know who I am?’—that’s what he said to me.”
Mindy McGillivray was helping photograph a Ray Charles concert at Mar-a-Lago in 2003 when she says she was groped by Trump, “All of a sudden I felt a grab, a little nudge. I think it’s Ken’s camera bag, that was my first instinct. I turn around and there’s Donald. He sort of looked away quickly. I quickly turned back, facing Ray Charles, and I’m stunned.’’
Rachel Crooks was a 22-year-old receptionist in Trump Tower in 2005 when she introduced herself to Trump. She tells us he began kissing her cheeks and “kissed me directly on the mouth.” “It was so inappropriate…. I was so upset that he thought I was so insignificant that he could do that.”
Natasha Stoynoff was interviewing Trump for People magazine in 2005 when, she tells us, he closed the door to a room, with Melania waiting outside, and attacked her. “I turned around, and within seconds he was pushing me against the wall and forcing his tongue down my throat.”
Jessica Drake encountered Trump at a golf tournament in Lake Tahoe in the mid-2000s. She tells us that he “grabbed” her and two other women and kissed them “without asking permission” and then offered her $10,000 and use of his plane if she would come back to his room.
Ninni Laaksonen, a former Miss Finland, was preparing for a TV appearance in 2006 when she tells us Trump groped her, “He really grabbed my butt.” “I don’t think anybody saw it, but I flinched and thought, ‘What is happening?’”
Samantha Holvey, a former Miss North Carolina, tells us that in 2006 Trump came into the contestants’ dressing room and once had the contestants line up so he could step “in front of each girl and look you over from head to toe like we were just meat, we were just sexual objects, that we were not people.” https://www.thenation.com/article/16-women-or-donald-trump-who-would-you-believe/
Tasha Dixon, a former Miss Arizona, tells us that in 2001 Trump “just came strolling right in” to their dressing room. “There was no second to put a robe on or any sort of clothing or anything. Some girls were topless. Others girls were naked.”
Trump in 2005 bragged to Howard Stern about invading his contestants’ dressing rooms, “You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. And you see these incredible-looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that.”
Summer Zervos, a contestant on The Apprentice, met with Trump in 2007 about getting a job with the Trump Organization. She tells us he greeted her with an “open-mouthed” kiss and groped her breast. As she attempted to push him off, he “thrusted his genitals” against her.
Breitbart is on it:
Stepson of Roy Moore Accuser: Accusations ‘One Hundred Percent a Lie’
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ccuser-accusations-one-hundred-percent-a-lie/
Stepson of Roy Moore Accuser: Accusations ‘One Hundred Percent a Lie’
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ccuser-accusations-one-hundred-percent-a-lie/
Nothing to see here. VPM says Trump is a changed man...that he's found the Lord in recent years.
You're morphing into your guy Trump with your juvenile name calling. Let me explain the difference. Just like there is a difference in a traffic ticket and murder, there is a difference in levels of sexual abuse. I'd say pedophilia is much closer to murder than a traffic ticket. Are you truly trying to equate the two? You sound like you align yourself with the evangelicals that say they are now MORE likely to vote for Moore. How Christian of you.
Okay, but underlying your argument is the whole problem of trust and consent. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything without it being true. Under consensual surface kissing, if someone doesn't want tongue in mouth, they can keep their teeth closed in the final analysis. If it's unexpected, the pull back and say stop.
That's simply not what happened here. We can grant hoosboot his contention that this was simply a case of two actors not agreeing in advance what the kiss would be and both should know to be explicit, but then hoosboot ought to be willing to grant that she had already made it clear she wasn't too interested in any sort of practice kiss and Franken had to know he was going farther than she had any interest in going. It's not like people don't perceive things. We're not automatons. He took advantage of the situation for God-knows-what reason, legal or not. To me, if there's going to be any social/moral judging of Franken, it's got to be along those lines. Wtf was he thinking? Let's not forget he was 55. Kind of grown up a wee bit.
Oh hon, did you honestly ignore all those allegations? Do you not know how google works? Fine, I'll do your work for you, even though it won't matter. You'll still make excuses. You know he was accused of raping a child too, right?
When I didn't think your posting could get any more absurd, you go and out do yourself.
http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531
Two accusations of rape, one with a child, and another accusation of attempted rape. There's your Godly man, Van. Let's hear your excuses now.
Yeah, I'm talking more generally here about legally defining sexual assault...not so much about the specifics regarding Franken. What he did ought to be illegal -- as consent clearly wasn't there.
And I do think non-verbal gestures should be taken into account. I just think we should be careful about insisting on "explicit" consent. I don't think I've ever done anything that could or should qualify as criminal sexual assault. But I've had plenty of instances where no verbal questions were posed nor answers given -- from both directions, frankly. And I'm sure I'm not alone.
So how do we distinguish between the two?
Okay. Well, I have a problem with this whole area because, like you, I'm concerned that good people won't be able to behave normally any more without needing to sign 8-page consent forms before each act.
So to me the primary distinguishing point is whether both are clearly interested and engaged in intimacy from the start. From there on, any explicit communication has to be on an as needed basis of some sort. Verbalizing can excite or spoil, as we all know.
If there's really any obvious question, it should be clarified before anything happens. My guess is, especially with young people, there's not nearly enough communication in advance, talking about what each agrees on, and where we're probably headed is that things need to be a lot more explicit.
The more I discuss this, the more disgusting Franken's lunging, plunging tongue is. ptuui
Plus all the women he has paid hush money to keep them quiet, such as this former Playmate of the year:
https://theslot.jezebel.com/here-are-pictures-of-donald-trump-with-the-playboy-mode-1788612597
Unfortunately people voted for Trump even knowing all of this.
The fact that you all focus on the 6 days comment, instead of empowering them to immediately put into motion steps to stop these things tells everything I need to know. You hate women and you want them to carry unearned guilt for 30 yrs. I am thankful that my daughters are stronger that that.
This is not a "byproduct" of anything, it's a pre-existing condition.
That's why the overwhelming attitude about Clinton among Democrats c. 1998 was that he (and, more to the point, his presidency) should be defended and protected....and now it's becoming de rigueur to have "evolved" into a higher state of righteousness on such matters.
These people didn't change -- the circumstances did.
A better question is: What woman hasn't? Pennsylvania is the perfect place for your ministry.
When I was a teenager and then in my days in Bloomington, consent was when she didn’t push your hand away from certain areas while you were still making out.
No, seriously, what women have come forward to accuse this man of God? Go on, convince me.
It's coming; don't worry! I'll say the righties are truly resourceful. I was actually surprised that they did not compose Bernie-serial-molester story when he was running for the president.
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When Sarah Sanders was at her press briefing yesterday and asked about Trump and Franken she was able to distinguish between the two because Trump hasn't admitted to any sexual assaults. So apparently the best solution when confronted about your past is to deny and then attack the victims.
It's coming; don't worry! I'll say the righties are truly resourceful and actually surprised that they did not compose Bernie-serial-molester story when he was running for the president.
Or god gorbif
So we live on an age of 'its not true even if you get caught saying it.' Right.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
If it is true then he should be in jail. If the President raped anyone this would be true. Bill Clinton was accused of rape. Did you say he should be in jail for it? For all these situations there should be a trail, not in the court of public opinion, but in a courtroom of law. Surely the lawyers on here agree with that.
Clinton was accused of rape by a woman who originally signed a sworn affidavit saying he never raped her. She was given immunity by Ken Starr to go against her original statement and accuse Clinton of rape. Back when Starr was looking for ammunition against Clinton when the pubs were on their blowjob crusade back in the 90s. Was she lying the first time, or was she lying the second time?
