A black security guard caught a shooting suspect — only to be shot by police minutes later

[sglowrider]

The death of Jemel Roberson shows that black men aren’t allowed to be the good guy with a gun.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...erson-police-shooting-security-guard-illinois

In the early hours of Sunday morning, 26-year-old Jemel Roberson was working security at a bar in the Chicago suburbs when a shooting broke out. Shortly after Roberson subdued the suspect at gunpoint, police arrived — and fatally shot the armed security guard as he pinned the suspect to the ground.

Roberson “had somebody on the ground with his knee in back, with his gun in his back, like, ‘Don’t move,’” witness Adam Harris told local news outlet WGN. When police arrived, an officer immediately opened fire, killing Roberson, as witnesses told them to stop. “Everybody was screaming out, ‘Security!’ He was a security guard,” Harris said.
“They still did their job, and saw a black man with a gun, and basically killed him,” he added.

WTF!

 

[Thyrsis]

The death of Jemel Roberson shows that black men aren’t allowed to be the good guy with a gun.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...erson-police-shooting-security-guard-illinois



WTF!

I'm sure Mr. Roberson just did it wrong. He probably used the wrong knee in the back or he gripped his weapon gangland style or failed to hogtie the perp in a in a timely fashion in the way that a legit gunowner would have. All telltale signs that reasonably would have been interpreted by law enforcement on the scene and quickly explain away much of this. In fact, I'm sure if we look into Mr. Roberson's background, we'll find even more that justifies what happened on scene.

Okay, that's unfair, but it's frustrating that seemingly so little is done in the wake of these events to push for revised training methods and strategies. That call for attention to the issue is in no way a condemnation of police; they do a critical and dangerous job and we owe them gratitude. But that demand for gratitude has turned into a rejection of any criticism whatsoever. That teflon status will yield and has yielded bad results.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The death of Jemel Roberson shows that black men aren’t allowed to be the good guy with a gun.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...erson-police-shooting-security-guard-illinois



WTF!

I just started reading "Stumbling on Happiness". The author makes a point about fight or flight. If a human were devising a robot, the robot would probably have instructions when it sees something to then identify it then take action. That order makes sense to us humans. But it is not the order evolution has left our brains with. Evolution places fight or flight at the very base of the brain. The higher brain powers that control identification kick in later. In the example given in the book, a human will react to seeing a rabid wolverine out of the corner of their eye before the brain tells them it is a rabid wolverine. They have hooked people up to sensors and measured the phenomena.

I have long suspected that many of us have latent racism. It goes back a long way, reading articles from the civil war era there was a lot of fear of the black male. Not just the obvious fear we would expect to be played up, but it seems the white owners were really and truly terrified of the black male. I'm not at all sure we have eliminated that. I suspect, and admit I have no evidence, that our law enforcement community is reacting to a black man with a gun before their higher cognitive powers kick in. The case in Texas where the officer entered into the wrong apartment and saw the apartment owner and shot him would be another example. Her brain had to be screaming that she was in the wrong place, but the more base part of the brain that controls fight or flight was shutting that out.

I don't have a great answer. Obviously training is critical but I would assume they are getting a lot of training in identifying threats (and I assume built in are scenarios where the black is not a threat). Maybe the scenarios aren't real enough? But it seems obvious from these cases there is still a problem out there. I would think if these officers are clearly racist, they would be eliminated from the force. So whatever is happening is happening at a subconscious level. How do we retrain that level? Maybe the feds need to open up some money for studies on how to eliminate this issue (whether it be because of the theory laid out above or some other reason).

 

[iu_a_att]

I have long suspected that many of us have latent racism.

Many of us have implicit biases that are particularly potent in moments of crisis. Those biases are unconscious and need not have anything to do with our conscious attitudes. It would be really helpful to our national debate if we could distinguish between racism, that is a conscious attitude, and implicit biases which are not. Conscious attitudes, for example, ought to be amenable to appeals to reason and morality. Unconscious attitudes are much less so.

