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Wherein Goat defends a creationist (!)

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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This isn't exactly breaking news, but it's making the rounds in the EvC community right now. There is a case in California right now, by which an avowed creationist is suing California State Unvieristy-Northridge for a wide array of things, all relating to the claim that he was fired for being a creationist. You can read the complaint here, if you like.

Anyway, the short version is this. Mark Armitage is a Young Earth Creationist who was, by all accounts, an excellent microscope technician. Despite having his undergraduate degree in education from Liberty University, and no accredited graduate work (he has a "Masters" in biology from the temporary college that had been set up by the Institute of Creation Research, which was never accredited), he still seems to be a smart guy with a good work ethic, and was very good at what he did, which was basically run the scanning electron microscope lab at CSUN.

Well, as a hobby, he went searching for dinosaur bones with some other creationists in the famous Hell Creek Formation (known for being a goldmine of late Cretaceous fossils), hoping to replicate the respectable (but controversial) work of scientists like Mary Higby Schweitzer, who first isolated apparent soft tissue from dinosaur fossils. They came across a Triceratops horn, trekked it back to California, and he studied it in his lab. Lo and behold, he found soft tissue.

He and a co-author published their findings in the reputable Acta Histochemica. I can't link the text here, but if you are on Facebook, you can join our EvC community page, where we have the text posted. Anyway, the article was well-written, positively-received by peers, and not written with any kind of religious or political slant. It simply presented the authors' findings and offered a discussion of the implications. They did not overstep. For a guy without any actual recognized scientific degree, it was very well done.

Well, somehow, this led to a series of (disputed) events that culminated in his firing. Here's where Goat goes off the reservation.

If the man was fired for being a creationist, this is a travesty. I certainly do not want creationism taught in public secondary schools (or private schools that accept vouchers). I do not want science-deniers to have control over public policy. If you don't accept global warming, I say, good for you, but I don't want you passing environmental laws. If you are an anti-vaxxer, I say, good for you, but I don't want you in charge of public health policy. And if you are a creationist, I say, good for you, but I don't want you teaching a captive audience in a public biology classroom. In other words, from a policy and legal perspective, I give great respect to established scientific thought, mostly because history has shown science to work.

But a university is a whole different setting. At college, students are not a captive audience, and, intellectually (if not legally) more importantly, they should be expected to be exposed to theories that challenge their assumptions. I want students in college to study things that push them to the limit. Firing someone from a university position for being a creationist is, to me, just as misguided as firing someone for being a socialist and teaching Das Kapital as reverently as one can. It might make us feel better to "protect" students from things that we think are wrong, but that's not the purpose of a university. The purpose of a university is to expand horizons, not restrict them.

Now, I don't know how good this guy's case really is. His complaint sounds convincing, but it's also the case that he was not in a tenure-track position. He was essentially a lab tech, nothing more. This case may get thrown out. Still, despite the fact that I disagree with him, I find it troubling from an intellectual point of view that he might have been fired from a university simply for holding incorrect beliefs. A vibrant university culture needs to include access to all beliefs - correct and incorrect, both.

Thoughts?
 
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I am with you 100%. While, like you, do not support so-called Creationism, what Armitage did is commendable. The university should not fire him because he is a creationist. Instead, they should encourage his activity, and even give him research grant to help his research. Unless of course, there are other reasons.
 
Commendable post, Goat, but a question or two if you please - and perhaps you didn't mean this as it is written. Would you banish people from responsible policy positions for their belief - not for what they teach - but, as your post says for their merely being a creation believer in a classroom? I noticed that you didn't say the creationist shouldn't teach creationism, but shouldn't be teaching a biology class if their are a creationist. Neither do you want certain belief holders making laws. Would you prohibit holders of such beliefs from being elected to public office?
 
This isn't exactly breaking news, but it's making the rounds in the EvC community right now. There is a case in California right now, by which an avowed creationist is suing California State Unvieristy-Northridge for a wide array of things, all relating to the claim that he was fired for being a creationist. You can read the complaint here, if you like.

Anyway, the short version is this. Mark Armitage is a Young Earth Creationist who was, by all accounts, an excellent microscope technician. Despite having his undergraduate degree in education from Liberty University, and no accredited graduate work (he has a "Masters" in biology from the temporary college that had been set up by the Institute of Creation Research, which was never accredited), he still seems to be a smart guy with a good work ethic, and was very good at what he did, which was basically run the scanning electron microscope lab at CSUN.

