Adios, Archie

Crayfish57

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Sep 18, 2013
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There was a time where you could make an argument that IU was the best program of all time, now I’m not sure if the administration cares anymore. Certainly not as much as they once did. Any other top program and Archie would be on his way out.

Looking at the schedule this see no more than 7 BIG10 wins, recruiting is already going in the tank. Unfortunately we’ll end up holding onto him for a year too long, Trayce will leave prompting the season to go to shit, and we’ll waste another year of losing recruits because we have a coach everyone knows isn’t going to stay around.

That’s the program IU has become, sad but true.
When that was an argument and there was still UCLA , we had and whatever you think about his methods, the best coach the college game will ever know at a time when there was the exact right kind of in state players with a few from ILL and Ohio that perfectly fit . The high schools adapted to his style and so the players were ready. No AAU , a lot of them went to his camps. Isiah was going to be a star wherever he went. Steve Alford is probably the best example of coach and player built for each other. Galloway and Franklin are best hopes , but IU had a bench filled with those guys in the 70's and 80's. Good to see Franklin back, he and Galloway seem to at least care. I saw close to the end with still hope on a FT TJD and 50 from PU talking and smiling.
 

go_iu

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Feb 22, 2004
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Rather disappointed to say this, get no pleasure from it. If you can't even beat PU at home, you need to go. I'm tired of that, tired of a losing Big Ten record. GTFO. Can't recruit, can't put together a coherent roster. Just not the guy. I can't think of one advantage Archie gives us as a coach, only disadvantages.

Why does PU beat us? Size advantage, shooting advantage, better offense, they try harder and want it more. Go find a coach that can do these things better.
It's that he can't or doesn't recruit to his "system". Systems can work like at Syracuse, but Boeheim recruits to it CONSISTENTLY. AM doesn't recruit to it at all. I don't care for systems and think a good coach should be able to adapt on a game by game and year by year basis. AM doesn't or can't, so needs to go
 
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go_iu

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His recruiting is out the window, too. He’s a lame duck in the next two or three years.
He's a lame duck now, recruiting will just get worse without extending him, but he's done nothing to warrant that or his salary. MD came within 4 minutes of an NC win making like 450K
 

go_iu

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Feb 22, 2004
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Offense has been pathetic, including shooting. Archie doesn't understand that the Big Ten is a physical league and refuses to recruit adequate size. Recruiting period isn't impressive. It is painful to watch his teams play. Archie is a negative value coach.
He's not got B10 talent. Getting mid major guys and throwing them in an IU uniform does not B10 talent make. That, however, is on him, plus the fact that it doesn't seem he can get these guys to try
 

go_iu

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I can't think of one reason TJD would want to return and go through this crap again. They obviously didn't work on his mid-range shot. Even with COVID, he could have been given instruction on what to work on. My guess is he will work on it while making 2 Mil+ in the NBA next year.
I don't think he'd be drafted, he's not as NBA ready as Morgan. Maybe G league if he gets a favor due to his Dad
 

Timmy Mac

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I never thought I'd get to the point where I'd say this but, Steve Alford would have been a better choice.....he could be no worse.

Heck I don't think Archie is any better than Mike Davis.
 

go_iu

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True but I think Archie gets another year regardless. I hope not as going into the season as a lame duck coach never ends well, but there doesn’t seem to be a sense of urgency with the program right now.

Also Sampson had better players in year one, this team will be completely bereft of talent If Trayce leaves.
They will tank it and not renew him till COVID is over. 1) It justifies letting him go and 2) it allows more time to evaluate who they want and I would think that person would not want to come into a messed up roster with COVID going on that they'd have to gut and affect the GPA average stuff ... whatever that's called.

Start clean and this is a more attractive job. It's IU, you get to build your own roster immediately, the pay obviously, and get a honeymoon for a couple years. Bad days for fans ahead, it will soon become unwatchable. I don't think TJD can go pro, but I think it's very possible that he and Lander will transfer, and who'd blame them
 

go_iu

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Feb 22, 2004
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There was a time where you could make an argument that IU was the best program of all time, now I’m not sure if the administration cares anymore. Certainly not as much as they once did. Any other top program and Archie would be on his way out.

Looking at the schedule this see no more than 7 BIG10 wins, recruiting is already going in the tank. Unfortunately we’ll end up holding onto him for a year too long, Trayce will leave prompting the season to go to shit, and we’ll waste another year of losing recruits because we have a coach everyone knows isn’t going to stay around.

