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The Stars and Bars

That's a good essay, but it sets aside the Confederate flag's historical meaning, arguing only that -- whatever it once may have represented -- it now represents racism. Ta Nehisi-Coates fills that gap: It's always been about racism:*

This afternoon, in announcing her support for removing the Confederate flag from the capitol grounds, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley asserted that killer Dylann Roof had a “a sick and twisted view of the flag” which did not reflect “the people in our state who respect and in many ways revere it.” If the governor meant that very few of the flag’s supporters believe in mass murder, she is surely right. But on the question of whose view of the Confederate Flag is more twisted, she is almost certainly wrong.

Roof’s belief that black life had no purpose beyond subjugation is “sick and twisted” in the exact same manner as the beliefs of those who created the Confederate flag were “sick and twisted.” The Confederate flag is directly tied to the Confederate cause, and the Confederate cause was white supremacy. This claim is not the result of revisionism. It does not require reading between the lines. It is the plain meaning of the words of those who bore the Confederate flag across history.

. . . Nikki Haley deserves credit for calling for the removal of the Confederate flag. She deserves criticism for couching that removal as matter of manners. At the present moment the effort to remove the flag is being cast as matter of politesse, a matter over which reasonable people may disagree. The flag is a “painful symbol” concedes David French. Its removal might “offer relief to those genuinely hurt,” writes Ian Tuttle. “To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred,” tweeted Mitt Romney. The flag has been “misappropriated by hate groups,” claims South Carolina senator Tom Davis.

This mythology of manners is adopted in lieu of the mythology of the Lost Cause. But it still has the great drawback of being rooted in a lie. The Confederate flag should not come down because it is offensive to African Americans. The Confederate flag should come down because it is embarrassing to all Americans. The embarrassment is not limited to the flag, itself. The fact that it still flies, that one must debate its meaning in 2015, reflects an incredible ignorance. A century and a half after Lincoln was killed, after 750,000 of our ancestors died, Americans still aren’t quite sure why.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
*Click the link for numerous quotations that abundantly establish TNC's historical point.
 
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Up until the early 90s, my sister's high school in Toledo, OHIO, used the Confederate battle flag at all of their sporting events. The football team was led onto the field behind the flag while Dixie was played. They got rid of the flag (and soon after Dixie), but they are still known as the Rebels and their colors are red and Columbia Blue. Why would they name a school at the far north edge of Ohio the Rebels? Because the school is located on the south side of Toledo! No joke. And the school was about 30% African-American all through the 80s and 90s (possibly closer to 40%).

To this day I still can't believe it took them until the early 1990s to stop using the flag. They dropped it as their official school symbol in 1980, but it was still used at football games and the like until 1992.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=TgMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6314,5911891&hl=en
 
That's a good essay, but it sets aside the Confederate flag's historical meaning, arguing only that -- whatever it once may have represented -- it now represents racism. Ta Nehisi-Coates fills that gap: It's always been about racism:*

This afternoon, in announcing her support for removing the Confederate flag from the capitol grounds, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley asserted that killer Dylann Roof had a “a sick and twisted view of the flag” which did not reflect “the people in our state who respect and in many ways revere it.” If the governor meant that very few of the flag’s supporters believe in mass murder, she is surely right. But on the question of whose view of the Confederate Flag is more twisted, she is almost certainly wrong.

Roof’s belief that black life had no purpose beyond subjugation is “sick and twisted” in the exact same manner as the beliefs of those who created the Confederate flag were “sick and twisted.” The Confederate flag is directly tied to the Confederate cause, and the Confederate cause was white supremacy. This claim is not the result of revisionism. It does not require reading between the lines. It is the plain meaning of the words of those who bore the Confederate flag across history.

. . . Nikki Haley deserves credit for calling for the removal of the Confederate flag. She deserves criticism for couching that removal as matter of manners. At the present moment the effort to remove the flag is being cast as matter of politesse, a matter over which reasonable people may disagree. The flag is a “painful symbol” concedes David French. Its removal might “offer relief to those genuinely hurt,” writes Ian Tuttle. “To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred,” tweeted Mitt Romney. The flag has been “misappropriated by hate groups,” claims South Carolina senator Tom Davis.

