A progressive parent’s rant about the politics surrounding school reopening

outside shooter

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Many Teacher Unions are a disgrace.

I agree with the Biden administration, that teachers need to follow the science, follow the guidelines, suck it up, and educate. Unless the districts really are planning on cramming people in like sardines and not following CDC guidelines. If they can't follow guidelines due to lack of funds, we need to help them out.

I don't think willfully not following guidelines and CDC safety advice is what is going on in most places, like Chicago.

So...indeed... Those buttercups need to suck it up.
 

mashnut

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Feb 22, 2018
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It's amusing to me that the same people who suddenly see in-person education as a necessity and something our society can't live without are the same ones who throw a fit any time underpaid teachers ask for more money. Why doesn't the free market apply here? Offer more money and you'll get more teachers back in the classroom, if this is so important we should be willing to spend money on it right?
 

HooDatGuy

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It's amusing to me that the same people who suddenly see in-person education as a necessity and something our society can't live without are the same ones who throw a fit any time underpaid teachers ask for more money. Why doesn't the free market apply here? Offer more money and you'll get more teachers back in the classroom, if this is so important we should be willing to spend money on it right?

Counter point. The hero complex these teachers have due to the constant fawning over them being “heroes” has enabled this sort of spoiled brat behavior.

We need people working in person at sanitation plants and grocery’s stores as well otherwise society grinds to a halt. Let’s get you out there advocating for their pay raise.

Teachers get paid plenty for working 8 months out of the year.

Edit: did you really ask why the free market doesn’t apply here? Have you ever heard of private schools? That’s the free market applied to teacher salaries. Are you advocating we give them private school teacher (who are in the classroom) salaries?
 
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mashnut

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Counter point. The hero complex these teachers have due to the constant fawning over them being “heroes” has enabled this sort of spoiled brat behavior.

We need people working in person at sanitation plants and grocery’s stores as well otherwise society grinds to a halt. Let’s get you out there advocating for their pay raise.

Teachers get paid plenty for working 8 months out of the year.

Edit: did you really ask why the free market doesn’t apply here? Have you ever heard of private schools? That’s the free market applied to teacher salaries. Are you advocating we give them private school teacher (who are in the classroom) salaries?

I mean, sure, pull in other places that are also criminally underpaid, but that's not what we were talking about. I've said in other threads I think one of the big benefits of a UBI would be the possibility of a more symmetric employer-employee relationship where you could get something like a free market rather than the implicit threat employers hold over employees today.

On teachers specifically though, I don't know a single teacher who doesn't work through the summer. They clean and reorganize their rooms themselves, they plan curriculum, they work far beyond the school hours the rest of the year to grade and prep and plan. The 8 month argument doesn't hold water with me (and most schools have more like a 2 month summer these days anyway).

You also seem to want it both ways. School is so important that teachers should have to go in to work without adequate safety precautions, but also they shouldn't be praised as heroes for doing it. I want them to get the support and compensation commensurate with their immense impact on the health of our society, I want them to have access to the vaccine, and I want them to be back in person educating our children, I think my position is pretty consistent.
 

HooDatGuy

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I mean, sure, pull in other places that are also criminally underpaid, but that's not what we were talking about. I've said in other threads I think one of the big benefits of a UBI would be the possibility of a more symmetric employer-employee relationship where you could get something like a free market rather than the implicit threat employers hold over employees today.

On teachers specifically though, I don't know a single teacher who doesn't work through the summer. They clean and reorganize their rooms themselves, they plan curriculum, they work far beyond the school hours the rest of the year to grade and prep and plan. The 8 month argument doesn't hold water with me (and most schools have more like a 2 month summer these days anyway).

You also seem to want it both ways. School is so important that teachers should have to go in to work without adequate safety precautions, but also they shouldn't be praised as heroes for doing it. I want them to get the support and compensation commensurate with their immense impact on the health of our society, I want them to have access to the vaccine, and I want them to be back in person educating our children, I think my position is pretty consistent.

If you want to make a UBI argument go start another thread and make one. Don’t claim teachers are underpaid based on nothing. There is limitless data reflecting the delta in hours worked between them and average 9-5’ers. Who also increasingly work outside of work hours.

Your anecdotes mean nothing.
 

mashnut

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If you want to make a UBI argument go start another thread and make one. Don’t claim teachers are underpaid based on nothing. There is limitless data reflecting the delta in hours worked between them and average 9-5’ers. Who also increasingly work outside of work hours.

Your anecdotes mean nothing.

The Economic Policy Institute disagrees with your analysis. What "limitless data" are you using, I'd be happy to read your sources. Bonus points if yours takes into account education and expertise level in comparisons to other industries. I'll understand if your hall monitor duties keeping this thread on track interfere with your ability to respond. You also still haven't answered my question on why the free market wouldn't work here, current public school conditions are such that not enough teachers will do the job for the current wages, why is raising wages until the supply and demand meet any different than the free market approach to solving any other problem?
 