Well, as a hobby, he went searching for dinosaur bones with some other creationists in the famous Hell Creek Formation (known for being a goldmine of late Cretaceous fossils), hoping to replicate the respectable (but controversial) work of scientists like Mary Higby Schweitzer, who first isolated apparent soft tissue from dinosaur fossils. They came across a Triceratops horn, trekked it back to California, and he studied it in his lab. Lo and behold, he found soft tissue.

He and a co-author published their findings in the reputable Acta Histochemica. I can't link the text here, but if you are on Facebook, you can join our EvC community page, where we have the text posted. Anyway, the article was well-written, positively-received by peers, and not written with any kind of religious or political slant. It simply presented the authors' findings and offered a discussion of the implications. They did not overstep. For a guy without any actual recognized scientific degree, it was very well done.

Well, somehow, this led to a series of (disputed) events that culminated in his firing. Here's where Goat goes off the reservation.

If the man was fired for being a creationist, this is a travesty. I certainly do not want creationism taught in public secondary schools (or private schools that accept vouchers). I do not want science-deniers to have control over public policy. If you don't accept global warming, I say, good for you, but I don't want you passing environmental laws. If you are an anti-vaxxer, I say, good for you, but I don't want you in charge of public health policy. And if you are a creationist, I say, good for you, but I don't want you teaching a captive audience in a public biology classroom. In other words, from a policy and legal perspective, I give great respect to established scientific thought, mostly because history has shown science to work.

But a university is a whole different setting. At college, students are not a captive audience, and, intellectually (if not legally) more importantly, they should be expected to be exposed to theories that challenge their assumptions. I want students in college to study things that push them to the limit. Firing someone from a university position for being a creationist is, to me, just as misguided as firing someone for being a socialist and teaching Das Kapital as reverently as one can. It might make us feel better to "protect" students from things that we think are wrong, but that's not the purpose of a university. The purpose of a university is to expand horizons, not restrict them.

Now, I don't know how good this guy's case really is. His complaint sounds convincing, but it's also the case that he was not in a tenure-track position. He was essentially a lab tech, nothing more. This case may get thrown out. Still, despite the fact that I disagree with him, I find it troubling from an intellectual point of view that he might have been fired from a university simply for holding incorrect beliefs. A vibrant university culture needs to include access to all beliefs - correct and incorrect, both.

Thoughts?
I read about this a few months ago. If I recall, the reason he was fired was for unauthorized usage of the microscope which is very expensive to use.

Considering that they hired him knowing he was a Liberty University grad, it seems unlikely he was fired simply for being a creationist.

It also should be mentioned that creationists are notorious for making false claims of discrimination. The Ben Stein movie from a few years ago was full of examples.
 
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Commendable post, Goat, but a question or two if you please - and perhaps you didn't mean this as it is written. Would you banish people from responsible policy positions for their belief - not for what they teach - but, as your post says for their merely being a creation believer in a classroom? I noticed that you didn't say the creationist shouldn't teach creationism, but shouldn't be teaching a biology class if their are a creationist. Neither do you want certain belief holders making laws. Would you prohibit holders of such beliefs from being elected to public office?

You'll have to define a "responsible" policy position for someone's belief. After all, slavery used to be a "responsible" policy position that was justified using scripture. How about you let your personal religious beliefs run your own personal life and separate that from public policy. Not everyone believes exactly the same. If someone can't separate the two then maybe they shouldn't be in a position of making public policy.
 
I read about this a few months ago. If I recall, the reason he was fired was for unauthorized usage of the microscope which is very expensive to use.

Considering that they hired him knowing he was a Liberty University grad, it seems unlikely he was fired simply for being a creationist.

It also should be mentioned that creationists are notorious for making false claims of discrimination. The Ben Stein movie from a few years ago was full of examples.
The university hasn't given their reasoning publicly. So we will have to wait until trial to hear their side of the story.
 
Commendable post, Goat, but a question or two if you please - and perhaps you didn't mean this as it is written. Would you banish people from responsible policy positions for their belief - not for what they teach - but, as your post says for their merely being a creation believer in a classroom? I noticed that you didn't say the creationist shouldn't teach creationism, but shouldn't be teaching a biology class if their are a creationist. Neither do you want certain belief holders making laws. Would you prohibit holders of such beliefs from being elected to public office?
Insofar as I had legal power to do so, yes. In other words, said person won't be getting my vote.
 
A possible defense for the university might be found in this link which quotes a EEOC spokesperson as follows,

US anti-discrimination laws require employers to reasonably accommodate an employee’s beliefs or religious practices, unless doing so would cause ‘undue hardship’ to the employer, says Justine Lisser, a spokesperson for the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

The link has some other interesting information regarding the case.

