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A serious look at immigration (Coh)

toastedbread

Hall of Famer
Oct 25, 2006
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Will go in a different direction from @Marvin the Martian and discuss raw policy ideas. I'll borrow from CNNs link, which was the first one on google.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/23/us/us-visa-fast-facts/index.html

Non-Immigrant visas:

B1/B2 (Tourist/Business) Will ignore this and I don't think anyone has a problem with genuine tourists coming here.

F-1/M-1: (Student visas) I would like to see a curtailment on international students. I'm not certain where exactly the policy pill lies, but my understanding is that universities are becoming congregations for rich elites to the detriment of American citizens. I have a really big problem with this.

J-1: (exchange) This category needs to be severely curtailed. This is used for summer work and travel, Trump seasonal employees, etc. Aka Cheap labor. I like the idea of students having the ability to live in the United States, but in many cases, they are being taken advantage of by unscrupulous agents and employers. Many are also overstaying their visas. This must be addressed.

C-1/D: (Airplane staff) No one cares.

H-1B: I'll leave this to others. The Indian firms importing cheap workers by the busloads need to be dealt with. I don't have a policy prescription. I believe we have previously discussed on here tying this to the going salary rate with a +.

Immigrant visas:

IR1-CR1(Spouse) I don't think anyone is opposed to this.

IR-2 and CR-2 (unmarried children u21) " "

IR-3: (orphans) " " -Not sure why someone needs to adopt abroad?

IR-4: (domestic orphans born abroad) " "

IR-5: (parents of immigrants o21). I would completely eliminate this category.
Will discuss the solution below.

F1: Unmarried sons and daughters of us citizens and their children u18. (Would probably make the cutoff 21 for the unmarried sons and daughters part)

F2: spouses, minor children and unmarried sons and daughters (21 and older) of green card holders or LPRs. (Would not allow above 21 to move here. Perhaps even lower the age to 18)

F3: These visas are for married sons and daughters of US citizens and their spouses. F3 visas may also be issued to grandchildren of US citizens who are under the age of 18. In 2016, the United States issued 22,590 F3 visas. (eliminate entirely, or possibly eliminate the spouse part)

F4: This visa is for siblings of adult US citizens and their spouses or minor children. In 2016, the United States issued 61,368 F4 visas. (eliminate entirely, or possibly eliminate the spouse part)

DV: (Discussed this in another thread. Require a minimum of college degree and proficiency in English. Target countries who citizens have the least per capita immigration to the US.)

E category (not that familiar with these). At a minimum, I'm fundamentally opposed to the selling of residency and citizenship. Delete investor visas.

SIV (Iraqi translators, etc). No problem here.

Additional thoughts...

1. Remove citizenship based on birth. Absolutely insane. We now have tens of thousands entering the United States each year with the sole intent of giving birth and their children becoming citizens. (Often dirty foreign elites)
At least one parent must be a permanent resident and the child must be born in the United States unless there is a clear intent to return to domicile. (This would be my minimum definition.) If one parent is a citizen then the child receives citizenship automatically.

2. Elimination of travel bans. These are completely unnecessary. Our vetting is currently too extreme. No visa should take longer than 6 months to process.

3. Lower visa fees. These are a profit maker. This is wrong.

4. H1B could be reformed into the merit category. The standards should not be unduly high.

5. DACA children deserve citizenship. Parents must be deported, go to the back of the line, and face fines. To do otherwise is completely unfair to people attempting to immigrate legally who are waiting 10+ years for visas. It's disgusting.

6. Refugees. (Not sure how to best handle this) I prefer that refugees immigrate to states with a country similar to their own. Pressure the gulf Arab states to take in their own. Political refugees is another matter. I do believe the US owes something to Iraqi and Afghan refugees considering the manner in which we have destroyed their homes.

7. How to handle family members and others. Provide for a type of residency for those with ties to the United States who wish to live with their family members. These individuals would not be allowed to work, except in the case that they would meet the qualifications for a merit visa.

8. Travel bans. I support individualized targeted travel bans on criminal and corrupt elites. Kick their families out and confiscate their properties. This is the only way to get launderers like Putin's clan to cooperate.

That's all for now.
 
Will go in a different direction from @Marvin the Martian and discuss raw policy ideas. I'll borrow from CNNs link, which was the first one on google.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/23/us/us-visa-fast-facts/index.html

Non-Immigrant visas:

B1/B2 (Tourist/Business) Will ignore this and I don't think anyone has a problem with genuine tourists coming here.