There is debate about the importance of metrics of bias e.g., the implicit attitudes test. There is debate about the effectiveness of programs to counter implicit biases. But I don't think there is any reasonable debate about the existence of such biases and their ability to impact behavior.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40124781
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-think-about-implicit-bias/

 

[MrBing]

The death of Jemel Roberson shows that black men aren’t allowed to be the good guy with a gun.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...erson-police-shooting-security-guard-illinois



WTF!

We need to wait on more facts. My emotional side says this is all f*cked up. My logical side says I don't know all the circumstances yet and it would be unfair to convict the cop now. I will wait.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

There are other, and I think more relevant, latent factors in play here which are part of setting the stage for this horrible event:

First, this is Chicago, and the shooter was a cop in a community with scores of shootings every month.

Second this was a bar that found it necessary to have armed security at work. This suggests the establishment had a reputation which was known to law enforcement.

Third, the 911 call and the subsequent dispatch likely informed the officer that there was an active shooter at the bar.

Fourth, the active shooting at another bar that killed many was fresh news.

Fifth, Upon arrival there was yelling and screaming at the cops adding to the commotion.

The cops don't act in a vacuum. There is a lot more to know here. The cops are trained to use verbal commands before the use of deadly force. Did the the cop yell anything at the victim? The news reports said the crowd was yelling at the cops before the shooting we don't know who heard what. We don't know what the cop thinks he saw and what he thought upon opening fire.

There is substantial training about how to confront an active shooter. The strategy and training evolves. Previously, the training was that the first cop on the scene is to wait for backup and confront the shooter with overwhelming force. That strategy and training has evolved to the first cop on the scene to immediately confront the active shooter. (Innocent lives have been lost while waiting for backup) While I don't know, I'd bet that the recent California bar shooting was the subject of the routine patrol meetings at the agency involved. This cop was responding to another active shooter in a bar.

The training scenarios, role playing, and active threat exercises, cops routinely train for is no substitute for split second reactions on the scene. In many cases, cops react, they don't ponder and then decide. Split second reactions are difficult to train.

A very sad case for all involved.

Context...nuance...Chicago!

 

[Noodle]

I went through active shooter training last week. It was, to say the least, a very difficult class from an emotional standpoint. For starters, the instructors discussed in detail a number of high profile mass shootings--including Virginia Tech, where a high school classmate and fellow Purdue grad (Kevin Granata) lost his life after saving 20 of his students. The most difficult was a video of the Columbine massacre. We only learned that it was a reenactment after sitting through 5 minutes (that seemed like 30) of excruciatingly painful images and sounds.

The number one thing in any active shooter situation is to get out. Create as much space as you can between yourself and the shooter. Don't try to hide or play dead or, worse yet, talk to the shooter. And if you cannot get out, barricade yourself while also looking for another way out (through windows, through drywall, etc.).

We also learned about the mindset of law enforcement in active shooter situations. Their first goal, by far, is to neutralize the shooter. They are not going to stop to help the wounded, and you better have your hands visible and follow their orders to a T.

Now, this shooting in Chicago looks bad, very bad. But, as MrBing said, it would be unfair to convict the cop (even in the court of public opinion) without knowing more. Given all of the recent and tragic shootings in this country, I can understand the stress law enforcement must feel in an active shooter situation. I also hope that law enforcement continues to learn, and is receptive to learning from tragedies such as this.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

The death of Jemel Roberson shows that black men aren’t allowed to be the good guy with a gun.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...erson-police-shooting-security-guard-illinois



WTF!

I recently caught flack for a post about the Louisville grocery store shooting by suggesting police would have shot up the innocent black guy in the parking lot if he had a gun instead of the armed white guy who was killing people.

 

[MrBing]

I recently caught flack for a post about the Louisville grocery store shooting by suggesting police would have shot up the innocent black guy in the parking lot if he had a gun instead of the armed white guy who was killing people.