That’s the program IU has become, sad but true.
I'd argue, unfortunately, that it might be worth the suffering. We'll totally suck, but not have to pay off AM, and have a very long period of fan backlash that will force the admins to recognize they've nearly killed their cash cow and inform them they need a home-run, proven, hire. Nothing and nobody can fix this year or next.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Nothing and nobody can fix this year or next.
Which is why he should’ve been fired after last year. It was already clear by then that he wasn’t going to be successful here. And (money considerations aside) that’s the time to pull the plug. Letting mediocrity fester only allows its roots to grow deeper.

But, for one thing, a lot of people refused to see what was obvious and truly believed that better times were on the way. Coach K and all that. And, moreover, there’s a fear that firing a failed coach “too quickly” will cause other prospective coaches to avoid our job as a place where success isn’t given enough time.

Anyway, we are where we are. And COVID has probably tied Dolson’s hands, alas.
 
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BCCHoosier

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They will tank it and not renew him till COVID is over. 1) It justifies letting him go and 2) it allows more time to evaluate who they want and I would think that person would not want to come into a messed up roster with COVID going on that they'd have to gut and affect the GPA average stuff ... whatever that's called.

Start clean and this is a more attractive job. It's IU, you get to build your own roster immediately, the pay obviously, and get a honeymoon for a couple years. Bad days for fans ahead, it will soon become unwatchable. I don't think TJD can go pro, but I think it's very possible that he and Lander will transfer, and who'd blame them
Lander needs to worry about his own problems. There is not a good program where he sees the floor based in his current play. Maybe at an Indiana State or Evansville.
 
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JB_Nomee

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Dec 18, 2012
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Rather disappointed to say this, get no pleasure from it. If you can't even beat PU at home, you need to go. I'm tired of that, tired of a losing Big Ten record. GTFO. Can't recruit, can't put together a coherent roster. Just not the guy. I can't think of one advantage Archie gives us as a coach, only disadvantages.

Why does PU beat us? Size advantage, shooting advantage, better offense, they try harder and want it more. Go find a coach that can do these things better.
Let’s just pull the plug and hire Alford already because that’s who it’ll be.
 
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go_iu

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Which is why he should’ve been fired after last year. It was already clear by then that he wasn’t going to be successful here. And (money considerations aside) that’s the time to pull the plug. Letting mediocrity fester only allows its roots to grow deeper.

But, for one thing, a lot of people refused to see what was obvious and truly believed that better times were on the way. Coach K and all that. And, moreover, there’s a fear that firing a failed coach “too quickly” will cause other prospective coaches to avoid our job as a place where success isn’t given enough time.

Anyway, we are where we are. And COVID has probably tied Dolson’s hands, alas.
Agree 100%. I'd rather suck next year though, which we will anyway and make a good, proven hire this time ... no more Archie experiments. Is what it is, but I think the level of suckiness and fan apathy might hit them in the pocket book this time
 

kkott

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Which is why he should’ve been fired after last year. It was already clear by then that he wasn’t going to be successful here. And (money considerations aside) that’s the time to pull the plug. Letting mediocrity fester only allows its roots to grow deeper.

But, for one thing, a lot of people refused to see what was obvious and truly believed that better times were on the way. Coach K and all that. And, moreover, there’s a fear that firing a failed coach “too quickly” will cause other prospective coaches to avoid our job as a place where success isn’t given enough time.

Anyway, we are where we are. And COVID has probably tied Dolson’s hands, alas.
It's not been the progress we wanted, but I thought he deserved this year and this would be a good team, capable of competing with anyone in the B10. Brunks injury highlighted the lack of depth to our frontcourt and the season has highlighted our shooting woes and lack of energy, desire and talent. This was a make or break year and we're broken. Time for Dolson to earn his keep.
 
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Champs1976

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May 18, 2020
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I too was willing to give Archie the benefit of the doubt, but no more. For four years his teams have had the same three deficiencies on offense - abysmal 3 pt. shooting percentages, abysmal FT shooting percentages and lack of movement/poor spacing. The kicker is no improvement, none. I am sick of a coach saying a purpose on offense is to get to the FT line and then his team can't make them. What? The consistent lack of fire in motivating his team is huge. During the NE game his team literally quit for a long stretch. RMK would have walked out of that game with an objective of hammering those guys in practice to force them to understand 40 minutes of effort. This game was pathetic. Dolson should be looking for his replacement now, particularly if Archie's approach to kaufman was showing him TJD. He is too stupid to coach and recruit at this level.
 