This mythology of manners is adopted in lieu of the mythology of the Lost Cause. But it still has the great drawback of being rooted in a lie. The Confederate flag should not come down because it is offensive to African Americans. The Confederate flag should come down because it is embarrassing to all Americans. The embarrassment is not limited to the flag, itself. The fact that it still flies, that one must debate its meaning in 2015, reflects an incredible ignorance. A century and a half after Lincoln was killed, after 750,000 of our ancestors died, Americans still aren’t quite sure why.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
*Click the link for numerous quotations that abundantly establish TNC's historical point.

I've always been curious, even from a younger age, why the confederate flag is allowed at all. Isn't it the flag of an enemy of the United States?
 
Of course the nickname of one of the two local high schools in the township where I live is the Redskins. And there is a strong contingent of alumni who raise hell whenever there is talk that the name is offensive.
 
I've always been curious, even from a younger age, why the confederate flag is allowed at all. Isn't it the flag of an enemy of the United States?
In my opinion the Mississippi state flag is even worse than South Carolina's flying of the Confederate Battle Flag over the capital. The Mississippi state flag is essentially a combination of the first national flag of the Confederacy and the Battle Flag (but with one blue bar instead of two red bars as in the first Confederate flag).



225px-Flag_of_Mississippi.svg.png
 
I've always been curious, even from a younger age, why the confederate flag is allowed at all. Isn't it the flag of an enemy of the United States?

Free speech. It isn't hard conceptually to understand why it is "allowed".

What is hard to understand is why it is an official symbol of a state 150 years after the civil war ended. My guess is that it's been about comity; letting one group have a little something - a symbol only - to mollify them while the state and country worked to reconcile - to create a new balance - on the issues that remained when the civil war was over. That works so long as the symbol doesn't become a "justification" for someone to act in a way that undermines the state's and country's ability to continue and complete that reconciliation.

BTW, as to Rock's post regarding manners, I would simply like to say that the discussion in his post does a disservice to the whole concept of manners. In current popular culture "manners" have become synonymous with knowing which fork to use at a fancy dinner, but manners really developed as a way to keep emotions from escalating out of control by dictating the way we treat each other, particularly in difficult circumstances. I'm all for an application of good manners in this circumstance, which in my view would include removal of the confederate flag as an official state symbol. If Haley wants to leaven that change with a bone tossed in the direction of the states rights crowd . . . well, her official description of the shooter's interpretation of what the flag means will stand as an official proscription against anyone using it for the shooter's purposes again. Sometimes a little sugar really can make the medicine go down easier. Why not?
 
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Free speech. It isn't hard conceptually to understand why it is "allowed".

What is hard to understand is why it is an official symbol of a state 150 years after the civil war ended. My guess is that it's been about comity; letting one group have a little something - a symbol only - to mollify them while the state and country worked to reconcile - to create a new balance - on the issues that remained when the civil war was over. That works so long as the symbol doesn't become a "justification" for someone to act in a way that undermines the state's and country's ability to continue and complete that reconciliation.

BTW, as to Rock's post regarding manners, I would simply like to say that the discussion in his post does a disservice to the whole concept of manners. In current popular culture "manners" have become synonymous with knowing which fork to use at a fancy dinner, but manners really developed as a way to keep emotions from escalating out of control by dictating the way we treat each other, particularly in difficult circumstances. I'm all for an application of good manners in this circumstance, which in my view would include removal of the confederate flag as an official state symbol. If Haley wants to leaven that change with a bone tossed in the direction of the states rights crowd . . . well, her official description of the shooter's interpretation of what the flag means will stand as an official proscription against anyone using it for the shooter's purposes again. Sometimes a little sugar really can make the medicine go down easier. Why not?

Extreme example, but if somehow a bunch of neo nazis get elected to the state legislature they could pass a law requiring the nazi flag to be flown at the state capital? To them it's a "heritage" thing. Free speech, if you will.

And I'm strictly talking about state laws and state capitals flying the flag. I realize rednecks can fly it if they please, just like white supremacist groups can have the nazi flag on their car or in their home.
 
Extreme example, but if somehow a bunch of neo nazis get elected to the state legislature they could pass a law requiring the nazi flag to be flown at the state capital? To them it's a "heritage" thing. Free speech, if you will.