My gut tells me that's more right than wrong but we don't know that it's right. It's speculation so we don't know. It's not a fact that it would happen. I bet someone took offense to that being presented as factual but I didn't see it so I'm speculating. I think the biggest problem here on the Cooler is people on both sides tend to see everything as right or wrong or black and white and nothing in between. The other person is always "wrong" or a "SJW" or "racist" or a left or right wing nut instead of a person with different opinions. If we tried to see both sides of arguments this place would be much better for productive discussions and we'd see less of the food fights that almost every thread becomes. That's what I see anyway and it's why I've been avoiding this place more and spending less time lurking here and more time on the sports boards. It's probably too much to hope for better conversations about politics. I know that's not possible for some of the people here also. So big IU game Wednesday night!

 

[Thyrsis]

My gut tells me that's more right than wrong but we don't know that it's right. It's speculation so we don't know. It's not a fact that it would happen. I bet someone took offense to that being presented as factual but I didn't see it so I'm speculating. I think the biggest problem here on the Cooler is people on both sides tend to see everything as right or wrong or black and white and nothing in between. The other person is always "wrong" or a "SJW" or "racist" or a left or right wing nut instead of a person with different opinions. If we tried to see both sides of arguments this place would be much better for productive discussions and we'd see less of the food fights that almost every thread becomes. That's what I see anyway and it's why I've been avoiding this place more and spending less time lurking here and more time on the sports boards. It's probably too much to hope for better conversations about politics. I know that's not possible for some of the people here also. So big IU game Wednesday night!

Yes, and on this particular issue, .... (1) Police are a vital and valuable and heroic part of our civil society and their jobs are terribly difficult; and (2) There have been too many episodes of police activity that turned out deadly and when no actual threat was present and that should push us at minimum to ask more questions.

Both (1) and (2) can be true at the same time. It's okay to talk about either, but it's better when you can acknowledge both.

 

[MrBing]

Yes, and on this particular issue, .... (1) Police are a vital and valuable and heroic part of our civil society and their jobs are terribly difficult; and (2) There have been too many episodes of police activity that turned out deadly and when no actual threat was present and that should push us at minimum to ask more questions.

Both (1) and (2) can be true at the same time. It's okay to talk about either, but it's better when you can acknowledge both.

Agree with that.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Yes, and on this particular issue, .... (1) Police are a vital and valuable and heroic part of our civil society and their jobs are terribly difficult; and (2) There have been too many episodes of police activity that turned out deadly and when no actual threat was present and that should push us at minimum to ask more questions.

Both (1) and (2) can be true at the same time. It's okay to talk about either, but it's better when you can acknowledge both.

Yes, and being able to hold police accountable (especially police holding their own accountable) will help people have more confidence in our officers.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

We need to wait on more facts. My emotional side says this is all f*cked up. My logical side says I don't know all the circumstances yet and it would be unfair to convict the cop now. I will wait.

I can't discount there may be media bias in reporting. That would be something for experts to look into. But sans that, it sure appears that a black man is far more likely to be shot in police action shootings than a white. Even in the strange cases, like the officer entering the wrong apartment. Frankly we probably need to investigate if there is a reporting problem, if police shootings of blacks are being reported more often we should know and the media needs to adapt their reporting.

But until someone is willing to do that study (and maybe they have and I've missed it), the evidence we have is that there is a specific problem. That isn't to say This cop in This incident is guilty. But without some systemic evidence of reporting bias it seems safe to conclude that there is an overall issue. It is like global warming, we can't say "this storm is caused by global warming" but we can say "this storm fits the description of a storm that is more likely due to global warming".

 

[MrBing]

I can't discount there may be media bias in reporting. That would be something for experts to look into. But sans that, it sure appears that a black man is far more likely to be shot in police action shootings than a white. Even in the strange cases, like the officer entering the wrong apartment. Frankly we probably need to investigate if there is a reporting problem, if police shootings of blacks are being reported more often we should know and the media needs to adapt their reporting.

