After we beat the Illini, and Iowa? (Long)

.Gerdis

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Dec 10, 2003
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I’ve tried to be consistent in my expectations for this team this year. My opinion of where we are as a program didn’t change after we beat Iowa, or lost to Rutgers. To me, it’s really simple and comes down to things that are strictly mental. More on that later....

This season is all about WHEN you play someone, as opposed to who or (or where) you are playing. Covid has complicated things, and I expect that the scheduling will really be impactful as far as final results.

IMHO, there has never been more parity in this league. I don’t look at Iowa, or UM, or Wisconsin and see great teams. Conversely, I don’t look at PSU, NU, or Maryland and see bad teams. The league is deep. The bottom is pretty good, the top is good. I expect to see a bunch of teams make the tournament. Scheduling will determine if any can get a #1 or even #2 seed.

IU has been very consistent in how they are as a team over the Miller era. They have shown that they can beat anyone (except PU?), and that they have a tendency to play down to their competition as well. Look no further to the 12 of 13 losing stretch 2 years ago, with the 1 good game being at MSU. Look no further than Iowa/Rutgers. Look no further than getting hammered at home by Nebraska (2-3 yrs ago?), the continued struggles against Evanston’s Wildcats, the wins versus State.

Our program for the last 4 years reminds me of Denonte Green.

We just seem to be fragile between the ears, where it most matters. We have become extremely consistent at being inconsistent. Lackadaisical is often our middle name.

There is absolutely NO reason we shouldn’t beat the Illini on Tuesday. None, zero, nada.

(Except, of course all of the reasons I just stated above).

Even so, with over a week off to prepare, and coming off a loss where it was clearly a complete lack of preparation, effort, and toughness, how in the would can’t we come out with our best effort of the season?

Has anyone checked out Iowa’s schedule? They lost on Friday, play Tuesday, again on Thursday, and then play us next Sunday. They were clearly fatigued in the second half when we beat them. Don’t be surprised to see us easily beat them, don’t be shocked to see Iowa start to unravel. They will limp into Bloomington strictly on fumes.

then there are even bigger question that will come down to scheduling. Will we end up with make up games ourselves? Will we play UM twice, once, or not at all (my prediction).


So, it should be an interesting few weeks.

my expectations remain the same. In a nutshell, 6 seed or bust. This team, if it just gets it’s crap together, should be a team that should finish in the top 5-6 in B10, should be a top 25 team, should be able to show a tangible, real jump as a program from last year. It’s year FOUR, for goodness sake.

If we can do that, if we can finally put to rest the ghosts of “12 out of 13”, the Jekyll and Hyde personality and the Lackadaisical mindset I’ll feel better about our programs trajectory.

If, OTOH, the wheels come off , well I’ve seen that train ride as well. It could be ugly. Or, even worse, it could mean limping into the tournament as a 10 seed, and people pointing to clear improvement based on something like Kenpom (being top 25 in Kenpom really did PU a lot of good last year).

buckle up, these next 2 games will be critical.
 
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Champs1976

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May 18, 2020
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They'll win one that will be considered an upset and lose one narrowly they should win. both results will be due to effort or lack thereof. Archie can't motivate them to play hard all of the time (or even some of the time sometimes. It is a hallmark of CAM's teams. Nothing will get us better or challenging for Big titles until he either learns how to motivate players, develop players or preferably both. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity, or stupidity.
 

go_iu

Senior
Feb 22, 2004
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I’ve tried to be consistent in my expectations for this team this year. My opinion of where we are as a program didn’t change after we beat Iowa, or lost to Rutgers. To me, it’s really simple and comes down to things that are strictly mental. More on that later....

This season is all about WHEN you play someone, as opposed to who or (or where) you are playing. Covid has complicated things, and I expect that the scheduling will really be impactful as far as final results.

IMHO, there has never been more parity in this league. I don’t look at Iowa, or UM, or Wisconsin and see great teams. Conversely, I don’t look at PSU, NU, or Maryland and see bad teams. The league is deep. The bottom is pretty good, the top is good. I expect to see a bunch of teams make the tournament. Scheduling will determine if any can get a #1 or even #2 seed.

IU has been very consistent in how they are as a team over the Miller era. They have shown that they can beat anyone (except PU?), and that they have a tendency to play down to their competition as well. Look no further to the 12 of 13 losing stretch 2 years ago, with the 1 good game being at MSU. Look no further than Iowa/Rutgers. Look no further than getting hammered at home by Nebraska (2-3 yrs ago?), the continued struggles against Evanston’s Wildcats, the wins versus State.

Our program for the last 4 years reminds me of Denonte Green.

We just seem to be fragile between the ears, where it most matters. We have become extremely consistent at being inconsistent. Lackadaisical is often our middle name.