F-1/M-1: (Student visas) I would like to see a curtailment on international students. I'm not certain where exactly the policy pill lies, but my understanding is that universities are becoming congregations for rich elites to the detriment of American citizens. I have a really big problem with this.

J-1: (exchange) This category needs to be severely curtailed. This is used for summer work and travel, Trump seasonal employees, etc. Aka Cheap labor. I like the idea of students having the ability to live in the United States, but in many cases, they are being taken advantage of by unscrupulous agents and employers. Many are also overstaying their visas. This must be addressed.

C-1/D: (Airplane staff) No one cares.

H-1B: I'll leave this to others. The Indian firms importing cheap workers by the busloads need to be dealt with. I don't have a policy prescription. I believe we have previously discussed on here tying this to the going salary rate with a +.

Immigrant visas:

IR1-CR1(Spouse) I don't think anyone is opposed to this.

IR-2 and CR-2 (unmarried children u21) " "

IR-3: (orphans) " " -Not sure why someone needs to adopt abroad?

IR-4: (domestic orphans born abroad) " "

IR-5: (parents of immigrants o21). I would completely eliminate this category.
Will discuss the solution below.

F1: Unmarried sons and daughters of us citizens and their children u18. (Would probably make the cutoff 21 for the unmarried sons and daughters part)

F2: spouses, minor children and unmarried sons and daughters (21 and older) of green card holders or LPRs. (Would not allow above 21 to move here. Perhaps even lower the age to 18)

F3: These visas are for married sons and daughters of US citizens and their spouses. F3 visas may also be issued to grandchildren of US citizens who are under the age of 18. In 2016, the United States issued 22,590 F3 visas. (eliminate entirely, or possibly eliminate the spouse part)

F4: This visa is for siblings of adult US citizens and their spouses or minor children. In 2016, the United States issued 61,368 F4 visas. (eliminate entirely, or possibly eliminate the spouse part)

DV: (Discussed this in another thread. Require a minimum of college degree and proficiency in English. Target countries who citizens have the least per capita immigration to the US.)

E category (not that familiar with these). At a minimum, I'm fundamentally opposed to the selling of residency and citizenship. Delete investor visas.

SIV (Iraqi translators, etc). No problem here.

Additional thoughts...

1. Remove citizenship based on birth. Absolutely insane. We now have tens of thousands entering the United States each year with the sole intent of giving birth and their children becoming citizens. (Often dirty foreign elites)
At least one parent must be a permanent resident and the child must be born in the United States unless there is a clear intent to return to domicile. (This would be my minimum definition.) If one parent is a citizen then the child receives citizenship automatically.

2. Elimination of travel bans. These are completely unnecessary. Our vetting is currently too extreme. No visa should take longer than 6 months to process.

3. Lower visa fees. These are a profit maker. This is wrong.

4. H1B could be reformed into the merit category. The standards should not be unduly high.

5. DACA children deserve citizenship. Parents must be deported, go to the back of the line, and face fines. To do otherwise is completely unfair to people attempting to immigrate legally who are waiting 10+ years for visas. It's disgusting.

6. Refugees. (Not sure how to best handle this) I prefer that refugees immigrate to states with a country similar to their own. Pressure the gulf Arab states to take in their own. Political refugees is another matter. I do believe the US owes something to Iraqi and Afghan refugees considering the manner in which we have destroyed their homes.

7. How to handle family members and others. Provide for a type of residency for those with ties to the United States who wish to live with their family members. These individuals would not be allowed to work, except in the case that they would meet the qualifications for a merit visa.

8. Travel bans. I support individualized targeted travel bans on criminal and corrupt elites. Kick their families out and confiscate their properties. This is the only way to get launderers like Putin's clan to cooperate.

That's all for now.

I have no opinion on most of these. I agree with you about anchor babies.

That said, H-1 B has been abused—by the business community. Strong political forces, much up from the GOP side, support this abuse. That needs to be fixed.

Generally, we already have on the books laws prohibiting immigrants who will be a public charge. However, through various regs, the public charge issue has been watered down. The authorities consider the “net” economic effect, so a public charge prohibition can be effectively waived. Also benefits like SNAP/foodstamps and Medicaid don’t count. The public charge prohibition needs to be tightened and enforced.

My main interest is a robust immigration system that is targeted to skills where we have shortages and to people who won’t be a public charge.
 