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go_iu

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Lander needs to worry about his own problems. There is not a good program where he sees the floor based in his current play. Maybe at an Indiana State or Evansville.
The problem I have with that is that when we suck, and have no realistic asperations beyond the NIT ... which we'd probably decline again for the same damn reasons, we should let the supposed talent play through their mistakes and see what we got.

Rob should be the one thinking about a transfer to ISU or UE. He was not as billed, maybe Lander isn't either, but we don't know and what's the harm of playing him when we suck anyway. It's very possible there is no tourney again this year, and if there is, it would take a miracle turn around for us just to lose in the first round to Alabama or Pepperdine or some $hit like that. Cut bait and let Lander play out
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Agree 100%. I'd rather suck next year though, which we will anyway and make a good, proven hire this time ... no more Archie experiments. Is what it is, but I think the level of suckiness and fan apathy might hit them in the pocket book this time
See, I don’t think Archie was “an experiment” or a bad hire. I was very optimistic about the hire at the time it was made.

And it’s not like I turned sour on him at the first sign of trouble. Of course a new captain has to be given time to right a wayward ship. Granted, there are always people who want coaches fired after any loss, particularly a painful one. But I’ve never been that guy.

My break with Archie has been due to the consistent lack of progression. His teams haven’t improved much, if at all, over the course of any particular season. In some cases, they seemed to regress. And, beyond that, the trajectory from season-to-season has been frustratingly flat. The basic gripes we have today are no different than the basic gripes we had last year, or the year before that.

But there have just been too many people who are impenetrable on this. And it’s apparently the case that Fred Glass was one of them. Hopefully Scott Dolson isn’t. We’ll see.
 

go_iu

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I too was willing to give Archie the benefit of the doubt, but no more. For four years his teams have had the same three deficiencies on offense - abysmal 3 pt. shooting percentages, abysmal FT shooting percentages and lack of movement/poor spacing. The kicker is no improvement, none. I am sick of a coach saying a purpose on offense is to get to the FT line and then his team can't make them. What? The consistent lack of fire in motivating his team is huge. During the NE game his team literally quit for a long stretch. RMK would have walked out of that game with an objective of hammering those guys in practice to force them to understand 40 minutes of effort. This game was pathetic. Dolson should be looking for his replacement now, particularly if Archie's approach to kaufman was showing him TJD. He is too stupid to coach and recruit at this level.
Not to mention, it's hard, really f'n hard to lose 12 of 13 with a lottery pick on your team. In any conference, the NBA, G-League, on the Moon, me coaching with my cat as #1 assistant. That's called you lost the team and you're not a good coach, we've seen this before with orangey
 
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kkott

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See, I don’t think Archie was “an experiment” or a bad hire. I was very optimistic about the hire at the time it was made.

And it’s not like I turned sour on him at the first sign of trouble. Of course a new captain has to be given time to right a wayward ship. Granted, there are always people who want coaches fired after any loss, particularly a painful one. But I’ve never been that guy.

My break with Archie has been due to the consistent lack of progression. His teams haven’t improved much, if at all, over the course of any particular season. In some cases, they seemed to regress. And, beyond that, the trajectory from season-to-season has been frustratingly flat. The basic gripes we have today are no different than the basic gripes we had last year, or the year before that.

But there have just been too many people who are impenetrable on this. And it’s apparently the case that Fred Glass was one of them. Hopefully Scott Dolson isn’t. We’ll see.
Here's why I think Archie may have been a bad hire: it didn't seem to me that we did a thorough search and identified him as our man from the get go. Had we done that in 72, we'd never have hired a 24 yo coach from Army. With our financial situation we should be casting as wide a net as possible, as that's the most likely way to hit a true home run. Identify an up and comer and bring him in if you can find him. If you don't look, you definitely will not find him. I think Archie was Glass' target from the get-go and if so, that was a mistake. Get bball people involved and try and identiy the next generation of great bball minds and see if one of them is the perfect fit.
 

go_iu

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See, I don’t think Archie was “an experiment” or a bad hire. I was very optimistic about the hire at the time it was made.