There is absolutely NO reason we shouldn’t beat the Illini on Tuesday. None, zero, nada.

(Except, of course all of the reasons I just stated above).

Even so, with over a week off to prepare, and coming off a loss where it was clearly a complete lack of preparation, effort, and toughness, how in the would can’t we come out with our best effort of the season?

Has anyone checked out Iowa’s schedule? They lost on Friday, play Tuesday, again on Thursday, and then play us next Sunday. They were clearly fatigued in the second half when we beat them. Don’t be surprised to see us easily beat them, don’t be shocked to see Iowa start to unravel. They will limp into Bloomington strictly on fumes.

then there are even bigger question that will come down to scheduling. Will we end up with make up games ourselves? Will we play UM twice, once, or not at all (my prediction).


So, it should be an interesting few weeks.

my expectations remain the same. In a nutshell, 6 seed or bust. This team, if it just gets it’s crap together, should be a team that should finish in the top 5-6 in B10, should be a top 25 team, should be able to show a tangible, real jump as a program from last year. It’s year FOUR, for goodness sake.

If we can do that, if we can finally put to rest the ghosts of “12 out of 13”, the Jekyll and Hyde personality and the Lackadaisical mindset I’ll feel better about our programs trajectory.

If, OTOH, the wheels come off , well I’ve seen that train ride as well. It could be ugly. Or, even worse, it could mean limping into the tournament as a 10 seed, and people pointing to clear improvement based on something like Kenpom (being top 25 in Kenpom really did PU a lot of good last year).

buckle up, these next 2 games will be critical.
I disagree, it's not mental and, if it is, that's coaching at this point. It's lack of talent and lack of coaching and bad recruiting misses combined. It's somebody in way over their head and realizing that mid-major gimmicks don't work against the big boys. Sure, you can catch a good team off guard with that in the tourney once in a while, but it doesn't work consistently against teams with more talent and when they know what's coming only because you're incapable of teaching to you're opponent.. It never will work. Bottom line is if we had talent, we wouldn't need this stupid packline shit. Look at this team and tell me you wouldn't pine away for the days of Neil Reed, Andre Patterson, Charlie Miller in a heartbeat. Hell, I'm not sure that I wouldn't place money that a prime Mandeville wouldn't completely dominate TJD. That speaks to our talent level
 
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Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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Even so, with over a week off to prepare, and coming off a loss where it was clearly a complete lack of preparation, effort, and toughness, how in the would can’t we come out with our best effort of the season?

Well....we have shown under Miller that we can have upwards of 7 days of rest and preparation and still look like we haven’t dribbled a basketball in their lives.

I always expect the unexpected from this program under Miller.
 
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.Gerdis

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I disagree, it's not mental and, if it is, that's coaching at this point. It's lack of talent and lack of coaching and bad recruiting misses combined. It's somebody in way over their head and realizing that mid-major gimmicks don't work against the big boys. Sure, you can catch a good team off guard with that in the tourney once in a while, but it doesn't work consistently against teams with more talent and when they know what's coming. It never will work. Bottom line is if we had talent, we wouldn't need this stupid packline shit. Look at this team and tell me you wouldn't pine away for the days of Neil Reed, Andre Patterson, Charlie Miller in a heartbeat

of course the mental part of the game is related to coaching. So is, player development. So is the “identity” of the team. And I wholeheartedly agree with the posts you have made about culture.

when Miller was hired I hoped we had found a poor man’s Bo Ryan. Someone that would get the most out of the players that he had. That the sum collective was greater than the parts. That players were placed in a position that accentuated their strengths and hid their weaknesses, That players understood their roles on the team. That we would have a coach that could beat a team with his players, or with the players on the other team.

mainly I was hoping for an end to the roller coaster that was the Crean program. There should be no excuse for missing the NCAA tournament more often than once every ten or so years.
 

.Gerdis

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Well....we have shown under Miller that we can have upwards of 7 days of rest and preparation and still look like we haven’t dribbled a basketball in their lives.

I always expect the unexpected from this program under Miller.

no doubt.

am I saying that four years of issues will be wiped away in one fell swoop? no.

think of the following two scenarios:

IOWA W
RU. W

people here would be giddy

IOWA L
RU. L

people here would be saying we won’t win another game.

my point, and maybe I am doing a poor job of making it, is:

1. Yes, there are tons of red flags, and our program may be in real poor shape. It’s obvious that Miller very likely isn’t the answer.

BUT

2. I have set a bar (MY expectations) for this season and I’m not going to move that bar up and down like a pogo stick every time Jekyll or Hyde show up. 6 seed or bust in my mind. To me we have to show significant improvement over last year. Measured in conference standings, and a much higher NCAA seed.

will we get there? I have serious doubts. If we don’t what happens?

