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“White lives matter!”

Aloha Hoosier

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I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived [last night] just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.

Edit: I realized that I left the time of arrival in DC (last night) out after Ranger pointed out happy hour shouldn't be at 0930. He's right. However, it's always happy hour somewhere! ;)
 
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I think their explanation is partially correct. But part of it is the lobster in a pot of water theory. We notice a large jump in killings in a short period of time. We have become desensitized to the "normal" number of killings.
 
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It's not racial. It's like I said in the other thread. Mass shootings are like plane crashes. They're dramatic and receive lots of attention. We certainly talked about Dylann Roof, right?
 
I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.
Would be curious to know how the conversation proceeded? What did you say to them? Do you think they have a good point?
 
I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.

Isn't part of the issue how the guns were acquired and what type of guns they were? Cruz didn't walk in with a glock and kill that many people.
 
I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.
If I were with you I would have asked these men how come the NAACP doesn't protest more the daily killings? How come we don't hear rap stars and basketball stars who are black continually beat the drum for peaceful streets? My take on this is that it is all political. A black person killing another black person does not advance a political agenda. But if a white cop ie Ferguson police officer shoots a black person then everyone in the media, Democrat Party, and in the Ferguson community rises to protest and riot. How many black on black crimes happened in Ferguson just that day? How man blacks killed other blacks and no one sounded the alarm? The truth is all lives matter. If anyone violently kills someone else by any means it is a sorrowful thing.
 
I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.

That’s an interesting point. My reaction is, and I’ve thought this for a while, that the media and the Democrats use the gun debate as yet another means to poke a stick in the eye of the GOP and conservatives—not to control guns per se. While there are no doubt people genuinely concerned about public safety, to many more the gun issue is a means to another end, not the end in itself. The anti-gun mob can’t leverage their advocacy into political power by talking about black on black shootings in Baltimore and Chicago.

FWIW, Dana Loesch brought Chicago up at the CNN anti-gun show and she was booed while the host sat on his hands. I guess that means CNN only cares about whites.
 
I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.
Hey buddy, 9:30am ain’t happy hour
 
If I were with you I would have asked these men how come the NAACP doesn't protest more the daily killings? How come we don't hear rap stars and basketball stars who are black continually beat the drum for peaceful streets? My take on this is that it is all political. A black person killing another black person does not advance a political agenda. But if a white cop ie Ferguson police officer shoots a black person then everyone in the media, Democrat Party, and in the Ferguson community rises to protest and riot. How many black on black crimes happened in Ferguson just that day? How man blacks killed other blacks and no one sounded the alarm? The truth is all lives matter. If anyone violently kills someone else by any means it is a sorrowful thing.
There are numerous basketball stars and rap artists that give back to their community and give millions of dollars and try to help make the streets “peaceful.”

You seriously need to shut up.
 
That’s an interesting point. My reaction is, and I’ve thought this for a while, that the media and the Democrats use the gun debate as yet another means to poke a stick in the eye of the GOP and conservatives—not to control guns per se. While there are no doubt people genuinely concerned about public safety, to many more the gun issue is a means to another end, not the end in itself. The anti-gun mob can’t leverage their advocacy into political power by talking about black on black shootings in Baltimore and Chicago.

FWIW, Dana Loesch brought Chicago up at the CNN anti-gun show and she was booed while the host sat on his hands. I guess that means CNN only cares about whites.

Chicago's gun laws are undercut by anyone being able to cross the state lines and easily pick up tons of guns in Indiana.

Baltimore & Chicago have to be long-term projects to bring in good jobs to those neighborhoods and give people options outside of gangs to make money if they have a minor drug conviction in their past. Just cranking up the police presence isn't a complete fix. Chicago at least has been screwed up since Richard J Daley did things to keep the city segregated to preserve his & his political machine's power.

I do agree that gun violence in Chicago doesn't move the political needle for your average Independent voter with a goldfish memory outside urban areas, but I think most Dems look at the statistics for European countries with strict gun control/bans versus the US and the various scientific studies and think what we do is crazy right now.
 