And I'm strictly talking about state laws and state capitals flying the flag. I realize rednecks can fly it if they please, just like white supremacist groups can have the nazi flag on their car or in their home.

Sure, if they're elected and can pass the law, they could require a nazi flag to be flown at the state capitol. There's nothing that precludes that from happening . . . except us voters.

Witness the power of a democracy, Super. It can be used for good or ill . . . but it's still powerful. The theory of a democracy is that voters can distinguish between good policy and clever, temporary manipulation. That's why folks need to vote . . . some are susceptible to that manipulation, others can see through it.
 
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This guy can think and writes well. Very good read. He calls out his friends after reading his Facebook. http://www.organicstudentministry.c...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork
For some reason your link didn't work.

Your handle reminded me that South Spencer uses the nickname of the Rebels. I am not big into changing school names, but is there going to be a move to change team names as well?

The flag doesn't stir any feelings at all to me, other than the person with the flag has some connection to the south. My family moved into Southern Illinois in the 1840's from North Carolina and founded the community of West Salem, Ill.

I know it isn't quite the same as the Nazi flag, but to some, it probably isn't a very inviting thing to see hanging in a small rural town in the south. I hate that some use a flag for southern pride when it stands for treason and a battle flag against the USA. The flag should have been retired to museums after the Civil War. The Nazi flag isn't still flown on government buildings in Germany, or at least I would hope it isn't.
 
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For some reason your link didn't work.

Your handle reminded me that South Spencer uses the nickname of the Rebels. I am not big into changing school names, but is there going to be a move to change team names as well?

The flag doesn't stir any feelings at all to me, other than the person with the flag has some connection to the south. My family moved into Southern Illinois in the 1840's from North Carolina and founded the community of West Salem, Ill.

I know it isn't quite the same as the Nazi flag, but to some, it probably isn't a very inviting thing to see hanging in a small rural town in the south. I hate that some use a flag for southern pride when it stands for treason and a battle flag against the USA. The flag should have been retired to museums after the Civil War. The Nazi flag isn't still flown on government buildings in Germany, or at least I would hope it isn't.
Keep playing with the link because it is a good read. Type it in if need be for it is worth the time. South Spencer don't use the Flag as a school symbol but I would love to see a change in the nickname. I prefer the South Spencer Flatboat Gamblers. My family started Sessar Ill.
 
Keep playing with the link because it is a good read. Type it in if need be for it is worth the time. South Spencer don't use the Flag as a school symbol but I would love to see a change in the nickname. I prefer the South Spencer Flatboat Gamblers. My family started Sessar Ill.
My son went to the baseball State Championship to cover the game. I watched the end of it on TV. They had a very good season. They should have a strong American Legion team. South Spencer also had a good enough softball team to win state.
 
My son went to the baseball State Championship to cover the game. I watched the end of it on TV. They had a very good season. They should have a strong American Legion team. South Spencer also had a good enough softball team to win state.
Rockport Post 254 is undefeated. Beat Greene Co. last night 21-0. it is going to take a very strong team to beat then in a double elimination tournament.
 
BTW, as to Rock's post regarding manners, I would simply like to say that the discussion in his post does a disservice to the whole concept of manners. In current popular culture "manners" have become synonymous with knowing which fork to use at a fancy dinner, but manners really developed as a way to keep emotions from escalating out of control by dictating the way we treat each other, particularly in difficult circumstances. I'm all for an application of good manners in this circumstance, which in my view would include removal of the confederate flag as an official state symbol. If Haley wants to leaven that change with a bone tossed in the direction of the states rights crowd . . . well, her official description of the shooter's interpretation of what the flag means will stand as an official proscription against anyone using it for the shooter's purposes again. Sometimes a little sugar really can make the medicine go down easier. Why not?
Good manners don't require us to humor those who would whitewash history, or to pretend that the Confederate flag has ever represented anything other than white supremacy. It'd be a good thing if Southern states stopped flying the Confederate flag, but the flag merely symbolizes a mentality that isn't owed any courtesy. It's one thing to indulge a friend in the polite fiction that (for example) s/he has a good singing voice. It's quite another to indulge a significant segment of white Southern society in the myth that an era of treason, rebellion, and violent white supremacy could somehow be fondly recalled.