My main interest is a robust immigration system that is targeted to skills where we have shortages and to people who won’t be a public charge.

obviously what you meant, is targeted to skills where Americans won't work as cheap as low wage immigrants from 3rd world nations.

we have virtually zero jobs that require skills Americans don't have.

we have lots of jobs though, even skilled ones, that employers can hire low wage immigrants to do much cheaper, and with little protection from their employer who now controls their ability to stay in the country..

but you knew this when you posted your crapola, and posted it anyway.
 
obviously what you meant, is targeted to skills where Americans won't work as cheap as low wage immigrants from 3rd world nations.

we have virtually zero jobs that require skills Americans don't have.

we have lots of jobs though, even skilled ones, that employers can hire low wage immigrants to do much cheaper, and with little protection from their employer who now controls their ability to stay in the country..

but you knew this when you posted your crapola, and posted it anyway.

High-level/basic research; tech has a big shortage of US-born Americans. Most PHD students are foreign.
 
Product development/research in tech. Upstream

what percent of even skilled US jobs occupied by foreign workers on visas are you referring to?

the ones for which there are no qualified US workers to hire, regardless of salary.

i could add that there is a shortage of world class US born soccer players as well, but while high level US players might feel the hurt from imports, i don't think they are affecting the overall US economy and job market.

once you get to an elite enough level in any profession that requires a rare skill, music, sports, entertainment, whatever, the competition becomes global.

most jobs though, even skilled ones, don't require that elite an applicant, even if the employer would desire one at the right price.

and when talking elite level tech, are those jobs necessarily even local based anyway?

on a side note, are no US tech PHD applicants getting turned away, or are some getting crowded out by foreign applicants paying foreign student tuition?
 
what percent of even skilled US jobs occupied by foreign workers on visas are you referring to?

the ones for which there are no qualified US workers to hire, regardless of salary.

i could add that there is a shortage of world class US born soccer players as well, but while high level US players might feel the hurt from imports, i don't think they are affecting the overall US economy and job market.

once you get to an elite enough level in any profession that requires a rare skill, music, sports, entertainment, whatever, the competition becomes global.

most jobs though, even skilled ones, don't require that elite an applicant, even if the employer would desire one at the right price.

and when talking elite level tech, are those jobs necessarily even local based anyway?

on a side note, are no US tech PHD applicants getting turned away, or are some getting crowded out by foreign applicants paying foreign student tuition?

Few Americans do PhDs, certainly, in the areas I am familiar with. Based on my knowledge of the people I know over the last 20-30 years, you can safely say that most or at least 70% PhD students at the elite schools doing basic research levels are foreign. They may get their citizenship later but not when they applied.
 
what percent of even skilled US jobs occupied by foreign workers on visas are you referring to?

the ones for which there are no qualified US workers to hire, regardless of salary.

i could add that there is a shortage of world class US born soccer players as well, but while high level US players might feel the hurt from imports, i don't think they are affecting the overall US economy and job market.

once you get to an elite enough level in any profession that requires a rare skill, music, sports, entertainment, whatever, the competition becomes global.

most jobs though, even skilled ones, don't require that elite an applicant, even if the employer would desire one at the right price.

and when talking elite level tech, are those jobs necessarily even local based anyway?

on a side note, are no US tech PHD applicants getting turned away, or are some getting crowded out by foreign applicants paying foreign student tuition?
Few Americans do PhDs, certainly, in the areas I am familiar with. Based on my knowledge of the people I know over the last 20-30 years, you can safely say that most or at least 70% PhD students at the elite schools doing basic research levels are foreign. They may get their citizenship later but not when they applied.

Tech type PHDs rarely require tuition. And yes, americans are getting pushed out in some cases. We can quibble that those spots belong to the most deserving considering the importance of the work. However, the desire should be to make certain that technological innovation remains in the US and that the knowledge doesn't return home, possibly to adversarial states.

My issue is with certain undergrad and non technical graduate programs where foreign students with $ are pushing out Americans and raising tuition costs.
 
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High-level/basic research; tech has a big shortage of US-born Americans. Most PHD students are foreign.

Exactly. And that is the point. Why would industry get behind fixing our broken educational system if we have no need to do that?

We have millions of kids dropping out and not being educated, all while thinking getting high is all there is. Why should we encourage education and good jobs for foreigners while we have so many kids here roaming the streets?
 
Exactly. And that is the point. Why would industry get behind fixing our broken educational system if we have no need to do that?

We have millions of kids dropping out and not being educated, all while thinking getting high is all there is. Why should we encourage education and good jobs for foreigners while we have so many kids here roaming the streets?

Smart local kids want to make money or to pay their student loans back asap. There are only so many tiger moms around.
The intellectual pursuit of a PhD doesn't hold water over making $$$.
Committing a further six to seven years of financial hardship when you are 21/22y.o isn't a dream for many American kids.
Blame it on finance or culture.