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Hadn’t thought of it that way.
Exactly. Most fundamentally, that's precisely what I'm talking about when I say Old.White.Male. It's someone who doesn't see things from any other point of view and thus has little awareness of his systemic privilege and how it detrimentally affects others.

Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.
This to me sweeps it under the carpet to some degree. It's more than just a different perspective. It's a systemic reality. The word perspective is used to mean both world view and (relatively objective) point of view. You can look at anything from multiple perspectives. You needn't own any of them as your world view. You needn't be beholden to any of them. That's what ideology does. Ideology glues you to a particular world view. Viewing things from multiple perspectives allows you to be free and adopt stances that help both you and others.
 
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I think their explanation is partially correct. But part of it is the lobster in a pot of water theory. We notice a large jump in killings in a short period of time. We have become desensitized to the "normal" number of killings.
It's not racial. It's like I said in the other thread. Mass shootings are like plane crashes. They're dramatic and receive lots of attention. We certainly talked about Dylann Roof, right?

When you have shootings on a daily basis, it takes 9/11 type incidents to garner attention. (Obvioisly this isn't on the same level.) If 20 black children were murdered in a school in Mississippi, I believe the media attention would be equal to MSD.
 
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I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.
It's kind of like when one white girl is kidnapped it's s national story for a week. And a lot of the murders are gang related which is obviously tragic for kids involved, but is not going to get the media attention.
 
When you have shootings on a daily basis, it takes 9/11 type incidents to garner attention. (Obvioisly this isn't on the same level.) If 20 black children were murdered in a school in Mississippi, I believe the media attention would be equal to MSD.
Right. The church shooting was all Black people and it got the media attention.
 
Exactly. Most fundamentally, that's precisely what I'm talking about when I say Old.White.Male. It's someone who doesn't see things from any other point of view and thus has little awareness of his systemic privilege and how it detrimentally affects others.

This to me sweeps it under the carpet to some degree. It's more than just a different perspective. It's a systemic reality. The word perspective is used to mean both world view and (relatively objective) point of view. You can look at anything from multiple perspectives. You needn't own any of them as your world view. You needn't be beholden to any of them. That's what ideology does. Ideology glues you to a particular world view. Viewing things from multiple perspectives allows you to be free and adopt stances that help both you and others.
We appreciate yet another lecture, lurker. Please link to the last time you were persuaded by objectively considering a perspective different from your own.
 
When you have shootings on a daily basis, it takes 9/11 type incidents to garner attention. (Obvioisly this isn't on the same level.) If 20 black children were murdered in a school in Mississippi, I believe the media attention would be equal to MSD.

Seems like simple logic to me. But pulling out the race card is easier.
 
I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.
I think there are a lot of moving parts regarding how we respond to tragedies, and your black acquaintances' take is a valid one.

I think it was Patrice O'Neal who did a hilarious bit many years ago where he said if ever did anything where he might get lost, like sailing, he wanted to always have a little white girl with him, because then he knew people would stop at nothing to find them. I tried to find it on YouTube and struck out. :)
 
Is this really all about race now? Blacks kill blacks every day all day in Chicago using illegally obtained weapons and now law abiding citizens should pay the price? Cause we all know that will solve the crimes on the streets of Chicago where there are the most stringent gun control laws in the US. It is a political stunt by liberals with a second amendment disdain. It is not about the killings it is not about race it is about politics.
 
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Is this really all about race now? Blacks kill blacks every day all day in Chicago using illegally obtained weapons and now law abiding citizens should pay the price? Cause we all know that will solve the crimes on the streets of Chicago where there are the most stringent gun control laws in the US. It is a political stunt by liberals with a second amendment disdain. It is not about the killings it is not about race it is about politics.
I don't think you even come close to understanding the point Aloha's associates were making here. Read his OP again.
 