And it’s not like I turned sour on him at the first sign of trouble. Of course a new captain has to be given time to right a wayward ship. Granted, there are always people who want coaches fired after any loss, particularly a painful one. But I’ve never been that guy.

My break with Archie has been due to the consistent lack of progression. His teams haven’t improved much, if at all, over the course of any particular season. In some cases, they seemed to regress. And, beyond that, the trajectory from season-to-season has been frustratingly flat. The basic gripes we have today are no different than the basic gripes we had last year, or the year before that.

But there have just been too many people who are impenetrable on this. And it’s apparently the case that Fred Glass was one of them. Hopefully Scott Dolson isn’t. We’ll see.
Agree 100%, I was optimistic too, but its become obvious its not working
 

Lucy01

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Throw in Morton and the additions of Kaufman/Furst. We won’t be beating them anytime in the near future, in fact if Trayce leaves they’ll be able to name the score as early as next year.
Posted Archie should look at Gillis on the Premium Board and got laughed at by the know it all’s!
 

crazed_hoosier2

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It's not been the progress we wanted, but I thought he deserved this year and this would be a good team, capable of competing with anyone in the B10. Brunks injury highlighted the lack of depth to our frontcourt and the season has highlighted our shooting woes and lack of energy, desire and talent. This was a make or break year and we're broken. Time for Dolson to earn his keep.
He didn’t “deserve” this year. That’s just the vestiges of your past wishful thinking still lingering around.

I would be more sympathetic to this if we’d seen from him something intimating a candid and frank understanding of the shortcomings of his teams and a dogged determination to overcome them.

But can anybody say with a straight face that we’ve ever heard that from him (much less seen concrete actions taken to those ends)?
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Here's why I think Archie may have been a bad hire: it didn't seem to me that we did a thorough search and identified him as our man from the get go. Had we done that in 72, we'd never have hired a 24 yo coach from Army. With our financial situation we should be casting as wide a net as possible, as that's the most likely way to hit a true home run. Identify an up and comer and bring him in if you can find him. If you don't look, you definitely will not find him. I think Archie was Glass' target from the get-go and if so, that was a mistake. Get bball people involved and try and identiy the next generation of great bball minds and see if one of them is the perfect fit.
Well, it’s easy to say that Archie was a bad hire now. We have nearly 4 years of indisputable concrete evidence.

But let’s not forget that he was widely considered one of the hottest prospects in the profession at the time. Many OSU fans and boosters, for instance, were crushed when we got him before they could. And with good reason: he’d done very well at Dayton.

Anyway, I don’t fault Glass for the hire. Very few people were wary of Archie at that time. My problem is that it became apparent some time in years 2 and 3 that things weren’t progressing...and the prevailing attitude was a shrug of the shoulders combined with an almost religious belief that more patience would eventually bring the results and they were worth waiting for.

But there has never been any actual evidence this was warranted.
 

Birnk403

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Nov 17, 2019
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Well, it’s easy to say that Archie was a bad hire now. We have nearly 4 years of indisputable concrete evidence.

But let’s not forget that he was widely considered one of the hottest prospects in the profession at the time. Many OSU fans and boosters, for instance, were crushed when we got him before they could. And with good reason: he’d done very well at Dayton.

Anyway, I don’t fault Glass for the hire. Very few people were wary of Archie at that time. My problem is that it became apparent some time in years 2 and 3 that things weren’t progressing...and the prevailing attitude was a shrug of the shoulders combined with an almost religious belief that more patience would eventually bring the results and they were worth waiting for.

But there has never been any actual evidence this was warranted.
I agree. I think Miller was a sound hire who gave us every reason to expect a significant upward turn in the program. For a number of reasons we’ve discussed, it hasn’t happened.

Where IU failed is in the athletic department, wherein the leadership has consisted of people with no practical experience as stewards of individual sports and the respective coaches.. If the in-charge leader was never a player and never a coach, so theres no understanding of the fundamentals or nuances of program building. In essence, poor, untrained leadership begets underachievement.

What I’m afraid this means is that the pressure on Miller is building to the point that he might be on the proverbial hot seat if he has a poor 2021-2022 season, This means we could be looking for another coach in 2 or 3 years, especially if we remain in the bottom half of the BiG.
 