White conservatives often dismiss any lingering hold that the Civil War may have on us, arguing that black people should just "get over it." When will white Southerners "get over it"? I don't think that humoring dangerous delusions will bring that day any closer.
 
Good manners don't require us to humor those who would whitewash history, or to pretend that the Confederate flag has ever represented anything other than white supremacy. It'd be a good thing if Southern states stopped flying the Confederate flag, but the flag merely symbolizes a mentality that isn't owed any courtesy. It's one thing to indulge a friend in the polite fiction that (for example) s/he has a good singing voice. It's quite another to indulge a significant segment of white Southern society in the myth that an era of treason, rebellion, and violent white supremacy could somehow be fondly recalled.

White conservatives often dismiss any lingering hold that the Civil War may have on us, arguing that black people should just "get over it." When will white Southerners "get over it"? I don't think that humoring dangerous delusions will bring that day any closer.

You don't get anything done that way though. The perception that some of them have of that flag is that it represents (to them) their "Southern-ness". You and I can read a history book and so can they and they can easily dismiss the idea that they hold onto it for racist reasons. So you can have a big fist fight about it and still have that flag flying out there because you've insulted them (and the last polls OR you can take the approach that Haley is taking (and Sope was defending) and tell them that while they may have one few of the flag, these other folks have a completely different view. And that the flag is history and therefore belongs in a museum as opposed to in front of the state house.
 
Extreme example, but if somehow a bunch of neo nazis get elected to the state legislature they could pass a law requiring the nazi flag to be flown at the state capital? To them it's a "heritage" thing. Free speech, if you will.

And I'm strictly talking about state laws and state capitals flying the flag. I realize rednecks can fly it if they please, just like white supremacist groups can have the nazi flag on their car or in their home.

It was a rhetorical question but thanks for the answer. Doesn't really work on a forum. I just don't understand why an enemy flag is allowed to be flown on government property. They were traitors and they lost. You don't get to fly your flag as a consolation prize, but that's just MHO.
Sure, if they're elected and can pass the law, they could require a nazi flag to be flown at the state capitol. There's nothing that precludes that from happening . . . except us voters.

Witness the power of a democracy, Super. It can be used for good or ill . . . but it's still powerful. The theory of a democracy is that voters can distinguish between good policy and clever, temporary manipulation. That's why folks need to vote . . . some are susceptible to that manipulation, others can see through it.

It was a rhetorical question but thanks for the answer. Doesn't really work on a forum. I just don't understand why an enemy flag is allowed to be flown on government property. They were traitors and they lost. You don't get to fly your flag on government/taxpayer property as a consolation prize, but that's just MHO.
 
It was a rhetorical question but thanks for the answer. Doesn't really work on a forum. I just don't understand why an enemy flag is allowed to be flown on government property. They were traitors and they lost. You don't get to fly your flag as a consolation prize, but that's just MHO.


It was a rhetorical question but thanks for the answer. Doesn't really work on a forum. I just don't understand why an enemy flag is allowed to be flown on government property. They were traitors and they lost. You don't get to fly your flag on government/taxpayer property as a consolation prize, but that's just MHO.

Your presumption is that South Caroline remains an enemy. It's not. It's a full fledged member of the United States of America.

And that "government property" you're "protecting" is South Carolina's property, or the property of governmental entities authorized and existing pursuant to the laws of South Carolina. You're not suggesting that South Carolina is an enemy to itself, are you?

You and Rock have significant prejudices about the south and southerners that you really should reexamine and, hopefully modify or discard. They're as anachronistic as the damned confederate flag . . . .
 
Good manners don't require us to humor those who would whitewash history, or to pretend that the Confederate flag has ever represented anything other than white supremacy. It'd be a good thing if Southern states stopped flying the Confederate flag, but the flag merely symbolizes a mentality that isn't owed any courtesy. It's one thing to indulge a friend in the polite fiction that (for example) s/he has a good singing voice. It's quite another to indulge a significant segment of white Southern society in the myth that an era of treason, rebellion, and violent white supremacy could somehow be fondly recalled.

White conservatives often dismiss any lingering hold that the Civil War may have on us, arguing that black people should just "get over it." When will white Southerners "get over it"? I don't think that humoring dangerous delusions will bring that day any closer.