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Is this really all about race now? Blacks kill blacks every day all day in Chicago using illegally obtained weapons and now law abiding citizens should pay the price? Cause we all know that will solve the crimes on the streets of Chicago where there are the most stringent gun control laws in the US. It is a political stunt by liberals with a second amendment disdain. It is not about the killings it is not about race it is about politics.
For such a gun expert, surely you know that a large number of the guns in Chicago are brought there from Indiana. Who just happen to have very lax gun laws.
 
If I were with you I would have asked these men how come the NAACP doesn't protest more the daily killings? How come we don't hear rap stars and basketball stars who are black continually beat the drum for peaceful streets? My take on this is that it is all political. A black person killing another black person does not advance a political agenda. But if a white cop ie Ferguson police officer shoots a black person then everyone in the media, Democrat Party, and in the Ferguson community rises to protest and riot. How many black on black crimes happened in Ferguson just that day? How man blacks killed other blacks and no one sounded the alarm? The truth is all lives matter. If anyone violently kills someone else by any means it is a sorrowful thing.

A little reminder to our resident 'Pastor.'

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:

“Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.

To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”
 
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I’m in DC for some meetings today and I arrived [last night] just in time for the Manager’s Happy Hour at the Embassy Suites. There are five people on my team, two of them black. During the course of the conversation and a few drinks the recent response to the Florida and Vegas shootings came up. One of the black guys said that the response is really “white lives matter.” Other black guy agreed and they said black kids get shot every day and America doesn’t really care. But after relatively rare mass shootings like the Florida school and the Vegas country music concert happen and kill mostly whites people and now gun control is top priority. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Everyone has a different perspective, obviously.

Edit: I realized that I left the time of arrival in DC (last night) out after Ranger pointed out happy hour shouldn't be at 0930. He's right. However, it's always happy hour somewhere! ;)

It's sad to admit,but your friends are 100% right.Although in the case of Parkland,I'd say the victims were a pretty high % minority.In fact I was personally struck by the fact that Cruz was a former JROTC member,and 3 of his victims were also JROTC-so presumably he knew them.

Was it a coincidence that they were an Asian,an AA (both males) and a female with a hispanic sounding first name?He definitely posted a lot of racist things on that youtube comments page,where he discussed wanting to be a "school shooter"...

But while the Parkland shooting is sort of a wash when it comes to white vs minority victims,other mass shootings do seem to have a preponderance of white victims.

But if you want a real stark indicator of a white bias in victims,you really need look no further than the Delphi killings last year.It was a tragedy,but it's almost comical how the media has fawned over those 2 girls and become spellbound over that single incident.One of the local Indy stations just recently dedicated an entire week to nightly news features about that 1 crime,to mark the 1 yr anniversary.I don't get it...
 
Is this really all about race now? Blacks kill blacks every day all day in Chicago using illegally obtained weapons and now law abiding citizens should pay the price? Cause we all know that will solve the crimes on the streets of Chicago where there are the most stringent gun control laws in the US. It is a political stunt by liberals with a second amendment disdain. It is not about the killings it is not about race it is about politics.

Chicago has had a bloody history,dating back to Al Capone and the Mafia.
To hear your side tell it,Obama is to blame for issues that have plagued Chicago for nearly a century.In fact I'm pretty sure that the murder rate in Chicago actually went down thruout the Obama years,except for 2016 when it exploded.But to hear your side one would think that Obama ignored horrendous murder rates in Chicago thru out his presidency.From a Tribune article on Chicago's history of murder...

"The early 2010s saw some of the lowest homicide totals in decades, but violence exploded in 2016. The city exceeded 760 killings in 2016. The number of homicides in 2017 was lower, but still historically high.

In a 2016 interview, Superintendent Eddie Johnson and Deputy Superintendent Kevin Navarro, speculated on the rise in homicides. They blamed, in part, a perceived willingness by criminals to settle disputes with guns, and what they said is a failure on the part of the justice system to hold them accountable."

We used to respond to gang fights in progress ... now we respond to shots fired," Navarro said. "People fought. Now everyone picks up the gun. Just like that.