 
This isn't exactly breaking news, but it's making the rounds in the EvC community right now. There is a case in California right now, by which an avowed creationist is suing California State Unvieristy-Northridge for a wide array of things, all relating to the claim that he was fired for being a creationist. You can read the complaint here, if you like.

Anyway, the short version is this. Mark Armitage is a Young Earth Creationist who was, by all accounts, an excellent microscope technician. Despite having his undergraduate degree in education from Liberty University, and no accredited graduate work (he has a "Masters" in biology from the temporary college that had been set up by the Institute of Creation Research, which was never accredited), he still seems to be a smart guy with a good work ethic, and was very good at what he did, which was basically run the scanning electron microscope lab at CSUN.

Well, as a hobby, he went searching for dinosaur bones with some other creationists in the famous Hell Creek Formation (known for being a goldmine of late Cretaceous fossils), hoping to replicate the respectable (but controversial) work of scientists like Mary Higby Schweitzer, who first isolated apparent soft tissue from dinosaur fossils. They came across a Triceratops horn, trekked it back to California, and he studied it in his lab. Lo and behold, he found soft tissue.

He and a co-author published their findings in the reputable Acta Histochemica. I can't link the text here, but if you are on Facebook, you can join our EvC community page, where we have the text posted. Anyway, the article was well-written, positively-received by peers, and not written with any kind of religious or political slant. It simply presented the authors' findings and offered a discussion of the implications. They did not overstep. For a guy without any actual recognized scientific degree, it was very well done.

Well, somehow, this led to a series of (disputed) events that culminated in his firing. Here's where Goat goes off the reservation.

If the man was fired for being a creationist, this is a travesty. I certainly do not want creationism taught in public secondary schools (or private schools that accept vouchers). I do not want science-deniers to have control over public policy. If you don't accept global warming, I say, good for you, but I don't want you passing environmental laws. If you are an anti-vaxxer, I say, good for you, but I don't want you in charge of public health policy. And if you are a creationist, I say, good for you, but I don't want you teaching a captive audience in a public biology classroom. In other words, from a policy and legal perspective, I give great respect to established scientific thought, mostly because history has shown science to work.

But a university is a whole different setting. At college, students are not a captive audience, and, intellectually (if not legally) more importantly, they should be expected to be exposed to theories that challenge their assumptions. I want students in college to study things that push them to the limit. Firing someone from a university position for being a creationist is, to me, just as misguided as firing someone for being a socialist and teaching Das Kapital as reverently as one can. It might make us feel better to "protect" students from things that we think are wrong, but that's not the purpose of a university. The purpose of a university is to expand horizons, not restrict them.

Now, I don't know how good this guy's case really is. His complaint sounds convincing, but it's also the case that he was not in a tenure-track position. He was essentially a lab tech, nothing more. This case may get thrown out. Still, despite the fact that I disagree with him, I find it troubling from an intellectual point of view that he might have been fired from a university simply for holding incorrect beliefs. A vibrant university culture needs to include access to all beliefs - correct and incorrect, both.

Thoughts?
Two thoughts

First check the "same supervisor" rule. If I represented the university that argument and what it says about causation brings the case to SJ territory.

Second. For someone who gives the appearance of the precise use of language and being driven by science, you are incredibly sloppy with terms like "science deniers," "climate deniers" and "accepting global warming" as a means to form opinions about people and opinions. Those terms mean nothing important. Yet you use them, not as objective metrics, but instead, as a means to marginalize reasonable opinions contrary to your own and to which you have no response except predictable contrary opinions.
 
Two thoughts

First check the "same supervisor" rule. If I represented the university that argument and what it says about causation brings the case to SJ territory.

Second. For someone who gives the appearance of the precise use of language and being driven by science, you are incredibly sloppy with terms like "science deniers," "climate deniers" and "accepting global warming" as a means to form opinions about people and opinions. Those terms mean nothing important. Yet you use them, not as objective metrics, but instead, as a means to marginalize reasonable opinions contrary to your own and to which you have no response except predictable contrary opinions.

No, I use them as placeholders because in the context of my post, it would have been unwieldly to insert a 40,000-word treatise on exactly what types of global warming denial I'm including. Everyone knows exactly what those terms mean in the context in which I used them. They mean if you don't accept the current near-consensus scientific opinion on certain matters, then I don't want you having any power over making policy concerning those matters.

I notice you didn't take issue with my use of the term "anti-vaxxer."
 
Would you banish people from responsible policy positions for their belief - not for what they teach - but, as your post says for their merely being a creation believer in a classroom?