But until someone is willing to do that study (and maybe they have and I've missed it), the evidence we have is that there is a specific problem. That isn't to say This cop in This incident is guilty. But without some systemic evidence of reporting bias it seems safe to conclude that there is an overall issue. It is like global warming, we can't say "this storm is caused by global warming" but we can say "this storm fits the description of a storm that is more likely due to global warming".

There is an issue with disproportionate shootings of blacks by cops. Not just white cops too.

 

[wiede]

I just started reading "Stumbling on Happiness". The author makes a point about fight or flight. If a human were devising a robot, the robot would probably have instructions when it sees something to then identify it then take action. That order makes sense to us humans. But it is not the order evolution has left our brains with. Evolution places fight or flight at the very base of the brain. The higher brain powers that control identification kick in later. In the example given in the book, a human will react to seeing a rabid wolverine out of the corner of their eye before the brain tells them it is a rabid wolverine. They have hooked people up to sensors and measured the phenomena.

I have long suspected that many of us have latent racism. It goes back a long way, reading articles from the civil war era there was a lot of fear of the black male. Not just the obvious fear we would expect to be played up, but it seems the white owners were really and truly terrified of the black male. I'm not at all sure we have eliminated that. I suspect, and admit I have no evidence, that our law enforcement community is reacting to a black man with a gun before their higher cognitive powers kick in. The case in Texas where the officer entered into the wrong apartment and saw the apartment owner and shot him would be another example. Her brain had to be screaming that she was in the wrong place, but the more base part of the brain that controls fight or flight was shutting that out.

I don't have a great answer. Obviously training is critical but I would assume they are getting a lot of training in identifying threats (and I assume built in are scenarios where the black is not a threat). Maybe the scenarios aren't real enough? But it seems obvious from these cases there is still a problem out there. I would think if these officers are clearly racist, they would be eliminated from the force. So whatever is happening is happening at a subconscious level. How do we retrain that level? Maybe the feds need to open up some money for studies on how to eliminate this issue (whether it be because of the theory laid out above or some other reason).

Well done. Excellent post.

You stated what I’ve tried to express re: racism, but I didn’t do it nearly as well as you did. This is what I meant when I said we’re all at least a little racist- it’s ingrained in who we are as humans.

That doesn’t mean we can’t fight hard to fight those instincts. The shitty thing is that it didn’t have to be that way- it’s in large part thrusted upon us from our experiences.

The rapper Ice-T once said something really brilliant (and I don’t think much of what he says is brilliant). He said you can take a white kid, black kid, Asian kid, Latino kid, etc, and put them all in the same sandbox. And they’ll all play and get along wonderfully. Take those same kids, and get them together as adults, and there’s always going to be tension. On some level.

In other words, we’re taught (whether we realize it or not) to think of people that look a certain way to act a certain way. It’s different for everyone, depending on what you’re exposed to, and how isolated you are from the “others”. That’s a basic human thing, and us developing our brains that way likely helped our ancestors survive way back when.

I think this helps explain the phenomena of the places with the most white people listing immigration as their #1 issue. Sure, they’ll say it’s because of jobs, and not assimilating. That may be a small part of it (I don’t see many of these folks volunteering to take the low wage, high labor jobs these immigrants normally take).

But, at the core, I think what you’ve described is the overriding factor. Labeling it as immigration makes it sound better to them- no one wants to admit that they’re racist- even a little bit. But, how the hell do you explain a guy like Steve King being re-elected? He’s openly racist, and somehow continues to win elections. Side note- that area is farm country, and relies on many (mostly) illegal immigrants to keep the farms running.

I totally agree with your prescription to help fix this issue. Knowledge is power, but it’ll take resources to achieve that knowledge. It’s easier to deflect than to make the painful decision to evaluate, and also to spend $$$ on resources. Self reflection is in very short supply. Trump has proven that being a victim inflames divisions, and that drives them to the polls.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Well done. Excellent post.

You stated what I’ve tried to express re: racism, but I didn’t do it nearly as well as you did. This is what I meant when I said we’re all at least a little racist- it’s ingrained in who we are as humans.