Many factors are behind the spike, including access to guns, the fracturing and factioning of street gangs, and poverty and disinvestment in the most effected communities."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-history-of-chicago-homicides-htmlstory.html

Btw,if you click on the link "access to guns" you'll find an interesting article about how gangs in Chicago obtain guns...

"Gun pipelines are plentiful for gang members, many of whom cannot legally buy firearms because of their criminal records. Gun shows and dealers operating under less stringent laws are a short drive away in northwest Indiana. Gang members also turn to legal buyers to purchase weapons for them at suburban Cook County and downstate gun shops — an illegal practice known as straw purchasing. Guns also are stolen in burglaries.

Roseanna Ander, executive director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab, who has studied gun issues, said gun seizure records suggest gang members in New York and Los Angeles carry fewer illegal firearms than those in Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-shootings-violence-2016-met-20160630-story.html

The part about gangs in NYC and LA having "fewer guns" is interesting,as Chicago,NYC and LA all have some of the most stringent gun control laws on the books.But NYC and LA are surrounded by equally stringent gun laws in New York and California respectively,while Chicago is surrounded by some of the least restrictive gun laws anywhere,that are found here in Indiana...
 
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It's sad to admit,but your friends are 100% right.Although in the case of Parkland,I'd say the victims were a pretty high % minority.In fact I was personally struck by the fact that Cruz was a former JROTC member,and 3 of his victims were also JROTC-so presumably he knew them.

Was it a coincidence that they were an Asian,an AA (both males) and a female with a hispanic sounding first name?He definitely posted a lot of racist things on that youtube comments page,where he discussed wanting to be a "school shooter"...

But while the Parkland shooting is sort of a wash when it comes to white vs minority victims,other mass shootings do seem to have a preponderance of white victims.

But if you want a real stark indicator of a white bias in victims,you really need look no further than the Delphi killings last year.It was a tragedy,but it's almost comical how the media has fawned over those 2 girls and become spellbound over that single incident.One of the local Indy stations just recently dedicated an entire week to nightly news features about that 1 crime,to mark the 1 yr anniversary.I don't get it...

Dylann Roof killed black people. That single event led to a cultural change unmatched by all the killings of white people or white kids put together. The Roof killings actually caused changes. The killing of whites causes talk and posturing.
 
Dylann Roof killed black people. That single event led to a cultural change unmatched by all the killings of white people or white kids put together. The Roof killings actually caused changes. The killing of whites causes talk and posturing.

Not sure why you replied to me,as I'm talking about criminal acts with no racial component,and Roof clearly perpetrated a hate crime.If you had quoted the specific part of my post you were replying to,I'd be able to better address whatever point you're making...

I also think you're assigning universal disgust to the Roof killings,but I'm not sure that's at all accurate.While it's true that a LOT of people were appalled by what Roof did,and especially the obvious racial component,I think a smaller,yet equally outspoken number of folks chose to interpret things differently and become even more entrenched within their own biases.

While it's true that the delegitimization of Rebel monuments and flags was spawned by Roof's actions,that same action has also spawned a backlash and resurgence of white supremacist thought.While some people who cling to Confederate symbols aren't actually racist,the truth is that racists have co opted the symbols and the battle to preserve them.


The reality of situations like Charlottesville is that they were ostensibly organized to demonstrate support for "Rebel statues",but they were in the end little more than an oppty for White Supremacists to gather and display their "power".The march by armed thugs past synagogues full of frightened people on a Friday evening during services was all about demonstrating anti-Semitism,and recreating the terror of kristallnacht.It was purely intentional...
 
Not sure why you replied to me,as I'm talking about criminal acts with no racial component,and Roof clearly perpetrated a hate crime.If you had quoted the specific part of my post you were replying to,I'd be able to better address whatever point you're making...

I also think you're assigning universal disgust to the Roof killings,but I'm not sure that's at all accurate.While it's true that a LOT of people were appalled by what Roof did,and especially the obvious racial component,I think a smaller,yet equally outspoken number of folks chose to interpret things differently and become even more entrenched within their own biases.