I don't think that a teacher is a policy position. The teacher can't decide what the curriculum should be . . . that's set a the school board level. I think you captured that distinction correctly when you said:

I noticed that you didn't say the creationist shouldn't teach creationism, but shouldn't be teaching a biology class if their are a creationist.
 
No, I use them as placeholders because in the context of my post, it would have been unwieldly to insert a 40,000-word treatise on exactly what types of global warming denial I'm including. Everyone knows exactly what those terms mean in the context in which I used them. They mean if you don't accept the current near-consensus scientific opinion on certain matters, then I don't want you having any power over making policy concerning those matters.

I notice you didn't take issue with my use of the term "anti-vaxxer."

I don't think you have a clue of what you are talking about

"global warming denial"? "Place holder"? "near consensus scientific opinion"? What the hell are you trying to say?

You used the term "climate denier" specifically about me. What are you trying to say about me? You never explained despite my specific questions about that. If your "near consensus" is in reference to the Cook study, you are simply a leftist shill for AGW. First Cook didn't do a scientific study. Second that study wasn't of the "science".

I think you use "denier" for anyone who disagrees with you. That isn't very scientific.
 
I don't think you have a clue of what you are talking about

"global warming denial"? "Place holder"? "near consensus scientific opinion"? What the hell are you trying to say?

You used the term "climate denier" specifically about me. What are you trying to say about me? You never explained despite my specific questions about that. If your "near consensus" is in reference to the Cook study, you are simply a leftist shill for AGW. First Cook didn't do a scientific study. Second that study wasn't of the "science".

I think you use "denier" for anyone who disagrees with you. That isn't very scientific.
I was not using the term about you. I wasn't even thinking about you when I wrote the post. I'm not sure if that's what your accusing me of, or if you're only referring back to previous conversations, but I want to be clear on that.

I meant only what I said: I do not want people who don't accept current scientific thought about certain topics in positions to make policy on those topics, just as I do not want people teaching creationism in public schools to a captive (and impressionable) audience. "Science-denier" was simply a generic term to refer to people who deny accepted scientific thought. I offered people "who don't accept global warming" and "anti-vaxxers" as two examples. Everyone knows what those two phrases mean. You nit-picking about my use of these terms is roughly the equivalent of criticizing someone for using the term "pro-life" instead of "supportive of legal restrictions on the practice of abortion." Everyone knows what "pro-life" means. It's okay to use the term.

I mentioned these things only for contrast against the actual point of my post, which was that I do not have a problem with a creationist working in a university setting, even if he does share his opinions with students, and if he was fired for either being a creationist or for talking about it, I think that is a travesty. In college, I expect students to be exposed to a lot of conflicting ideas, even some that are horribly, undoubtedly wrong. I think it's an important part of a well-rounded university education. Furthermore, I think firing academics - even if he was not an actual professor, and just a lab tech, he was still engaging in genuine academic pursuit when he published that paper - simply for being incorrect is a very dangerous precedent to set. We know that young earth creationism is wrong; we're more sure of it than just about anything else in the entire world of science, so this seems like an easy thing to pass judgment on. But the next guy who is canned for promoting a disfavored theory might turn out to have stumbled upon something genius. Without the freedom to share his ideas, we'll never know.

BTW, according to Rivals.com search function, I have not used either of the phrases "climate denier" or "climate denial" since at least Oct 27, 2014. I don't recall ever accusing you or anyone of being a "climate denier."
 
You used the word "denier" about me a within the last few weeks

But that doesn't matter. Here's the problem with your point. People, like Obama, can agree with your "current scientific thought" about AGW and we shouldn't want him making policy either. His proposals, according to the majority of scientific opinion will have a minuscule impact on temperature change, so minuscule that it is within the margin of error for OBSERVED temperature change, let alone modeled predictions. Meanwhile, he will wreck certain economic sectors, while driving some other individuals deeper into the poverty cycle. There are hundreds if not thousands of different aspects to climate and why it changes. It isn't possible, and never was possible, to state with certainty where the majority opinion lies in the nuances of the physics and chemistry of the atmosphere--except for the 4 or 5 obvious points that everyone agrees to. Hell, the experts can't even agree if clouds are a positive or negative feedback let alone agree on whether more CO2 increases cloud cover. The use of the word "denier" in this context is absolutely meaningless now, and it was probably just as meaningless 10 or 15 years ago. But back then, we didn't know much beyond the fact that combustion releases carbon and carbon forms a greenhouse gas. Yet, you continue to use "denier" merely as a political statement, not as a statement about science. Time to knock if off, no? After all, you profess to be all about science.
 
