15 dollar an hour Minimum wage

[mcmurtry66]

He's more like a one-legged cub.

I've given this some thought, and yes IGW is FOS. I do a considerable amount of work in manufacturing (light manufacturing - largely cut and sew factories for sporting goods, uniforms, and construction gear). $15 will crush this industry. Even when things are going well their margins are tight because of overseas competition and how simple it's become for companies of any size to manufacture overseas. Schutt (football helmets etc.) entered bankruptcy last month (parent co.). They were 58 mil in the hole. They had a factory in southern Illinois and one in Florida. For certain industries it's almost impossible to manufacture in the states and be competitive.

If the argument is that minimum wage isn't a living wage - it was never intended to be a living wage, as we discussed earlier in this thread. That doesn't resolve the issue of too many folks relying on minimum wage for their existence. I'm becoming more and more persuaded that UBI is the best solution. A heavily, mean's-tested UBI. This will elevate our floor without having a deleterious impact on businesses that are already fighting to keep afloat.

 

[larsIU]

Entirely so, and Marsh/O'Malia's is the perfect example for this discussion.

There is a Needler's going in at 126th and Gray in Carmel. It will be interesting to see how it's set up. The O'Malia's there was the last holdout of that chain's name (to my knowledge), and the service they provided was welcomed by that familiar and aging crowd. They did keep a bagger on staff too. He was a long time employee with special needs, and I'm quite sure a vast majority of the patrons used his lane to keep him viable in that store. I think he was still around until the end.

Regardless, I'm convinced if they keep a couple of lanes staffed with a cashier and bagger, they will grab a large sample of the area. The older shoppers will appreciate the service, and the newer crowds will appreciate the proximity.

I wish the O'Malia's in downtown Carmel was still around. I live near where it used to be and would love the convenience.

I live in that area and 100% agree. But that Needler's will work in that area b/c of its high income demographic. I used to go to that O'Malia's for quick things like milk or eggs but we still did our "normal" weekly shopping at Meijer. I did buy steaks at O'Malia's and was kinda sad to see it close down.

 

[larsIU]

Publix has found the sweet spot IMO.

When the Meijer opened a few years ago the service was awesome...for about six weeks before it fell off the map. 12 check out lanes...one open.

The rest are self -serve with these ridiculous self-serve for larger orders that have an arm designed to allow for for two users at at time. These were designed by the three stooges.

Yeah, we use Meijer b/c the wife has the Meijer perks/coupon scheme figured out (man i wish she'd put that brain to use on Gamestop stock). I hate Kroger. And Wal-mart? No thanks.

Don't worry though, Meijer now has cameras watching you self scan and alerts a human when something seems amiss. We're getting closer and closer to Skynet.

 

[UncleMark]

If the argument is that minimum wage isn't a living wage - it was never intended to be a living wage, as we discussed earlier in this thread. That doesn't resolve the issue of too many folks relying on minimum wage for their existence. I'm becoming more and more persuaded that UBI is the best solution. A heavily, mean's-tested UBI. This will elevate our floor without having a deleterious impact on businesses that are already fighting to keep afloat.

Something not right about that. Using the taxpayer to subsidize businesses that can't make the numbers work otherwise... sounds like socialism to me.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Something not right about that. Using the taxpayer to subsidize businesses that can't make the numbers work otherwise... sounds like socialism to me.

How is that subsidizing business? In my view it's leaving business alone and allowing the market to determines wages, which beats foisting wage increases on struggling businesses. Your supposition that businesses "can't make the numbers work" is erroneous. They're making the numbers work -but changing the formula by increasing wages by more than 50% on top of all the payroll taxes, comp coverage etc., is changing the playing field and further removing our competitiveness in a truly global market. You know how easy it is to do business all over the world. It takes a DHL express account. Piece of cake.

Let the gov prop up people directly without the pretense of businesses having to do so. As for UBI it would presumably be means-tested and eligibility etc. would be akin to Medicaid.

 

[Bloom.]