While it's true that the delegitimization of Rebel monuments and flags was spawned by Roof's actions,that same action has also spawned a backlash and resurgence of white supremacist thought.While some people who cling to Confederate symbols aren't actually racist,the truth is that racists have co opted the symbols and the battle to preserve them.

The reality of situations like Charlottesville is that they were ostensibly organized to demonstrate support for "Rebel statues",but they were in the end little more than an oppty for White Supremacists to gather and display their "power".The march by armed thugs past synagogues full of frightened people on a Friday evening during services was all about demonstrating anti-Semitism,and recreating the terror of kristallnacht.It was purely intentional...

It's undeniable the Roof killings spawned meaningful changes about how we are to look at confederate symbols and leaders. The point of the discussion in this thread is about race.

The Fort Hood killings and the San Bernardino killings were also hate crimes. The victims there were mostly ordinary white people. All those killing produced was more talk.
 
I agree, but let's say a black shooter went on a rampage and killed, say, 10 kids and wounded 20 in Chicago. Do you think the media freak out would be the same? I don't think it would.

That brings to mind something else. Why are these shooters (usually) middle class white people?

It's not racial. It's like I said in the other thread. Mass shootings are like plane crashes. They're dramatic and receive lots of attention. We certainly talked about Dylann Roof, right?
 
Well, I know you grew up near Chicago and I grew up near here in Indiana and have lived in Chicago for 25 years (gulp). We have a HORRIBLE problem with gang violence that is exacerbated by easy access to guns. People like to point to Chicago as an example of the failure of strict gun control laws, but there was an article I read a few years back that I will try to dig up again saying virtually all the guns used in crime in Chicago come from one gun store just outside the city limits, from Indiana, or for some reason, Alabama.

I watched a documentary about the worst areas of Chicago and I can honestly say it looked like an entirely different city than what I live in. I have never, ever been subject to violence here. I've never witnessed anything like that. Chicago is an amazing, beautiful, fun, and SAFE city to live in. In the 25 years I've lived here, though, I have had my car stolen twice, my bike stolen twice, and a few other minor crimes. When my car was stolen in broad daylight (if you heard the story you'd think I'm more of an idiot than you already do) it ended up in Englewood, the worst neighborhood in Chicago. I have an app on my phone that tells me where my car is and when I called the 7th precinct, they laughed and said "Everything bad that happens in Chicago goes through Englewood". Then they said "we don't have any triple homicides going on right now, so we'll send a couple of 'coppers' over to check it out". Those were his words not mine. They sat on the bumper of my car for 3 hours until they could tow it out of there.

My point is that we really live in two different worlds here in Chicago. I am amazed by the police here. They are fantastic...but with so many guns and so many gang feuds, there is only so much they can do. I really hate saying it because it's really sad, but almost all the violence is isolated into a few poor and VERY dangerous areas where the gangs are fighting each other block to block and everyone carries a gun.

That said, apparently I live in one of the most dangerous cities in America and I've never once wanted a gun to defend myself, and I've never met anyone who feels any different than me.

Found it. From the BBC. Again, this is like a completely different city than what I live in:




That’s an interesting point. My reaction is, and I’ve thought this for a while, that the media and the Democrats use the gun debate as yet another means to poke a stick in the eye of the GOP and conservatives—not to control guns per se. While there are no doubt people genuinely concerned about public safety, to many more the gun issue is a means to another end, not the end in itself. The anti-gun mob can’t leverage their advocacy into political power by talking about black on black shootings in Baltimore and Chicago.

FWIW, Dana Loesch brought Chicago up at the CNN anti-gun show and she was booed while the host sat on his hands. I guess that means CNN only cares about whites.
 
Well, I know you grew up near Chicago and I grew up near here in Indiana and have lived in Chicago for 25 years (gulp). We have a HORRIBLE problem with gang violence that is exacerbated by easy access to guns. People like to point to Chicago as an example of the failure of strict gun control laws, but there was an article I read a few years back that I will try to dig up again saying virtually all the guns used in crime in Chicago come from one gun store just outside the city limits, from Indiana, or for some reason, Alabama.