You used the word "denier" about me a within the last few weeks

But that doesn't matter. Here's the problem with your point. People, like Obama, can agree with your "current scientific thought" about AGW and we shouldn't want him making policy either. His proposals, according to the majority of scientific opinion will have a minuscule impact on temperature change, so minuscule that it is within the margin of error for OBSERVED temperature change, let alone modeled predictions. Meanwhile, he will wreck certain economic sectors, while driving some other individuals deeper into the poverty cycle. There are hundreds if not thousands of different aspects to climate and why it changes. It isn't possible, and never was possible, to state with certainty where the majority opinion lies in the nuances of the physics and chemistry of the atmosphere--except for the 4 or 5 obvious points that everyone agrees to. Hell, the experts can't even agree if clouds are a positive or negative feedback let alone agree on whether more CO2 increases cloud cover. The use of the word "denier" in this context is absolutely meaningless now, and it was probably just as meaningless 10 or 15 years ago. But back then, we didn't know much beyond the fact that combustion releases carbon and carbon forms a greenhouse gas. Yet, you continue to use "denier" merely as a political statement, not as a statement about science. Time to knock if off, no? After all, you profess to be all about science.
A Pew poll from last year showed that conservatives in general were significantly more likely to believe that global warming isn't even happening. Whatever our disagreements about how serious it is, or what should be done about it on a policy level, "people who don't accept global warming" seems to me to be a very suitable term for these people. There is no question that the earth is warming. People who deny that are, by definition, unaccepting of global warming. And there are a lot of them.

As for everything else in your post, it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of my OP. You keep taking issue with the fact that I used a simple phrase to refer to a specific group of people. I'm sorry you didn't like it, but you're just plain out of line. Everyone knows what a "person who does not accept global warming" is. He's a person who rejects clear scientific evidence and denies that the earth is warming. Labeling this group of people was all that was needed in my post, because my post was not about global warming. If it were, I can see why you'd expect me to go into more detail. But the only thing I needed in my original post was an acknowledgement that they exist.
 
I don't want to relitigate old issues--but . . . .

The RSS data, which is calculated and not modeled shows a more or less constant temps for 17 years. The surface temperature data, (3 or 4 different varieties) all of which are modeled, and not calculated, do show a warming trend (after also modeling the historic record). The former is lower atmosphere while the latter is "surface" which has no real definition. Solid evidence isn't so solid. But this isn't really the point is it?
 
I don't want to relitigate old issues--but . . . .

The RSS data, which is calculated and not modeled shows a more or less constant temps for 17 years. The surface temperature data, (3 or 4 different varieties) all of which are modeled, and not calculated, do show a warming trend (after also modeling the historic record). The former is lower atmosphere while the latter is "surface" which has no real definition. Solid evidence isn't so solid. But this isn't really the point is it?

No, it doesn't.

Your next two sentences are babbling nonsense.
 
I don't know why science teachers don't welcome "creation science" into the classroom. And then ask students to prove it using the scientific method...

Seems to me it would be a lot more effective in showing it has no scientific basis than to make the claim that it just doesn't belong.
 
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I don't know why science teachers don't welcome "creation science" into the classroom. And then ask students to prove it using the scientific method...

Seems to me it would be a lot more effective in showing it has no scientific basis than to make the claim that it just doesn't belong.
I have no problem with that. Teaching it as a valid scientific theory in public secondary schools is the problem, because that's a violation of the First Amendment. Simply acknowledging it exists and demonstrating why it is unscientific* would be a good idea.

* As long as it isn't paired with "And that's why your religion is wrong," which would have its own FA problems.
 
I have no problem with that. Teaching it as a valid scientific theory in public secondary schools is the problem, because that's a violation of the First Amendment. Simply acknowledging it exists and demonstrating why it is unscientific* would be a good idea.

* As long as it isn't paired with "And that's why your religion is wrong," which would have its own FA problems.
It might be fun to offer anyone in the class an automatic A without having to do any other assignment if they can do it.
 
A possible defense for the university might be found in this link which quotes a EEOC spokesperson as follows,

US anti-discrimination laws require employers to reasonably accommodate an employee’s beliefs or religious practices, unless doing so would cause ‘undue hardship’ to the employer, says Justine Lisser, a spokesperson for the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

The link has some other interesting information regarding the case.
I've been looking and looking and looking. Nothing more recent that that article. I think we're pretty much as fully informed as possible until something else happens.

They are scheduled for a hearing in a couple of months. Or perhaps trial. Hard to tell. The LA Superior Court online docket website is a friggin' mess.
 
By the way, if you take the time to read this article, you may learn both why your statements about RSS data are incorrect, and why your distinction between "calculation" and "model" is babbling nonsense.