Well, I have never ascribed to you, Rock, expertise regarding what does and doesn't constitute good manners. ;)

As for your last comment about when white southerners will "get over it", believe me, the vast majority of the southern US is way ahead of much of the northern and midwestern US when it comes to diverse groups getting along day-to-day. I've had several recent casual conversations with young black men and women (started with a "Where you from?" icebreaker; most everybody in Atlanta is from somewhere else) in which my counterparts volunteered that they came south because folks up north were entirely unwelcoming; the last was a kid (from Louisville originally) who recently graduated from UToledo and turned down a full ride MBA scholly there to attend Emory here in the ATL - without any scholarship money - because Toledo wasn't a particularly good environment for young black guys. (His cousin is Edward Baker from IU football history . . . .)

Part of the reason the south is moving on with "getting over it" is that we generally recognize the trap of dealing in symbolic speech with too much seriousness. Because we don't focus primarily on symbols as the basis for our being able to get along, we can generally deal with each other on a personal, rather than a symbolic/group identity, basis at work, at schools, in neighborhoods (which I'd bet are far, far less segregated than where you live), and in a growing number of instances, in churches. We can let one guy wear a Malcolm X shirt and the next guy to wear his Redneck farm implements hat and rebel flag T-shirt and actually get along pretty well, because the focus is on each other instead of the effing symbols. That isn't to say things don't blow up . . . but doing an internal eye roll while putting on a smile is certainly a part of the ethos here for everybody, and a good part of the reason why the ATL can work well. It's just good grease for potentially difficult social interactions . . . and surprisingly enough it can facilitate real development of real relationships over time too.

(BTW, the hyper-emphasis on symbols and symbolic speech is one of the main characteristics you share with Iron that places y'all in close company with each other . . . . The other is insistence on having it your way to the exclusion of any compromise - or even well-mannered - results. Sometimes you just have to make room for the imperfect . . . .)
 
I think the idea that the Battle Flag is treasonous or something like that is misguided. If anything, it requires one to buy into the false narrative perpetrated by those who support the flag (by claiming it is about "heritage").

The Battle Flag was used by Lee's Army. After the war, it mostly disappeared, although it was still used in a military aspect, such as by certain regiments in WWI, and so forth.

It started flying in public in the South in the 1960s, not as some remembrance of the vestiges of the Old South, but as a direct repudiation of desegregation.

It is not, in truth, the Confederate Battle Flag. It is not the Remember the South Flag. It is the I Support Segregation Flag. Period. It doesn't mean treason, it doesn't mean history, it doesn't mean tradition or culture. It doesn't mean an enemy of the state. It means the person flying the flag doesn't like black people. That's it.
 
I think the idea that the Battle Flag is treasonous or something like that is misguided. If anything, it requires one to buy into the false narrative perpetrated by those who support the flag (by claiming it is about "heritage").

The Battle Flag was used by Lee's Army. After the war, it mostly disappeared, although it was still used in a military aspect, such as by certain regiments in WWI, and so forth.

It started flying in public in the South in the 1960s, not as some remembrance of the vestiges of the Old South, but as a direct repudiation of desegregation.

It is not, in truth, the Confederate Battle Flag. It is not the Remember the South Flag. It is the I Support Segregation Flag. Period. It doesn't mean treason, it doesn't mean history, it doesn't mean tradition or culture. It doesn't mean an enemy of the state. It means the person flying the flag doesn't like black people. That's it.

Now that's a load, Goat. You're falling into the symbolic speech trap, where someone's use of a symbol can mean only one thing. Welcome to Iron's world . . .

. . . you can't ascribe any motivations to anyone wearing anything, really, until both context and other indicators provide a basis for drawing a reasoned conclusion about what someone's motivation is. Now, if a guy in a pickup truck has a confederate flag trailing behind him and a gun on his hip standing on high steps near a civil rights rally, one might be able to draw a reasoned conclusion about that guy's motivation . . . but someone sitting at a Wendy's eating an Asiago chicken sammich? C'mon . . . you smart enough to know better than this.
 
Now that's a load, Goat. You're falling into the symbolic speech trap, where someone's use of a symbol can mean only one thing. Welcome to Iron's world . . .