I've given this some thought, and yes IGW is FOS. I do a considerable amount of work in manufacturing (light manufacturing - largely cut and sew factories for sporting goods, uniforms, and construction gear). $15 will crush this industry. Even when things are going well their margins are tight because of overseas competition and how simple it's become for companies of any size to manufacture overseas. Schutt (football helmets etc.) entered bankruptcy last month (parent co.). They were 58 mil in the hole. They had a factory in southern Illinois and one in Florida. For certain industries it's almost impossible to manufacture in the states and be competitive.

If the argument is that minimum wage isn't a living wage - it was never intended to be a living wage, as we discussed earlier in this thread. That doesn't resolve the issue of too many folks relying on minimum wage for their existence. I'm becoming more and more persuaded that UBI is the best solution. A heavily, mean's-tested UBI. This will elevate our floor without having a deleterious impact on businesses that are already fighting to keep afloat.

So this is where I diverge a bit on the living wage concept.

Who is making minimum wage in this light manufactory base? Or let's even, who is making $12 per hour? (Because a $3 raise is pretty substantial to anyone in the middle class. It's $6,200 raise.) I'm just trying to get a feel for this.

I have no issue with people who do actual labor making a living wage.



A separate note:
UBI is awfully socialistic. It would go beyond being just a social program. I get raising the floor, but I would only want this as a temporary fix or a highly scrutinized form of compensation. I would have incentives in the program to move people through it. I would want to know where the money is being spent.

There would be no way to turn these payments into cash.

No need to give people cash who are just going to turn around and spend it on the thing(s) that make them unemployable. (I realize I'm pretty Draconian on this.) That said, I would have incentives for things like rehab, counseling, etc.

They would be debit cards, which could only be used with partner businesses, including housing. I would make it easy for a business to be part of the program, with the only real requirements being all payments are made with the card, all returns go back to the card. Might even lock out all alcohol purchases with that card.

This would not be a living wage, or even get the person to the poverty line. This would be an amount that would allow for 2-3 people to live together though.

If they live through the parameters of the program, they could always have a home, always have food and always have clothes, not that those would be the only things the credit could be spent on. They would be encouraged to extend their education or attain job skills. It would, of course, include healthcare. It would compel them to improve while still keeping them afloat.

 

[mcmurtry66]

So this is where I diverge a bit on the living wage concept.

Who is making minimum wage in this light manufactory base? Or let's even, who is making $12 per hour? (Because a $3 raise is pretty substantial to anyone in the middle class. It's $6,200 raise.) I'm just trying to get a feel for this.

I have no issue with people who do actual labor making a living wage.



A separate note:
UBI is awfully socialistic. It would go beyond being just a social program. I get raising the floor, but I would only want this as a temporary fix or a highly scrutinized form of compensation. I would have incentives in the program to move people through it. I would want to know where the money is being spent.

There would be no way to turn these payments into cash.

No need to give people cash who are just going to turn around and spend it on the thing(s) that make them unemployable. (I realize I'm pretty Draconian on this.) That said, I would have incentives for things like rehab, counseling, etc.

They would be debit cards, which could only be used with partner businesses, including housing. I would make it easy for a business to be part of the program, with the only real requirements being all payments are made with the card, all returns go back to the card. Might even lock out all alcohol purchases with that card.

This would not be a living wage, or even get the person to the poverty line. This would be an amount that would allow for 2-3 people to live together though.

If they live through the parameters of the program, they could always have a home, always have food and always have clothes, not that those would be the only things the credit could be spent on. They would be encouraged to extend their education or attain job skills. It would, of course, include healthcare. It would compel them to improve while still keeping them afloat.

I like how you'd implement it. And it would have to be a graduated eligibility line with graduated amounts to reduce fraud.

As for the minimum wage up top I was presupposing $15 an hour. I'd probably be fine with $10 or $11. The folks I know are largely rural - they make $10 an hour sewing; making uniforms, etc. Husband does whatever else and combined they do fine. Raising wages 50 percent is untenable for these businesses.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

To add to this. If you look at Biden’s first round of EO’s they’re almost entirely symbolic in nature.

Canceling the keystone pipeline does nothing to protect the environment, promote energy independence, or promote renewable sources of energy.

Rejoing the climate accords, well that agreement was entirely symbolic to begin with.

Canceling construction on the border wall. Why? We saw a major drop in illegal immigration the 2nd half of the Trump administration. We used to agree this was a good thing. Walls help, no they’re not a end all be all.