Babbling nonsense about babbling nonsense

I am well aware of the difference in actually calculating heat variability from microwave sounding units vs modeling the variability by inputting data from proxies into a computer algorithm. Spare me the condescending attitude.

Satellite data is hugely more reliable than surface data (particularly when much of the surface data must be modeled from different proxy locations). In fact the Huntsville data shows a slightly shorter pause than the RSS data.

I don't mind an intelligent discussion about this stuff, but you need to dump the scientific superior attitude in those areas about which there is no "97% consensus". (Upper left of your link kinda destroys its credibility)
 
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Babbling nonsense about babbling nonsense

I am well aware of the difference in actually calculating heat variability from microwave sounding units vs modeling the variability by inputting data from proxies into a computer algorithm. Spare me the condescending attitude.

Satellite data is hugely more reliable than surface data (particularly when much of the surface data must be modeled from different proxy locations). In fact the Huntsville data shows a slightly shorter pause than the RSS data.

I don't mind an intelligent discussion about this stuff, but you need to dump the scientific superior attitude in those areas about which there is no "97% consensus". (Upper left of your link kinda destroys its credibility)
No, you clearly do not understand. This entire post is babbling nonsense, although in this case, it is defensive babbling nonsense. Let me give you some freebies:

The Huntsville data and RSS data are simply two slightly different interpretations of the exact same measurements.

Both satellite and surface datasets are extrapolated from a discrete number of measurements. The very fact that you think there is a distinction between "calculating" one and "modeling" the other proves that you have no idea what you are talking about.

There is no good reason to think one is better than the other. They are much more useful if they confirm each other, rather than disagree.

Research shows that they do match each other very well. Both surface and satellite data show the same short- and long-term trends.

And an extra: there is no "pause." At least, not a meaningful one. You can create just about any short-term trend you want by arbitrarily setting the start point for the one that most fits your desired result. This whole 17-year pause in warming is simply a retread, an almost word-for-word copy of when someone noticed that a particular 17-year series of microwave measurements showed a negative slope from 1979-1995. It was easily explained then just as it is easily explained now. It's the result of nothing more than arbitrarily selecting a too-short timeframe in order to get a previously desired result. Dedication to this faulty idea of a pause is yet more evidence that you simply don't understand the science.

Am I being condescending? Probably. But that is because I (and others) have repeatedly tried to explain to you why your take on this topic is mistaken, and you have stubbornly refused to listen, instead simply spouting long passages of important sounding nonsense words as a response. Your posts on this subject only prove one thing: that you do not understand it. And now your stubbornness caused you to inject the same tired fight into a thread that wasn't even about climate change. And then you have the gall to say you don't want to go over old fights again? You have the nerve to get defensive about my exasperation?

Here's one last freebie for you: if you don't want me to point out that you don't know what the hell you are talking about, stop talking. This thread was supposed to be about creationism, not global warming. If you want to ruin my thread by turning it into yet another vehicle for your pseudoscience nonsense, then I am damn well going to point out that what you are saying is pseudoscience nonsense.
 
No, you clearly do not understand. This entire post is babbling nonsense, although in this case, it is defensive babbling nonsense. Let me give you some freebies:

The Huntsville data and RSS data are simply two slightly different interpretations of the exact same measurements.

Both satellite and surface datasets are extrapolated from a discrete number of measurements. The very fact that you think there is a distinction between "calculating" one and "modeling" the other proves that you have no idea what you are talking about.

There is no good reason to think one is better than the other. They are much more useful if they confirm each other, rather than disagree.

Research shows that they do match each other very well. Both surface and satellite data show the same short- and long-term trends.

And an extra: there is no "pause." At least, not a meaningful one. You can create just about any short-term trend you want by arbitrarily setting the start point for the one that most fits your desired result. This whole 17-year pause in warming is simply a retread, an almost word-for-word copy of when someone noticed that a particular 17-year series of microwave measurements showed a negative slope from 1979-1995. It was easily explained then just as it is easily explained now. It's the result of nothing more than arbitrarily selecting a too-short timeframe in order to get a previously desired result. Dedication to this faulty idea of a pause is yet more evidence that you simply don't understand the science.

Am I being condescending? Probably. But that is because I (and others) have repeatedly tried to explain to you why your take on this topic is mistaken, and you have stubbornly refused to listen, instead simply spouting long passages of important sounding nonsense words as a response. Your posts on this subject only prove one thing: that you do not understand it. And now your stubbornness caused you to inject the same tired fight into a thread that wasn't even about climate change. And then you have the gall to say you don't want to go over old fights again? You have the nerve to get defensive about my exasperation?