. . . you can't ascribe any motivations to anyone wearing anything, really, until both context and other indicators provide a basis for drawing a reasoned conclusion about what someone's motivation is. Now, if a guy in a pickup truck has a confederate flag trailing behind him and a gun on his hip standing on high steps near a civil rights rally, one might be able to draw a reasoned conclusion about that guy's motivation . . . but someone sitting at a Wendy's eating an Asiago chicken sammich? C'mon . . . you smart enough to know better than this.
Hmm...

Are you criticizing my sloppy writing suggesting that racism is the only motivation someone could have for flying a flag? If so, I accept your criticism. That is not what I meant. Long day, in a hurry, I typed it poorly.

Are you also (it almost seems like it) suggesting that the meaning of a symbol is entirely up to the user of that symbol? That's hogwash. The meaning of a symbol is determined by both the speaker and the listener. A point that OP's link made very well.

What I was trying to point out was simply that the historical argument made by some to defend the flag is inaccurate. The flag became a simple in the south as a response to desegregation. That was the motivation at the time.
 
I think the idea that the Battle Flag is treasonous or something like that is misguided. If anything, it requires one to buy into the false narrative perpetrated by those who support the flag (by claiming it is about "heritage").

The Battle Flag was used by Lee's Army. After the war, it mostly disappeared, although it was still used in a military aspect, such as by certain regiments in WWI, and so forth.

It started flying in public in the South in the 1960s, not as some remembrance of the vestiges of the Old South, but as a direct repudiation of desegregation.

It is not, in truth, the Confederate Battle Flag. It is not the Remember the South Flag. It is the I Support Segregation Flag. Period. It doesn't mean treason, it doesn't mean history, it doesn't mean tradition or culture. It doesn't mean an enemy of the state. It means the person flying the flag doesn't like black people. That's it.

The Battle Flag has been in continuous use since the end of the Civil War, including as part of the Mississippi flag for over 100 years. However, it did not really become a symbol of opposition to segregation, and a general symbol of defiance by southerners, until 1948. That was the year that supporters of the Dixiecrats began using the Battle Flag as their symbol (but not officially, as some have claimed). http://www.confederatepastpresent.o...ntion&catid=36:the-civil-rights-era&Itemid=47

But one could argue that the reason it was not used in the same way as it was from the outset of the Civil Rights movement is because the South really had no need for a rallying cry. They were able to continue on mistreating African-Americans for 75+ years after the Civil War ended. Some have also made very cogent arguments that the use of the Confederate flag and the Battle Flag for political statements, commercially, etc. prior to the 1940s was greatly frowned upon in the South because they were seen as sacred emblems of the Confederacy and the millions who died during the Civil War. See: The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem, by John M. Coski.

I generally agree with what you said about the meaning of the Battle Flag today. Just wanted to correct some factual items.
 
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Hmm...

Are you criticizing my sloppy writing suggesting that racism is the only motivation someone could have for flying a flag? If so, I accept your criticism. That is not what I meant. Long day, in a hurry, I typed it poorly.

Are you also (it almost seems like it) suggesting that the meaning of a symbol is entirely up to the user of that symbol? That's hogwash. The meaning of a symbol is determined by both the speaker and the listener. A point that OP's link made very well.

What I was trying to point out was simply that the historical argument made by some to defend the flag is inaccurate. The flag became a simple in the south as a response to desegregation. That was the motivation at the time.

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? Hmmmm?

I understand the part about meaning being determined by both the speaker and the listener . . . that's true generally of all forms of communications. So what?

It's incumbent upon both the speaker (or wearer) and listener (better described as an "observer" perhaps) to use all information available to understand and adjust appropriately to the entirety of the communication rather than fixating on one presupposed motivation ascribed simply to the use of one symbol. Context plus intent are far more meaningful than the presumptions folks are bringing to this discussion about symbols alone . . . .
 
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? Hmmmm?

I understand the part about meaning being determined by both the speaker and the listener . . . that's true generally of all forms of communications. So what?