I watched a documentary about the worst areas of Chicago and I can honestly say it looked like an entirely different city than what I live in. I have never, ever been subject to violence here. I've never witnessed anything like that. Chicago is an amazing, beautiful, fun, and SAFE city to live in. In the 25 years I've lived here, though, I have had my car stolen twice, my bike stolen twice, and a few other minor crimes. When my car was stolen in broad daylight (if you heard the story you'd think I'm more of an idiot than you already do) it ended up in Englewood, the worst neighborhood in Chicago. I have an app on my phone that tells me where my car is and when I called the 7th precinct, they laughed and said "Everything bad that happens in Chicago goes through Englewood". Then they said "we don't have any triple homicides going on right now, so we'll send a couple of 'coppers' over to check it out". Those were his words not mine. They sat on the bumper of my car for 3 hours until they could tow it out of there.

My point is that we really live in two different worlds here in Chicago. I am amazed by the police here. They are fantastic...but with so many guns and so many gang feuds, there is only so much they can do. I really hate saying it because it's really sad, but almost all the violence is isolated into a few poor and VERY dangerous areas where the gangs are fighting each other block to block and everyone carries a gun.

That said, apparently I live in one of the most dangerous cities in America and I've never once wanted a gun to defend myself, and I've never met anyone who feels any different than me.

Found it. From the BBC. Again, this is like a completely different city than what I live in:
Excellent description of modern city life. Every word rings true.
 
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Well, I know you grew up near Chicago and I grew up near here in Indiana and have lived in Chicago for 25 years (gulp). We have a HORRIBLE problem with gang violence that is exacerbated by easy access to guns. People like to point to Chicago as an example of the failure of strict gun control laws, but there was an article I read a few years back that I will try to dig up again saying virtually all the guns used in crime in Chicago come from one gun store just outside the city limits, from Indiana, or for some reason, Alabama.

I watched a documentary about the worst areas of Chicago and I can honestly say it looked like an entirely different city than what I live in. I have never, ever been subject to violence here. I've never witnessed anything like that. Chicago is an amazing, beautiful, fun, and SAFE city to live in. In the 25 years I've lived here, though, I have had my car stolen twice, my bike stolen twice, and a few other minor crimes. When my car was stolen in broad daylight (if you heard the story you'd think I'm more of an idiot than you already do) it ended up in Englewood, the worst neighborhood in Chicago. I have an app on my phone that tells me where my car is and when I called the 7th precinct, they laughed and said "Everything bad that happens in Chicago goes through Englewood". Then they said "we don't have any triple homicides going on right now, so we'll send a couple of 'coppers' over to check it out". Those were his words not mine. They sat on the bumper of my car for 3 hours until they could tow it out of there.

My point is that we really live in two different worlds here in Chicago. I am amazed by the police here. They are fantastic...but with so many guns and so many gang feuds, there is only so much they can do. I really hate saying it because it's really sad, but almost all the violence is isolated into a few poor and VERY dangerous areas where the gangs are fighting each other block to block and everyone carries a gun.

That said, apparently I live in one of the most dangerous cities in America and I've never once wanted a gun to defend myself, and I've never met anyone who feels any different than me.

Found it. From the BBC. Again, this is like a completely different city than what I live in:


The biggest difference I see between Chicago now, and the Chicago I knew in my youth is all the congestion. It seems inescapable. I guess that isn't a bad thing though, it shows people are out and about. Rode our tandem from the Wicker Park area along the lake front trail and into the neighborhoods at the southern end past the golf course--and back. Very pleasant and scenic--in an urban way. We pretty much had the trail to ourselves.
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I think their explanation is partially correct. But part of it is the lobster in a pot of water theory. We notice a large jump in killings in a short period of time. We have become desensitized to the "normal" number of killings.
So true.... I think there's 25-30 people killed each day in car crashes due to alcohol but that seems to be accepted as normal.
 