HooDatGuy

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The Economic Policy Institute disagrees with your analysis. What "limitless data" are you using, I'd be happy to read your sources. Bonus points if yours takes into account education and expertise level in comparisons to other industries. I'll understand if your hall monitor duties keeping this thread on track interfere with your ability to respond. You also still haven't answered my question on why the free market wouldn't work here, current public school conditions are such that not enough teachers will do the job for the current wages, why is raising wages until the supply and demand meet any different than the free market approach to solving any other problem?

At the gym now making you look foolish in between sets.

Let’s start with the fact that your entire premise is based on a falsehood:



When I get home I’ll debunk the rest of your nonsense, gimme a couple hours I’ll do it while watching the Hoosiers.
 

INRanger27

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On teachers specifically though, I don't know a single teacher who doesn't work through the summer. They clean and reorganize their rooms themselves, they plan curriculum, they work far beyond the school hours the rest of the year to grade and prep and plan. The 8 month argument doesn't hold water with me (and most schools have more like a 2 month summer these days anyway).
Sorry, I come from and am married into a family of teachers and none of the dozen or so teachers in my life “work through the summer”. My wife goes in a day early and sets up her classroom.

I agree that in most red state places the teachers are underpaid. I live in a blue state and in our area they are NOT underpaid. They start low but after ten years they are doing very well with incredible health benefits.

But let’s not kid ourselves that teachers work a full year. My wife’s contract is for 181 school days. That’s 70% of working days which is 8.5 months.

And to a T, all of the teachers in my life will tell you the unions suck.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
Sorry, I come from and am married into a family of teachers and none of the dozen or so teachers in my life “work through the summer”. My wife goes in a day early and sets up her classroom.

I agree that in most red state places the teachers are underpaid. I live in a blue state and in our area they are NOT underpaid. They start low but after ten years they are doing very well with incredible health benefits.

But let’s not kid ourselves that teachers work a full year. My wife’s contract is for 181 school days. That’s 70% of working days which is 8.5 months.

And to a T, all of the teachers in my life will tell you the unions suck.
Forgive me for being anal, since I think your points are all very good, and I don't disagree, but just to clarify the math...

You're basing that on 260 working days a year (52*5 is how I assume you got that number), but for most professionals, there are not 260 working days a year. They also get 2-4 weeks of vacation, plus certain holidays.

Teachers still work fewer days than they do, but it's not quite as extreme as the 70% you cite.
 

INRanger27

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Forgive me for being anal, since I think your points are all very good, and I don't disagree, but just to clarify the math...

You're basing that on 260 working days a year (52*5 is how I assume you got that number), but for most professionals, there are not 260 working days a year. They also get 2-4 weeks of vacation, plus certain holidays.

Teachers still work fewer days than they do, but it's not quite as extreme as the 70% you cite.
Ahem. Both our maths are correct. I didn’t claim they worked 70% of what professionals do. I claimed they worked 70% of workdays which to your check of my math is correct.

So at the highest level of vacation (4 weeks), a professional will work 85% of working days. But I believe the average professional gets 2 weeks so they work much more.

I know we’re saying the same thing and that you acknowledge my points, which I appreciate, but we can get into a better debate. For example, I am of the opinion that unions hold teachers back more than they help. Principally because it puts all teachers on a level playing field and doesn’t incentivize excellent performance. All teachers are paid equally based on a salary table with some slight edits based on years of education and degree types. This would incense me if I was a top performing teacher.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
Ahem. Both our maths are correct. I didn’t claim they worked 70% of what professionals do. I claimed they worked 70% of workdays which to your check of my math is correct.

So at the highest level of vacation (4 weeks), a professional will work 85% of working days. But I believe the average professional gets 2 weeks so they work much more.

I know we’re saying the same thing and that you acknowledge my points, which I appreciate, but we can get into a better debate. For example, I am of the opinion that unions hold teachers back more than they help. Principally because it puts all teachers on a level playing field and doesn’t incentivize excellent performance. All teachers are paid equally based on a salary table with some slight edits based on years of education and degree types. This would incense me if I was a top performing teacher.
Yes, we could have a better debate, if I were more prepared. I'm not a big fan of teachers unions, but I'm also not versed enough in the details to adequately explain why. So the meaningless little anal shit we disagree-but-not-really on was all I had.
 
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INRanger27

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When accounting for cost of living?
It’s a hard job, bro. Really hard. Good teachers should be paid very well everywhere.

Unions hold back any kind of performance-driven incentives. All teachers in a district or a consortium are paid equally and that’s stupid.
 
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HooDatGuy

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The Economic Policy Institute disagrees with your analysis. What "limitless data" are you using, I'd be happy to read your sources. Bonus points if yours takes into account education and expertise level in comparisons to other industries. I'll understand if your hall monitor duties keeping this thread on track interfere with your ability to respond. You also still haven't answered my question on why the free market wouldn't work here, current public school conditions are such that not enough teachers will do the job for the current wages, why is raising wages until the supply and demand meet any different than the free market approach to solving any other problem?