It's incumbent upon both the speaker (or wearer) and listener (better described as an "observer" perhaps) to use all information available to understand and adjust appropriately to the entirety of the communication rather than fixating on one presupposed motivation ascribed simply to the use of one symbol. Context plus intent are far more meaningful than the presumptions folks are bringing to this discussion about symbols alone . . . .
The Battle Flag has been in continuous use since the end of the Civil War, including as part of the Mississippi flag for over 100 years. However, it did not really become a symbol of opposition to segregation, and a general symbol of defiance by southerners, until 1948. That was the year that supporters of the Dixiecrats began using the Battle Flag as their symbol (but not officially, as some have claimed). http://www.confederatepastpresent.o...ntion&catid=36:the-civil-rights-era&Itemid=47

But one could argue that the reason it was not used in the same way as it was from the outset of the Civil Rights movement is because the South really had no need for a rallying cry. They were able to continue on mistreating African-Americans for 75+ years after the Civil War ended. Some have also made very cogent arguments that the use of the Confederate flag and the Battle Flag for political statements, commercially, etc. prior to the 1940s was greatly frowned upon in the South because they were seen as sacred emblems of the Confederacy and the millions who died during the Civil War. See: The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem, by John M. Coski.

I generally agree with what you said about the meaning of the Battle Flag today. Just wanted to correct some factual items.

It's important to note that we're talking about a very limited situation here (or should be), which is the flying of the battle flag as a symbol by the state over public property. That particular use of the flag - which is the one really being debated in the modern world - was a response to desegregation. As such, the context and intent makes it pretty damn justified that a large swatch of the American public now sees the flag of a symbol of racial hatred.

Any individual, specific use of a symbol has to be studied in its own context, of course. The context of this specific use seems clearly offensive, for obvious reasons.

For most of history, the swastika did not carry negative connotations. The Nazis ruined that for everyone, just as they ruined the name Adolf and Charlie Chaplin mustaches. Whatever different meanings might be ascribed the battle flag in different contexts, it's been forever tainted by its use by segregationists as a symbol of opposition to desegregation. That can't be ignored. But most importantly, the particular usage we're discussing here is the usage from which that taint directly arises. This isn't like someone using a swastika, and claiming it is part of a Hindu ritual. This is like the government of Bavaria flying the swastika and claiming it is only done to remember and honor history. It flies in the face of all common sense to suggest what South Carolina is doing is appropriate.
 
It's important to note that we're talking about a very limited situation here (or should be), which is the flying of the battle flag as a symbol by the state over public property. That particular use of the flag - which is the one really being debated in the modern world - was a response to desegregation. As such, the context and intent makes it pretty damn justified that a large swatch of the American public now sees the flag of a symbol of racial hatred.

Any individual, specific use of a symbol has to be studied in its own context, of course. The context of this specific use seems clearly offensive, for obvious reasons.

For most of history, the swastika did not carry negative connotations. The Nazis ruined that for everyone, just as they ruined the name Adolf and Charlie Chaplin mustaches. Whatever different meanings might be ascribed the battle flag in different contexts, it's been forever tainted by its use by segregationists as a symbol of opposition to desegregation. That can't be ignored. But most importantly, the particular usage we're discussing here is the usage from which that taint directly arises. This isn't like someone using a swastika, and claiming it is part of a Hindu ritual. This is like the government of Bavaria flying the swastika and claiming it is only done to remember and honor history. It flies in the face of all common sense to suggest what South Carolina is doing is appropriate.
Did you even read my post? I offered some mild corrections to Your post and you reply saying that's not what we're talking about? Then what was the point of your previous post?

And what about the Mississippi state flag? Isn't that even worse than SC flying the Battle Flag? Or does that not fit your somewhat incorrect history lesson in your earlier post?
 
Did you even read my post? I offered some mild corrections to Your post and you reply saying that's not what we're talking about? Then what was the point of your previous post?

And what about the Mississippi state flag? Isn't that even worse than SC flying the Battle Flag? Or does that not fit your somewhat incorrect history lesson in your earlier post?
Whoa, Noodle. I was just quoting both you and Sope, because I was adding something to both our conversations. I wasn't denying anything you said. Just pointing out that "What does the battle flag mean?" is a different question than "What does it mean that the battle flag is flown by the SC legislature on state grounds in front of a war memorial?"
 