And then of course some more that follow the open borders/ amnesty theme. Pretty obvious that this administrations stance on border security is not a difference in method from Trump but to try and actively undermine the security all together. Something brand new from the Democratic side of the aisle but I think we all knew they would get to this place eventually.

And on and on. How do we get to a place where petty childish Presidents aren’t ping ponging EO’s back and forth to try and undermine the others accomplishments?

How do we get to a place where Executives are more reluctant to use EO’s all together?

It’s all posturing. This is kindergarten petty governance.

The pipeline delay cost the US and Canadian economies thousands of jobs and $Millions in tax revenues.

It does however protect Billionaire Democrap donor Warren Buffet's $50 Billion annual cash cow of Burlington Northern oil contracts by tripling the transportation cost of a barrel of oil.

Understand it now?

 

[Bloom.]

I like how you'd implement it. And it would have to be a graduated eligibility line with graduated amounts to reduce fraud.

As for the minimum wage up top I was presupposing $15 an hour. I'd probably be fine with $10 or $11. The folks I know are largely rural - they make $10 an hour sewing; making uniforms, etc. Husband does whatever else and combined they do fine. Raising wages 50 percent is untenable for these businesses.

I pay people $10 per hour to keep score and stats at games. They do have delegated to them of being my eyes at the court they work as well. Peace of mind for me, and my events produce data, which parents love to read. It's a loss leader for me, because I can easily get two parents to just keep score for free.

To me, sewing is a skill, but no question how it would impact businesses. I'm sure someone in that position would rather make $10 an hour for 30-40 hours of work than $15 an hour for zero hours of work.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I pay people $10 per hour to keep score and stats at games. They do have delegated to them of being my eyes at the court they work as well. Peace of mind for me, and my events produce data, which parents love to read. It's a loss leader for me, because I can easily get two parents to just keep score for free.

To me, sewing is a skill, but no question how it would impact businesses. I'm sure someone in that position would rather make $10 an hour for 30-40 hours of work than $15 an hour for zero hours of work.

Agreed on all fronts

 

[mashnut]

Something not right about that. Using the taxpayer to subsidize businesses that can't make the numbers work otherwise... sounds like socialism to me.

I actually look at it the opposite way. If there was a UBI, suddenly a lot of the employers getting by on employees who rely on a patchwork of current social programs to supplement a non-living wage would have a big problem, they'd need to pay enough to make it worth someone's time to do the work. Today a job is a matter of survival so it's not a true free market, people can't just walk away from jobs and risk losing housing, food, insurance etc. If all of those things are guaranteed it's a different story and the employer-employee relationship looks a bit more symmetrical.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

I'm sure someone in that position would rather make $10 an hour for 30-40 hours of work than $15 an hour for zero hours of work.

false choice, but then nothing you have said here regarding the impact of a $15 hr min wage is remotely true, and all you have said is 100% self serving.

in fact, the self serving anti worker false propaganda crowd is well represented everyday on this board.

 

[Bloom.]

false choice, but then nothing you have said here regarding the impact of a $15 hr min wage is remotely true, and all you have said is 100% self serving.

in fact, the self serving anti worker false propaganda crowd is well represented everyday on this board.

History has already proven you wrong.

 

[IUAPEX]

The truth of the matter is that very very few businesses are paying the Federal minimum wage. They are either paying a higher state minimum, or the market has dictated a higher starting wage. My old employer started people at $9.00; my new retirement job pays $10. Fast food here in Bton starts at $9-10, and this town has some of the most depressed wages in the country.

That said, $15 is too big an ask. I don't know what an inflation adjusted raise of the Federal minimum from the 2009 level would be, but I suspect it would be in the $9-10 range. So make it $11. That should be doable; it would send the signal the progressives are after, and would help a handful of people at the very bottom without being too burdensome overall. Hell, phase it in over two or three years if that makes people more comfortable.

This is reasonable, but I would still advocate for fluctuation between states. The market does create this as no question that you have to pay more wage to attract workers in Manhattan than you do Angola, IN. However, my concern for state fluctuation even less about the current $11-15 range as it is about the ability to “broad brush” reset future minimums that could impact small rural communities more negatively than intended.