That doesn’t mean we can’t fight hard to fight those instincts. The shitty thing is that it didn’t have to be that way- it’s in large part thrusted upon us from our experiences.

The rapper Ice-T once said something really brilliant (and I don’t think much of what he says is brilliant). He said you can take a white kid, black kid, Asian kid, Latino kid, etc, and put them all in the same sandbox. And they’ll all play and get along wonderfully. Take those same kids, and get them together as adults, and there’s always going to be tension. On some level.

In other words, we’re taught (whether we realize it or not) to think of people that look a certain way to act a certain way. It’s different for everyone, depending on what you’re exposed to, and how isolated you are from the “others”. That’s a basic human thing, and us developing our brains that way likely helped our ancestors survive way back when.

I think this helps explain the phenomena of the places with the most white people listing immigration as their #1 issue. Sure, they’ll say it’s because of jobs, and not assimilating. That may be a small part of it (I don’t see many of these folks volunteering to take the low wage, high labor jobs these immigrants normally take).

But, at the core, I think what you’ve described is the overriding factor. Labeling it as immigration makes it sound better to them- no one wants to admit that they’re racist- even a little bit. But, how the hell do you explain a guy like Steve King being re-elected? He’s openly racist, and somehow continues to win elections. Side note- that area is farm country, and relies on many (mostly) illegal immigrants to keep the farms running.

I totally agree with your prescription to help fix this issue. Knowledge is power, but it’ll take resources to achieve that knowledge. It’s easier to deflect than to make the painful decision to evaluate, and also to spend $$$ on resources. Self reflection is in very short supply. Trump has proven that being a victim inflames divisions, and that drives them to the polls.

There have been a lot of studies done. A famous one involves photographs that have been lightened or darkened to change the skin tone. People pretty much universally "rate" the lighter skin tone better. Absolutely everything else in the photo is exactly the same, and this rating is true among blacks as well as whites.

That's just to say the only people who do not believe there is a problem are people who do not want to believe there is a problem.

I don't know if there are problems with training, maybe we already train so much that there really isn't an improvement to be had. But what does it mean for society if this is a problem we have no solution for?

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

There have been a lot of studies done. A famous one involves photographs that have been lightened or darkened to change the skin tone. People pretty much universally "rate" the lighter skin tone better. Absolutely everything else in the photo is exactly the same, and this rating is true among blacks as well as whites.

That's just to say the only people who do not believe there is a problem are people who do not want to believe there is a problem.

I don't know if there are problems with training, maybe we already train so much that there really isn't an improvement to be had. But what does it mean for society if this is a problem we have no solution for?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark

 

[DrHoops]

It’s disgusting. Apparently people were even yelling to the police officers that he was the security guard.

Gee, why are NFL players taking a knee?

The death of Jemel Roberson shows that black men aren’t allowed to be the good guy with a gun.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...erson-police-shooting-security-guard-illinois



WTF!

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

It’s disgusting. Apparently people were even yelling to the police officers that he was the security guard.

Gee, why are NFL players taking a knee?

According to Trump they’re taking knees because they’re sons of bitches.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I just started reading "Stumbling on Happiness". The author makes a point about fight or flight. If a human were devising a robot, the robot would probably have instructions when it sees something to then identify it then take action. That order makes sense to us humans. But it is not the order evolution has left our brains with. Evolution places fight or flight at the very base of the brain. The higher brain powers that control identification kick in later. In the example given in the book, a human will react to seeing a rabid wolverine out of the corner of their eye before the brain tells them it is a rabid wolverine. They have hooked people up to sensors and measured the phenomena.

I have long suspected that many of us have latent racism. It goes back a long way, reading articles from the civil war era there was a lot of fear of the black male. Not just the obvious fear we would expect to be played up, but it seems the white owners were really and truly terrified of the black male. I'm not at all sure we have eliminated that. I suspect, and admit I have no evidence, that our law enforcement community is reacting to a black man with a gun before their higher cognitive powers kick in. The case in Texas where the officer entered into the wrong apartment and saw the apartment owner and shot him would be another example. Her brain had to be screaming that she was in the wrong place, but the more base part of the brain that controls fight or flight was shutting that out.