Well, I know you grew up near Chicago and I grew up near here in Indiana and have lived in Chicago for 25 years (gulp). We have a HORRIBLE problem with gang violence that is exacerbated by easy access to guns. People like to point to Chicago as an example of the failure of strict gun control laws, but there was an article I read a few years back that I will try to dig up again saying virtually all the guns used in crime in Chicago come from one gun store just outside the city limits, from Indiana, or for some reason, Alabama.

I watched a documentary about the worst areas of Chicago and I can honestly say it looked like an entirely different city than what I live in. I have never, ever been subject to violence here. I've never witnessed anything like that. Chicago is an amazing, beautiful, fun, and SAFE city to live in. In the 25 years I've lived here, though, I have had my car stolen twice, my bike stolen twice, and a few other minor crimes. When my car was stolen in broad daylight (if you heard the story you'd think I'm more of an idiot than you already do) it ended up in Englewood, the worst neighborhood in Chicago. I have an app on my phone that tells me where my car is and when I called the 7th precinct, they laughed and said "Everything bad that happens in Chicago goes through Englewood". Then they said "we don't have any triple homicides going on right now, so we'll send a couple of 'coppers' over to check it out". Those were his words not mine. They sat on the bumper of my car for 3 hours until they could tow it out of there.

My point is that we really live in two different worlds here in Chicago. I am amazed by the police here. They are fantastic...but with so many guns and so many gang feuds, there is only so much they can do. I really hate saying it because it's really sad, but almost all the violence is isolated into a few poor and VERY dangerous areas where the gangs are fighting each other block to block and everyone carries a gun.

That said, apparently I live in one of the most dangerous cities in America and I've never once wanted a gun to defend myself, and I've never met anyone who feels any different than me.

Found it. From the BBC. Again, this is like a completely different city than what I live in:

I think everyone should watch "The Wire". Its creator, David Simon, grew up in Baltimore, and he produced the show very purposefully to dramatize that there's this segment of America we've just given up on:

There are definitely two Americas. I live in one, on one block in Baltimore that is part of the viable America, the America that is connected to its own economy, where there is a plausible future for the people born into it. About 20 blocks away is another America entirely. It's astonishing how little we have to do with each other, and yet we are living in such proximity.

There's no barbed wire around West Baltimore or around East Baltimore, around Pimlico, the areas in my city that have been utterly divorced from the American experience that I know. But there might as well be.
In this impromptu speech, Simon went on to make what I think is a cogent critique of modern America:

After the second world war, the West emerged with the American economy coming out of its wartime extravagance, emerging as the best product. It was the best product. It worked the best. It was demonstrating its might not only in terms of what it did during the war but in terms of just how facile it was in creating mass wealth.

Plus, it provided a lot more freedom and was doing the one thing that guaranteed that the 20th century was going to be – and forgive the jingoistic sound of this – the American century.

It took a working class that had no discretionary income at the beginning of the century, which was working on subsistence wages. It turned it into a consumer class that not only had money to buy all the stuff that they needed to live but enough to buy a bunch of shit that they wanted but didn't need, and that was the engine that drove us.

. . . And how did we do that? We did that by not giving in to either side. That was the new deal. That was the great society. That was all of that argument about collective bargaining and union wages and it was an argument that meant neither side gets to win.

Labour doesn't get to win all its arguments, capital doesn't get to. But it's in the tension, it's in the actual fight between the two, that capitalism actually becomes functional, that it becomes something that every stratum in society has a stake in, that they all share.

. . . Ultimately we abandoned that and believed in the idea of trickle-down and the idea of the market economy and the market knows best, to the point where now libertarianism in my country is actually being taken seriously as an intelligent mode of political thought. It's astonishing to me. But it is. People are saying I don't need anything but my own ability to earn a profit. I'm not connected to society. I don't care how the road got built, I don't care where the firefighter comes from, I don't care who educates the kids other than my kids. I am me. It's the triumph of the self.