Sacrifice and prestige of a PhD is bigger in some cultures than the lure of making big $$.
 
I have no opinion on most of these. I agree with you about anchor babies.

That said, H-1 B has been abused—by the business community. Strong political forces, much up from the GOP side, support this abuse. That needs to be fixed.

Generally, we already have on the books laws prohibiting immigrants who will be a public charge. However, through various regs, the public charge issue has been watered down. The authorities consider the “net” economic effect, so a public charge prohibition can be effectively waived. Also benefits like SNAP/foodstamps and Medicaid don’t count. The public charge prohibition needs to be tightened and enforced.

My main interest is a robust immigration system that is targeted to skills where we have shortages and to people who won’t be a public charge.

This leaves me wondering how our courts allow unaccompanied young ladies to come here for an abortion that is presumably illegal where they come from.
 
Will go in a different direction from @Marvin the Martian and discuss raw policy ideas. I'll borrow from CNNs link, which was the first one on google.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/23/us/us-visa-fast-facts/index.html

Non-Immigrant visas:

B1/B2 (Tourist/Business) Will ignore this and I don't think anyone has a problem with genuine tourists coming here.

F-1/M-1: (Student visas) I would like to see a curtailment on international students. I'm not certain where exactly the policy pill lies, but my understanding is that universities are becoming congregations for rich elites to the detriment of American citizens. I have a really big problem with this.

J-1: (exchange) This category needs to be severely curtailed. This is used for summer work and travel, Trump seasonal employees, etc. Aka Cheap labor. I like the idea of students having the ability to live in the United States, but in many cases, they are being taken advantage of by unscrupulous agents and employers. Many are also overstaying their visas. This must be addressed.

C-1/D: (Airplane staff) No one cares.

H-1B: I'll leave this to others. The Indian firms importing cheap workers by the busloads need to be dealt with. I don't have a policy prescription. I believe we have previously discussed on here tying this to the going salary rate with a +.

Immigrant visas:

IR1-CR1(Spouse) I don't think anyone is opposed to this.

IR-2 and CR-2 (unmarried children u21) " "

IR-3: (orphans) " " -Not sure why someone needs to adopt abroad?

IR-4: (domestic orphans born abroad) " "

IR-5: (parents of immigrants o21). I would completely eliminate this category.
Will discuss the solution below.

F1: Unmarried sons and daughters of us citizens and their children u18. (Would probably make the cutoff 21 for the unmarried sons and daughters part)

F2: spouses, minor children and unmarried sons and daughters (21 and older) of green card holders or LPRs. (Would not allow above 21 to move here. Perhaps even lower the age to 18)

F3: These visas are for married sons and daughters of US citizens and their spouses. F3 visas may also be issued to grandchildren of US citizens who are under the age of 18. In 2016, the United States issued 22,590 F3 visas. (eliminate entirely, or possibly eliminate the spouse part)

F4: This visa is for siblings of adult US citizens and their spouses or minor children. In 2016, the United States issued 61,368 F4 visas. (eliminate entirely, or possibly eliminate the spouse part)

DV: (Discussed this in another thread. Require a minimum of college degree and proficiency in English. Target countries who citizens have the least per capita immigration to the US.)

E category (not that familiar with these). At a minimum, I'm fundamentally opposed to the selling of residency and citizenship. Delete investor visas.

SIV (Iraqi translators, etc). No problem here.

Additional thoughts...

1. Remove citizenship based on birth. Absolutely insane. We now have tens of thousands entering the United States each year with the sole intent of giving birth and their children becoming citizens. (Often dirty foreign elites)
At least one parent must be a permanent resident and the child must be born in the United States unless there is a clear intent to return to domicile. (This would be my minimum definition.) If one parent is a citizen then the child receives citizenship automatically.

2. Elimination of travel bans. These are completely unnecessary. Our vetting is currently too extreme. No visa should take longer than 6 months to process.

3. Lower visa fees. These are a profit maker. This is wrong.

4. H1B could be reformed into the merit category. The standards should not be unduly high.

5. DACA children deserve citizenship. Parents must be deported, go to the back of the line, and face fines. To do otherwise is completely unfair to people attempting to immigrate legally who are waiting 10+ years for visas. It's disgusting.

6. Refugees. (Not sure how to best handle this) I prefer that refugees immigrate to states with a country similar to their own. Pressure the gulf Arab states to take in their own. Political refugees is another matter. I do believe the US owes something to Iraqi and Afghan refugees considering the manner in which we have destroyed their homes.