Myhurricane

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I agree. I think Miller was a sound hire who gave us every reason to expect a significant upward turn in the program. For a number of reasons we’ve discussed, it hasn’t happened.

Where IU failed is in the athletic department, wherein the leadership has consisted of people with no practical experience as stewards of individual sports and the respective coaches.. If the in-charge leader was never a player and never a coach, so theres no understanding of the fundamentals or nuances of program building. In essence, poor, untrained leadership begets underachievement.

What I’m afraid this means is that the pressure on Miller is building to the point that he might be on the proverbial hot seat if he has a poor 2021-2022 season, This means we could be looking for another coach in 2 or 3 years, especially if we remain in the bottom half of the BiG.
This is so depressing to consider but is the most realistic outcome.
 

cshartle123

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We have gotten better under Archie every year. There are tons of opportunities left this season. Stop whining about losing to an established, well coached Purdue team.
 
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Myhurricane

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We have gotten better under Archie every year. There are tons of opportunities left this season. Stop whining about losing to an established, well coached Purdue team.
I hope you are kidding. The measure of improvement is against our peers.....and as a team. So how exactly has our team improved? If you think because a player is better this year than last and that this constitutes satisfactory improvement then you clearly do not understand basketball. Improving is expected from the individual player every year and throughout the year. But to excel you have to improve and hone your skills more than your peers.....that is what is not happening at IU. To say..... "well we are better than we used to be", all the while every other Big 10 school has outpaced us is not Indiana basketball. I am sorry Sir but it is the people like you that have led to 20 yrs of poor basketball. Ignorance is bliss but when you understand the game then watching IU is not a blissful experience.
 
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ReallyMadMax

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Nov 13, 2004
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I never thought I'd get to the point where I'd say this but, Steve Alford would have been a better choice.....he could be no worse.

Heck I don't think Archie is any better than Mike Davis.
Maybe Alford could teach them how to shoot FT’s????
 

cshartle123

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Why, in your view, are we not established and well coached in Miller’s fourth season at IU?
We are less established than Purdue, but well coached. Painter has it rolling at Purdue. Credit where credit is due. We have another shot at them later this season.
 

cshartle123

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I hope you are kidding. The measure of improvement is against our peers.....and as a team. So how exactly has our team improved? If you think because a player is better this year than last and that this constitutes satisfactory improvement then you clearly do not understand basketball. Improving is expected from the individual player every year and throughout the year. But to excel you have to improve and hone your skills more than your peers.....that is what is not happening at IU. To say..... "well we are better than we used to be", all the while every other Big 10 school has outpaced us is not Indiana basketball. I am sorry Sir but it is the people like you that have led to 20 yrs of poor basketball. Ignorance is bliss but when you understand the game then watching IU is not a blissful experience.
Actually the measurement of improvement is through statistical analysis.
 

Birnk403

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We are less established than Purdue, but well coached. Painter has it rolling at Purdue. Credit where credit is due. We have another shot at them later this season.
In what ways are we well coached? What deficiencies, if any, do you see in the current IU program, which continues to be below .500 in Miller’s fourth year?
 

cshartle123

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In what ways are we well coached? What deficiencies, if any, do you see in the current IU program, which continues to be below .500 in Miller’s fourth year?
There are plenty of issues to criticize with this team along with the the last three under Archie. That does not mean we aren’t improving each year. Those can both be true.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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There are plenty of issues to criticize with this team along with the the last three under Archie. That does not mean we aren’t improving each year. Those can both be true.
Ugh, you're one of them.

OK, get out the NextGen statistical pivot tables and tell us all why we can't believe our lying eyes. As I've said before, actual improvement is self-evident. It doesn't need to be supported by cherry-picking a series of stats to show that, despite the crap results, we actually are "improving." If a team is actually improving, it really isn't hard for most anybody to see.

Let me put it this way: if we really are improving, then most of our opponents are improving more. And, at the end of the day, the goal is winning -- that's why you want to improve. He hasn't gotten it done. And he is, and should be (and should've been last March) a dead coach walking.
 

Bligedy

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I can't think of one reason TJD would want to return and go through this crap again. They obviously didn't work on his mid-range shot. Even with COVID, he could have been given instruction on what to work on. My guess is he will work on it while making 2 Mil+ in the NBA next year.
It's hard to be a 6'7 guy in the NBA when you can't shoot.