Here's one last freebie for you: if you don't want me to point out that you don't know what the hell you are talking about, stop talking. This thread was supposed to be about creationism, not global warming. If you want to ruin my thread by turning it into yet another vehicle for your pseudoscience nonsense, then I am damn well going to point out that what you are saying is pseudoscience nonsense.

Well if there is no pause

Then why do so many "climate scientists" accept it and then proceed to explain it in different ways? I have read scores if not hundreds of pieces about the pause from both sides of the debate. The AGW adherents comments about the pause fall into a number of different scenarios, some, like the link you found, (btw I read this one months ago) say there is no pause, others say there is a pause but it is explained by natural variability that should be cooling now instead of a mere pause, others say the oceans are unexpectedly absorbing more heat, some say heat is stored in other ways e.g. see here.

Here is your problem. You are so reflexively liberal in everything, including climate change, that you cannot understand your own arguments least of all what I am saying. You don't even understand the limits of the Cook 97% survey--which you often refer to by means other than its name. There are number of things you point out that a group of AGW adherents offer about which there is nowhere near 97% agreement. Just cuz a study or a survey supports you POV doesn't mean there is 97% agreement.

But in the final analysis what difference does this all make? It is generally agreed, even among AGW adherents, that Obama's policy proposals are meaningless, or nearly so, and he has offered some fairly drastic ones. The reasons for advocating those have pushed through the limits of science and are now in the realm of liberal political policy. That isn't very scientific.
 
I've been looking and looking and looking. Nothing more recent that that article. I think we're pretty much as fully informed as possible until something else happens.

They are scheduled for a hearing in a couple of months. Or perhaps trial. Hard to tell. The LA Superior Court online docket website is a friggin' mess.

LA Superior Court docket?

I can't imagine why the university didn't remove the case.

You never commented about the proximate cause issues in the case. Seems to me that the plaintiff's creationists views were well known for. Based upon the materials provided, the plaintiff has not alleged a sustainable pretextual case.
 
LA Superior Court docket?

I can't imagine why the university didn't remove the case.

You never commented about the proximate cause issues in the case. Seems to me that the plaintiff's creationists views were well known for. Based upon the materials provided, the plaintiff has not alleged a sustainable pretextual case.
Sorry, I don't understand the question. You mentioned the "same supervisor" rule, before, but I don't know if that's relevant. His only federal claim is the 1938 claim on free speech grounds. The actual discrimination charges are under California law. I don't know what makes up a prima facie claim under FEHA.
 
Here is your problem. You are so reflexively liberal in everything, including climate change, that you cannot understand your own arguments least of all what I am saying. You don't even understand the limits of the Cook 97% survey--which you often refer to by means other than its name. There are number of things you point out that a group of AGW adherents offer about which there is nowhere near 97% agreement. Just cuz a study or a survey supports you POV doesn't mean there is 97% agreement.

But in the final analysis what difference does this all make? It is generally agreed, even among AGW adherents, that Obama's policy proposals are meaningless, or nearly so, and he has offered some fairly drastic ones. The reasons for advocating those have pushed through the limits of science and are now in the realm of liberal political policy. That isn't very scientific.

Accusing me of being blinded by partisanship is rich when all you do is regurgitate conservative talking points that have no basis in reality

I didn't say there was no pause. I said there was no meaningful pause. As in, it's not special. There are 10-20 year periods of slower increases all over the temperature record. We have a decent handle on why - ocean cycles. But no matter. The point is they do not support the idea that global warming is overstated. There is a clear overall warming trend.

You bring up Obama (because, of course you do). I have not said anything about Obama's environmental or climate change policy. I am criticizing the people who look at clear scientific evidence and claim that the phenomenon isn't even happening. The fact that you cannot separate observation from policy concerns illustrates your partisan blinders, not mine. That you don't agree with a particular politician's proposed response to global warming has no bearing on whether or not global warming is occurring. When you deny (there's that word again!) facts because you don't like how they relate to your preferred policy, you are the one engaging in faulty thinking.
 
Good grief

You are off of the rails now.

"There is a clear overall warming trend." So stipulated. I never said otherwise. The science skeptics say likewise.

"separate observation from policy concerns illustrates your partisan blinders,". The whole point of the consistent debate about AGW in everything from Obama's SOTU to presidential debates, to congressional action is all about the policy response to the science. Otherwise we might as well argue about who is going to win the World Series.
 
Good grief

You are off of the rails now.

"There is a clear overall warming trend." So stipulated. I never said otherwise. The science skeptics say likewise.