7. How to handle family members and others. Provide for a type of residency for those with ties to the United States who wish to live with their family members. These individuals would not be allowed to work, except in the case that they would meet the qualifications for a merit visa.

8. Travel bans. I support individualized targeted travel bans on criminal and corrupt elites. Kick their families out and confiscate their properties. This is the only way to get launderers like Putin's clan to cooperate.

That's all for now.


I have a different angle on immigration. How about a method for American citizens to immigrant to a better, safer place within our country. Example: there are tens of thousands of Americans living in deplorable conditions where they and their children risk violence and even death on a daily basis in places like Chicago, Detroit, DC, etc.etc. They are trapped Shouldn’t these people receive the same opportunities to relocate that we are willing to give to noncitizens from other countries??

I am not against the type of immigration discussed here. I agree with most of the suggestions and it is a great dialogue but...
 
I have a different angle on immigration. How about a method for American citizens to immigrant to a better, safer place within our country. Example: there are tens of thousands of Americans living in deplorable conditions where they and their children risk violence and even death on a daily basis in places like Chicago, Detroit, DC, etc.etc. They are trapped Shouldn’t these people receive the same opportunities to relocate that we are willing to give to noncitizens from other countries??

I am not against the type of immigration discussed here. I agree with most of the suggestions and it is a great dialogue but...

How is anyone legally prevented from internally migrating? News to me.
 
How is anyone legally prevented from internally migrating? News to me.

Like people in foreign countries they are trapped in a culture. They need financial support to move, find housing, etc. the situation is different I agree but the need is every bit as great and to me greater because they are Americans
 
How is anyone legally prevented from internally migrating? News to me.

I find it interesting that we are very compassionate and understanding of the plight of immigrants from outside our country but at the same time we are willing to turn a blind eye to our own. Is this embedded cultural racism?
 
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I find it interesting that we are very compassionate and understanding of the plight of immigrants from outside our country but at the same time we are willing to turn a blind eye to our own. Is this embedded cultural racism?

Excellent point. We have homeless living in tents, under bridges, standing on street corners looking for handouts, many of whom are veterans and addicted. We spend money on food stamps, medicaid, and even public shools for illegal immigrants, or legal immigrants for that matter. Mental health treatment is a huge underfunded problem. A deputy sheriff was shot and killed a few weeks ago here, 4 more deputies and 2 civilians were wounded. The shooter was mentally ill and untreated. We don't have the money to do everything. The feds are not serious about illegal immigration, and in fact encouraged thousands of youngsters to enter the country just a few years ago. The state and local government must provide health care and education for these kids. States can't go into debt, so money is taken from roads, corrections, health care and other places.
 
We spend money on food stamps, medicaid for legal immigrants for that matter.

That's a lie. Very few legal immigrants on these programs. In fact they are usually required to have a sponsor who signs that these folks won't receive aid. Legal immigrants contribute way more to taxes/economy than they take. The slime of the earth does not immigrate here.
 
That's a lie. Very few legal immigrants on these programs. In fact they are usually required to have a sponsor who signs that these folks won't receive aid. Legal immigrants contribute way more to taxes/economy than they take. The slime of the earth does not immigrate here.

Illegal Immigrants
 
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That's a lie. Very few legal immigrants on these programs. In fact they are usually required to have a sponsor who signs that these folks won't receive aid. Legal immigrants contribute way more to taxes/economy than they take. The slime of the earth does not immigrate here.


Google "Welfare Use by Legal and Illegal Immigrant Households" by the Center for Immigration Studies and you will read the following:

---"An estimated 49% of households headed by legal immigrants used one or more welfare programs in 2012" (v. 30% headed by native citizens); and
--"Less educated legal immigrants make extensive use of every type of welfare program, including cash, food, Medicaid, and housing."
 
Like people in foreign countries they are trapped in a culture. They need financial support to move, find housing, etc. the situation is different I agree but the need is every bit as great and to me greater because they are Americans

The urban Democratic political machines would never let that happen. They need the votes and cash that come along with the urban poor.
 
Google "Welfare Use by Legal and Illegal Immigrant Households" by the Center for Immigration Studies and you will read the following:

---"An estimated 49% of households headed by legal immigrants used one or more welfare programs in 2012" (v. 30% headed by native citizens); and
--"Less educated legal immigrants make extensive use of every type of welfare program, including cash, food, Medicaid, and housing."

Don't trust "facts" and "studies" from a white supremacist org.
 
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