-complete meltdown?
-another season treading water (.500 in conference, a ten seed?)?

of those two scenarios I’m not sure what is worse.
 

go_iu

Senior
Feb 22, 2004
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no doubt.

am I saying that four years of issues will be wiped away in one fell swoop? no.

think of the following two scenarios:

IOWA W
RU. W

people here would be giddy

IOWA L
RU. L

people here would be saying we won’t win another game.

my point, and maybe I am doing a poor job of making it, is:

1. Yes, there are tons of red flags, and our program may be in real poor shape. It’s obvious that Miller very likely isn’t the answer.

BUT

2. I have set a bar (MY expectations) for this season and I’m not going to move that bar up and down like a pogo stick every time Jekyll or Hyde show up. 6 seed or bust in my mind. To me we have to show significant improvement over last year. Measured in conference standings, and a much higher NCAA seed.

will we get there? I have serious doubts. If we don’t what happens?

-complete meltdown?
-another season treading water (.500 in conference, a ten seed?)?

of those two scenarios I’m not sure what is worse.
But it needs to be a complete meltdown!. I fail to see why so many can think we can dump Archie in March following our NIT loss and hope for better things next year. This roster needs to be thinned, and things will get much worse before they get better. It has to be that way. This is not a fixable roster and remove TJD ... it's DII. It needs to be blown up, there's just no talent and you can't polish a turd. Nor would any coach worthy of the job want to come in with expectations of having to do that.
Hate to say it, because it's been so long since I've seen good IU Bball, and I hope it can return, but this time they really need to blow it up. It needs to start with the right hire, culture building, and actually getting good players (i.e., not Mr. BBalls that only won because it was a down year). COVID complicates all this and I wonder how much desire there would be for a coach we deem worthy to want to come in with high expectations and clean up the shit show. Would love to see AM fired today, but I can see that in the admin's reasoning. If nobody can make it any better soon, why try and pay for it.
 
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Tasmanian Devil

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To me we have to show significant improvement over last year. Measured in conference standings, and a much higher NCAA seed.

Let's see - tied for 10th 2019-20; have no idea what NCAA seed would have been, although most bracketologists had us no better than 9. We have - barring a complete cancellation of the Michigan game - 10 games left.

Do you - with those parameters defined - see ANYWAY possible we're significantly better than last year? Be honest with yourself. I don't.

IMO, it's gonna take a herculean effort the rest of the way to achieve your stated improvement goals. If we're at where we ended last season, I don't see any way Miller should be retained. I just don't.
 

fkfootball

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of course the mental part of the game is related to coaching. So is, player development. So is the “identity” of the team. And I wholeheartedly agree with the posts you have made about culture.

when Miller was hired I hoped we had found a poor man’s Bo Ryan. Someone that would get the most out of the players that he had. That the sum collective was greater than the parts. That players were placed in a position that accentuated their strengths and hid their weaknesses, That players understood their roles on the team. That we would have a coach that could beat a team with his players, or with the players on the other team.

mainly I was hoping for an end to the roller coaster that was the Crean program. There should be no excuse for missing the NCAA tournament more often than once every ten or so years.

That’s Chris Holtman.
 

.Gerdis

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Dec 10, 2003
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IMO, it's gonna take a herculean effort the rest of the way to achieve your stated improvement goals. If we're at where we ended last season, I don't see any way Miller should be retained. I just don't.

I don’t disagree.

I have been consistent since pre-season. It’s not like the type of improvement I am seeking is that much to ask. Crean took over a program in worse shape and look where he had us in a similar time frame. This season is put up or shut up.

either way. Our next two games are critical.
 
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Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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But it needs to be a complete meltdown!. I fail to see why so many can think we can dump Archie in March following our NIT loss and hope for better things next year. This roster needs to be thinned, and things will get much worse before they get better. It has to be that way. This is not a fixable roster and remove TJD ... it's DII. It needs to be blown up, there's just no talent and you can't polish a turd. Nor would any coach worthy of the job want to come in with expectations of having to do that.
Hate to say it, because it's been so long since I've seen good IU Bball, and I hope it can return, but this time they really need to blow it up. It needs to start with the right hire, culture building, and actually getting good players (i.e., not Mr. BBalls that only won because it was a down year). COVID complicates all this and I wonder how much desire there would be for a coach we deem worthy to want to come in with high expectations and clean up the shit show. Would love to see AM fired today, but I can see that in the admin's reasoning. If nobody can make it any better soon, why try and pay for it.

IU could fire Miller and hire 15 members of this board as a staff to spilt his 3.31 million annual salary and we’d probably be in no worse shape.
 
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