"separate observation from policy concerns illustrates your partisan blinders,". The whole point of the consistent debate about AGW in everything from Obama's SOTU to presidential debates, to congressional action is all about the policy response to the science. Otherwise we might as well argue about who is going to win the World Series.
As I have explained and the Pew study illustrates, there are a lot of conservatives who deny even the basic fact that the earth is warming. They are the only people I was criticizing. You are the one leaving the rails.
 
As I have explained and the Pew study illustrates, there are a lot of conservatives who deny even the basic fact that the earth is warming. They are the only people I was criticizing. You are the one leaving the rails.
Nice try

First the Pew study was about "solid evidence". Second, given the popular political context of the poll and question, Pew did a crappy job of separating AGW from W. I don't place much stock in the poll. I would have worded the question differently and better.
 
Nice try

First the Pew study was about "solid evidence". Second, given the popular political context of the poll and question, Pew did a crappy job of separating AGW from W. I don't place much stock in the poll. I would have worded the question differently and better.
See, your not a global warming denier. You are a global warming denier denier. You refuse to admit the existence of the deniers.

Significant numbers of conservatives answered that global warming is not happening as the reason they are not concerned. Your problem with the study is that it proves a large number of your political allies are nutjobs.
 
See, your not a global warming denier. You are a global warming denier denier. You refuse to admit the existence of the deniers.

Significant numbers of conservatives answered that global warming is not happening as the reason they are not concerned. Your problem with the study is that it proves a large number of your political allies are nutjobs.

Heh, you got me

I can't deny the nut job factor. But then neither can you.

BTW, speaking of global warming, winter storm warnings issued throughout the colorado mountains today.
 
BTW, speaking of global warming, winter storm warnings issued throughout the colorado mountains today.
I don't know much off the top of my head about weather out there. Is it exceptionally late for winter storms?

If so, is this late snowfall going to be good for the drought, or is it going to be a flood concern?

FWIW, I don't deny my nutjobs. You'll note I have equal disdain for anti-vaxxers, who tend to be much more liberal.
 
I don't know much off the top of my head about weather out there. Is it exceptionally late for winter storms?

If so, is this late snowfall going to be good for the drought, or is it going to be a flood concern?

FWIW, I don't deny my nutjobs. You'll note I have equal disdain for anti-vaxxers, who tend to be much more liberal.

It's kinda late

But not unheard of. Snow squalls can happen throughout the summer in the high country. Storm warnings suggest significant accumulations, at least enough cause dangerous roads and to get the plows out. I was up at my cabin over the weekend to awake it from its winter sleep and to try out my new Tenkara fly rod. Cold the first day and snow the second. I'm now a fair-weather fisherman, didn't wet the line. The damn pelicans were all over the lake like stink on excrement gorging on big trout.

Not much drought relief. Snow pack on the Eastern Slope is already over 100% of normal while the Western Slope is in the 60-70% level. This storm won't change those figures much. Flash flood warnings are up on the Eastern slope because of thunderstorms at lower elevations and the ground is saturated from several weeks of almost daily rain.
 
I don't know why science teachers don't welcome "creation science" into the classroom. And then ask students to prove it using the scientific method...

Seems to me it would be a lot more effective in showing it has no scientific basis than to make the claim that it just doesn't belong.

I went to catholic elementary school and we had science class and then we had religion class. They were taught by the same teacher and kept completely separate. Like, our teacher never stopped in the middle of religion class to say "now, your science book will try to tell you..."

At least back in the 80s people understood science and religion are completely separate subjects. Now science is a left wing conspiracy and we all hate God.
 
I don't know much off the top of my head about weather out there. Is it exceptionally late for winter storms?

If so, is this late snowfall going to be good for the drought, or is it going to be a flood concern?

FWIW, I don't deny my nutjobs. You'll note I have equal disdain for anti-vaxxers, who tend to be much more liberal.
How about when the nutjob is the former Minority Leader of the US Senate? Is this someone who should be making economic policy?

SEN. REID: One of the things that always troubles me is, when we start talking about the debt, the first thing people do is run to Social Security. Social Security is a program that works, and it's going to be--it's fully funded for the next 40 years. Stop picking on Social Security. There are a lot places we can go to...

MR. GREGORY: Senator, you're really saying the arithmetic on Social Security works?

SEN. REID: I'm saying the arithmetic on Social Security works. I have no doubt it does. For the next...

MR. GREGORY: It's not in crisis?

SEN. REID: No, it's not in crisis. This is, this is, this is something that's perpetuated by people who don't like government. Social Security is fine.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/01/10/934784/-Thank-You-Senator-Harry-Reid#
 
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