I don't have a great answer. Obviously training is critical but I would assume they are getting a lot of training in identifying threats (and I assume built in are scenarios where the black is not a threat). Maybe the scenarios aren't real enough? But it seems obvious from these cases there is still a problem out there. I would think if these officers are clearly racist, they would be eliminated from the force. So whatever is happening is happening at a subconscious level. How do we retrain that level? Maybe the feds need to open up some money for studies on how to eliminate this issue (whether it be because of the theory laid out above or some other reason).

How do events like Gray (Black) and Castille (Hispanic) officers factor in to your "latent racism" explanation? Is that explanation plausible for members of the police force that are either the same race as the victim or considered a minority that has suffered racism itself?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

We need to wait on more facts. My emotional side says this is all f*cked up. My logical side says I don't know all the circumstances yet and it would be unfair to convict the cop now. I will wait.

I'm with you. I think the officer will likely deserve to be charged and convicted.

From few accounts I read it was more chaotic than a typical situation b/c of the "Active shooter" threat and response. That said, it appears he passed over the first security guard inside before encountering Jemel outside. A few questions may help to address the officers' intent:

1) Was the other security guard of the same race?

2) How was the other security guard dressed? I'd assume similarly

3) Why did the office fire before asking questions the second time but not the first?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

How do events like Gray (Black) and Castille (Hispanic) officers factor in to your "latent racism" explanation? Is that explanation plausible for members of the police force that are either the same race as the victim or considered a minority that has suffered racism itself?

It is still plausible, read the link Super gave about the doll experiment. It has been long known that even in the black community skin color is a factor. Heck, you can Google this one yourself, AI has a racial bias against blacks. Here are some examples.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I just started reading "Stumbling on Happiness". The author makes a point about fight or flight. If a human were devising a robot, the robot would probably have instructions when it sees something to then identify it then take action. That order makes sense to us humans. But it is not the order evolution has left our brains with. Evolution places fight or flight at the very base of the brain. The higher brain powers that control identification kick in later. In the example given in the book, a human will react to seeing a rabid wolverine out of the corner of their eye before the brain tells them it is a rabid wolverine. They have hooked people up to sensors and measured the phenomena.

I have long suspected that many of us have latent racism. It goes back a long way, reading articles from the civil war era there was a lot of fear of the black male. Not just the obvious fear we would expect to be played up, but it seems the white owners were really and truly terrified of the black male. I'm not at all sure we have eliminated that. I suspect, and admit I have no evidence, that our law enforcement community is reacting to a black man with a gun before their higher cognitive powers kick in. The case in Texas where the officer entered into the wrong apartment and saw the apartment owner and shot him would be another example. Her brain had to be screaming that she was in the wrong place, but the more base part of the brain that controls fight or flight was shutting that out.

I don't have a great answer. Obviously training is critical but I would assume they are getting a lot of training in identifying threats (and I assume built in are scenarios where the black is not a threat). Maybe the scenarios aren't real enough? But it seems obvious from these cases there is still a problem out there. I would think if these officers are clearly racist, they would be eliminated from the force. So whatever is happening is happening at a subconscious level. How do we retrain that level? Maybe the feds need to open up some money for studies on how to eliminate this issue (whether it be because of the theory laid out above or some other reason).

I think you are probably on the right track. I also don't know what to do, but I think coming to grips with the fact that these latent biases exist and are most likely universal is a good first step. Too many people seem to insist that there is no way they could ever suffer such a bias, but as you mentioned, experiments have pretty much confirmed that they (we) do.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

It is still plausible, read the link Super gave about the doll experiment. It has been long known that even in the black community skin color is a factor. Heck, you can Google this one yourself, AI has a racial bias against blacks. Here are some examples.

So if blacks create an AI that has a racial bias against blacks, what is this concept called?