. . . Societies are exactly what they sound like. If everybody is invested and if everyone just believes that they have "some", it doesn't mean that everybody's going to get the same amount. It doesn't mean there aren't going to be people who are the venture capitalists who stand to make the most. It's not each according to their needs or anything that is purely Marxist, but it is that everybody feels as if, if the society succeeds, I succeed, I don't get left behind. And there isn't a society in the West now, right now, that is able to sustain that for all of its population.

. . . I'm utterly committed to the idea that capitalism has to be the way we generate mass wealth in the coming century. That argument's over. But the idea that it's not going to be married to a social compact, that how you distribute the benefits of capitalism isn't going to include everyone in the society to a reasonable extent, that's astonishing to me.

And so capitalism is about to seize defeat from the jaws of victory all by its own hand. That's the astonishing end of this story, unless we reverse course. Unless we take into consideration, if not the remedies of Marx then the diagnosis, because he saw what would happen if capital triumphed unequivocally, if it got everything it wanted.

And one of the things that capital would want unequivocally and for certain is the diminishment of labour. They would want labour to be diminished because labour's a cost. And if labour is diminished, let's translate that: in human terms, it means human beings are worth less.

. . . Mistaking capitalism for a blueprint as to how to build a society strikes me as a really dangerous idea in a bad way. Capitalism is a remarkable engine again for producing wealth. It's a great tool to have in your toolbox if you're trying to build a society and have that society advance. You wouldn't want to go forward at this point without it. But it's not a blueprint for how to build the just society. There are other metrics besides that quarterly profit report.

. . . The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenile notion and it's still being argued in my country passionately and we're going down the tubes. And it terrifies me because I'm astonished at how comfortable we are in absolving ourselves of what is basically a moral choice. Are we all in this together or are we all not?

. . . And that's what The Wire was about basically, it was about people who were worth less and who were no longer necessary, as maybe 10 or 15% of my country is no longer necessary to the operation of the economy. It was about them trying to solve, for lack of a better term, an existential crisis. In their irrelevance, their economic irrelevance, they were nonetheless still on the ground occupying this place called Baltimore and they were going to have to endure somehow.

That's the great horror show. What are we going to do with all these people that we've managed to marginalise? It was kind of interesting when it was only race, when you could do this on the basis of people's racial fears and it was just the black and brown people in American cities who had the higher rates of unemployment and the higher rates of addiction and were marginalised and had the shitty school systems and the lack of opportunity.

And kind of interesting in this last recession to see the economy shrug and start to throw white middle-class people into the same boat, so that they became vulnerable to the drug war, say from methamphetamine, or they became unable to qualify for college loans. And all of a sudden a certain faith in the economic engine and the economic authority of Wall Street and market logic started to fall away from people. And they realised it's not just about race, it's about something even more terrifying. It's about class. Are you at the top of the wave or are you at the bottom?

. . . The last job of capitalism – having won all the battles against labour, having acquired the ultimate authority, almost the ultimate moral authority over what's a good idea or what's not, or what's valued and what's not – the last journey for capital in my country has been to buy the electoral process, the one venue for reform that remained to Americans.

Right now capital has effectively purchased the government, and you witnessed it again with the healthcare debacle in terms of the $450m that was heaved into Congress, the most broken part of my government, in order that the popular will never actually emerged in any of that legislative process.

So I don't know what we do if we can't actually control the representative government that we claim will manifest the popular will. Even if we all start having the same sentiments that I'm arguing for now, I'm not sure we can effect them any more in the same way that we could at the rise of the Great Depression, so maybe it will be the brick. But I hope not.
 
Daley had the interstate built to cut off parts of the city and just built public housing in the Black neighborhoods. He wanted to keep white people from fleeing into the suburbs.

Is it really a race problem or is it a culture problem? There is a difference and nobody seems to focus on the latter.
 
Is it really a race problem or is it a culture problem? There is a difference and nobody seems to focus on the latter.
It is without question a culture problem. Problem is in today's society and with this younger generation self responsibility is almost dead. It is always someone else's fault. And government is suppose ti fix it. Will never happen.
 
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