I would quibble with your source for that article as it’s a think tank funded by public sector unions.

No matter how you splice it the hours are less: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.br...d/2019/06/12/do-teachers-work-long-hours/amp/

How many years they were in school shouldn’t be the determination. Most K-8 don’t spend more than 4-5 years in college anyway and not as difficult as other advanced degrees.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
It’s a hard job, bro. Really hard. Good teachers should be paid very well everywhere.

Unions hold back any kind of performance-driven incentives. All teachers in a district or a consortium are paid equally and that’s stupid.
This is one of the things I was talking about when I said I was unprepared to speak on the topic intelligently. I have this inkling that teaching should be competitive, and I'm not sure unions help that.

I also don't know that unions for public employees are even at all necessary. Unions for private industry, absolutely, but public employees have legal protections already that cover many of the reasons for having unions in the first place.
 

HooDatGuy

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It’s a hard job, bro. Really hard. Good teachers should be paid very well everywhere.

Unions hold back any kind of performance-driven incentives. All teachers in a district or a consortium are paid equally and that’s stupid.

I would accept paying them more on average if we could take the extra money from the bloated public education administrative state.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
I’m not sure I follow, 55-70% on instruction still seems to low to my sniff test, but I’m not an expert on what a healthy instruction/ administrative expense ratio should be.
I think that's an unfair characterization, although a more precise definition of both "instruction support" and "other" would be necessary to get the bottom of it.
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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Counter point. The hero complex these teachers have due to the constant fawning over them being “heroes” has enabled this sort of spoiled brat behavior.

We need people working in person at sanitation plants and grocery’s stores as well otherwise society grinds to a halt. Let’s get you out there advocating for their pay raise.

Teachers get paid plenty for working 8 months out of the year.

Edit: did you really ask why the free market doesn’t apply here? Have you ever heard of private schools? That’s the free market applied to teacher salaries. Are you advocating we give them private school teacher (who are in the classroom) salaries?
Not that I plan on disagreeing with you, but I wouldn't want you speak from ignorance. Apply for a position as a substitute teacher in any urban school area, take a position in a middle or high school, and come back and post about your exploits.
Otherwise...
 

Spartans9312

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The Biden admin. seems to also be telling the teachers unions to suck it up and educate the kids safely, opposite to their purported political agenda. Good science doesn't follow a political agenda. Good science shouldn't be ignored just becuase it conflicts with an agenda, a situation we became used to Jan 20, 2017-Jan 20, 2021
Biden is insisting that schools must reopen soon...and also that the only way for them to reopen is to authorize more than $120 billion in spending, most of which wouldn't roll out for years. It doesn't make much sense.
 

Spartans9312

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Not that I plan on disagreeing with you, but I wouldn't want you speak from ignorance. Apply for a position as a substitute teacher in any urban school area, take a position in a middle or high school, and come back and post about your exploits.
Otherwise...

It was a hard question for Kamala Harris to answer, as well.
 
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Spartans9312

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She’s insta-fired (or corrected) in my administration. Man up and tell the truth. Even if it means saying, I’m not at liberty to answer that question. Or something to that effect.

Wow. But I'm not surprised
 
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HooDatGuy

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These are the times where we really miss Trump. Could you imagine him brow beating the teachers unions over this? Oh man that would be gold. He was always fun when he was on attack.
 

Spartans9312

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These are the times where we really miss Trump. Could you imagine him brow beating the teachers unions over this? Oh man that would be gold. He was always fun when he was on attack.
Remote learning is the norm for more than 75% of New York City public school students. A disproportionate share are economically disadvantaged. And now you can add academically disadvantaged. For all of Trump's warts he and DeVos were calling for schools to be opened back in July.
 

Spartans9312

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"Normal" in September 2022 under this scenario will not much resemble September 2020, in terms of enrollment numbers, funding, and many things besides.
 

iuwclurker

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Wow. But I'm not surprised
The NFL faced not having a season and they got real. It turned out that they could control destiny instead of having it control them. That’s a lesson learned for all of us. That’s right here in the United States. That’s not Taiwan, that’s not New Zealand.

The exasperating question is, why can’t people just be real? The technology and science is there to win this war. Let’s win it.

My hunch is that there is a second lesson to be learned here. Effective leaders are few and far between.
 

Spartans9312

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The NFL faced not having a season and they got real. It turned out that they could control destiny instead of having it control them. That’s a lesson learned for all of us. That’s right here in the United States. That’s not Taiwan, that’s not New Zealand.

The exasperating question is, why can’t people just be real? The technology and science is there to win this war. Let’s win it.

My hunch is that there is a second lesson to be learned here. Effective leaders are few and far between.

Carranza is gone from New York's K-12 system. Although he is gone, his influence will live on not just in New York, but all over the country.
 

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