 

[NPT]

My gut tells me that's more right than wrong but we don't know that it's right. It's speculation so we don't know. It's not a fact that it would happen. I bet someone took offense to that being presented as factual but I didn't see it so I'm speculating. I think the biggest problem here on the Cooler is people on both sides tend to see everything as right or wrong or black and white and nothing in between. The other person is always "wrong" or a "SJW" or "racist" or a left or right wing nut instead of a person with different opinions. If we tried to see both sides of arguments this place would be much better for productive discussions and we'd see less of the food fights that almost every thread becomes. That's what I see anyway and it's why I've been avoiding this place more and spending less time lurking here and more time on the sports boards. It's probably too much to hope for better conversations about politics. I know that's not possible for some of the people here also. So big IU game Wednesday night!

I think there are just a lot of cops that shouldn't be cops. It may be that race entered into this but I would bet it was fear and the inability to make good decisions in a tense situation. I know that I sure wouldn't want to be in a situation like the guard was where I grew up and all the cops were white and I'm white because I would fear for my life. The cops there are scared of their shadow and would probably start shooting right away.

 

[iu_a_att]

So if blacks create an AI that has a racial bias against blacks, what is this concept called?

Racial bias via algorithm. Since these biases are not the product of conscious attitudes or racial animus they may be produced by anyone.

 

[Noodle]

There have been a lot of studies done. A famous one involves photographs that have been lightened or darkened to change the skin tone. People pretty much universally "rate" the lighter skin tone better. Absolutely everything else in the photo is exactly the same, and this rating is true among blacks as well as whites.

That's just to say the only people who do not believe there is a problem are people who do not want to believe there is a problem.

I don't know if there are problems with training, maybe we already train so much that there really isn't an improvement to be had. But what does it mean for society if this is a problem we have no solution for?

A family that we have been friends with for years have two adopted African American daughters in their teens. Beautiful young ladies, outstanding students, accomplished athletes, and genuinely stellar individuals. One daughter is decidedly darker skinned than the other. Their mom once told us that even close family members treat the daughters differently, acting more warmly to the light skinned daughter. She was very teary eyed relaying this information and it was obvious that she was very troubled by it.

I should also mention that the parents are two of the nicest people I know. I cannot imagine that either has a family member that would ever be considered racist by the commonly understood definition of the word. Yet, they still treat the two daughters differently. The relatives, I’m sure, have no idea they are doing it. And that probably makes it even harder for the mom to witness, as it suggests what the one daughter will have to overcome in society.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

A family that we have been friends with for years have two adopted African American daughters in their teens. Beautiful young ladies, outstanding students, accomplished athletes, and genuinely stellar individuals. One daughter is decidedly darker skinned than the other. Their mom once told us that even close family members treat the daughters differently, acting more warmly to the light skinned daughter. She was very teary eyed relaying this information and it was obvious that she was very troubled by it.

I should also mention that the parents are two of the nicest people I know. I cannot imagine that either has a family member that would ever be considered racist by the commonly understood definition of the word. Yet, they still treat the two daughters differently. The relatives, I’m sure, have no idea they are doing it. And that probably makes it even harder for the mom to witness, as it suggests what the one daughter will have to overcome in society.

Thanks for sharing that

 

[Noodle]

A family that we have been friends with for years have two adopted African American daughters in their teens. Beautiful young ladies, outstanding students, accomplished athletes, and genuinely stellar individuals. One daughter is decidedly darker skinned than the other. Their mom once told us that even close family members treat the daughters differently, acting more warmly to the light skinned daughter. She was very teary eyed relaying this information and it was obvious that she was very troubled by it.

I should also mention that the parents are two of the nicest people I know. I cannot imagine that either has a family member that would ever be considered racist by the commonly understood definition of the word. Yet, they still treat the two daughters differently. The relatives, I’m sure, have no idea they are doing it. And that probably makes it even harder for the mom to witness, as it suggests what the one daughter will have to overcome in society.

Ironically, I just found this beautiful story tonight: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/str...s-hair-world-needs-people-like-143655901.html