Well, I have never ascribed to you, Rock, expertise regarding what does and doesn't constitute good manners. ;)

As for your last comment about when white southerners will "get over it", believe me, the vast majority of the southern US is way ahead of much of the northern and midwestern US when it comes to diverse groups getting along day-to-day. I've had several recent casual conversations with young black men and women (started with a "Where you from?" icebreaker; most everybody in Atlanta is from somewhere else) in which my counterparts volunteered that they came south because folks up north were entirely unwelcoming; the last was a kid (from Louisville originally) who recently graduated from UToledo and turned down a full ride MBA scholly there to attend Emory here in the ATL - without any scholarship money - because Toledo wasn't a particularly good environment for young black guys. (His cousin is Edward Baker from IU football history . . . .)

Part of the reason the south is moving on with "getting over it" is that we generally recognize the trap of dealing in symbolic speech with too much seriousness. Because we don't focus primarily on symbols as the basis for our being able to get along, we can generally deal with each other on a personal, rather than a symbolic/group identity, basis at work, at schools, in neighborhoods (which I'd bet are far, far less segregated than where you live), and in a growing number of instances, in churches. We can let one guy wear a Malcolm X shirt and the next guy to wear his Redneck farm implements hat and rebel flag T-shirt and actually get along pretty well, because the focus is on each other instead of the effing symbols. That isn't to say things don't blow up . . . but doing an internal eye roll while putting on a smile is certainly a part of the ethos here for everybody, and a good part of the reason why the ATL can work well. It's just good grease for potentially difficult social interactions . . . and surprisingly enough it can facilitate real development of real relationships over time too.

(BTW, the hyper-emphasis on symbols and symbolic speech is one of the main characteristics you share with Iron that places y'all in close company with each other . . . . The other is insistence on having it your way to the exclusion of any compromise - or even well-mannered - results. Sometimes you just have to make room for the imperfect . . . .)

I mostly agree.

I am amazed that the focus of the aftermath of this terrible mass murder is a flag? As far as I am concerned the flag is a huge MEH! I would think smart and enlightened people could think of something more important to deal with like how and why the gun with high capacity magazines got into Roof's hands. But politics is dumb and it is dumb because we are collectively dumb. Symbols are easy stuff, so that is where our focus goes. While I'm at it, I'm fed up with all the symbols and triggers that seem to drive the public discussion. That's part of being dumb and stupid. The civil war is over. Flags are history. Grant and Camberlain got it right at Appomattox courthouse. Lincoln got it right with his post war unification plans. Now the northerners still call the south the enemy and the flag is an enemy flag like the Nazi flag. That's a deep thought process there! Are we now going to tell Texans that the 6 flags are offensive? It's all history.

BTW, my experience with the South is limited, but my limited experience tells me that the south is much more together than many parts of the north and the west coast

Apprapos of not much. I was eating in a Denny's at the edge of the Navajo reservation a few months ago. They had redskin potatoes on the menu. The Navajo kid who waited on us made some kind of a joke about that. So I asked him about the Redskins name. He shrugged and said nobody he knows cares. Yep. Those who care about it suffer with disabling triggeritis and symbolitis.
 
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Well you smart guys have butchered this thread. The truth is the flag is a symbol that has been usurped and needs to be retired. To the winners go the spoils.
 
Well you smart guys have butchered this thread. The truth is the flag is a symbol that has been usurped and needs to be retired. To the winners go the spoils.

It's what we do. :)

And yes, the flag should go. Not only in SC but in other states as well, including the MS state flag.
 
The flag never goes away

It's even in bronze in some national battlefield monuments. If any state wants to destroy it or change it, it makes no difference to me. Except, I think it's sad that we focus on symbols as if they are an important indicator of policy. How long do you think the atheists will wait until they want to change the name of the Mount of the Holy Cross?
 
It's what we do. :)

And yes, the flag should go. Not only in SC but in other states as well, including the MS state flag.
I feel sorry for the Sons of the Confederacy and their position but the truth is it is a symbol of racism.
 
As for your last comment about when white southerners will "get over it", believe me, the vast majority of the southern US is way ahead of much of the northern and midwestern US when it comes to diverse groups getting along day-to-day.
I don't mean to shoot at you, Sope, because I don't include you in the problem, but this trope that Southern whites best know how to get along with Southern blacks has existed longer than the Confederate flag and has never been shared by the ostensibly beneficent subjects of white Southern affection. It is part of the white Southern delusion that the original Confederate states were something other than ground central for white supremacy.
 
The
You don't get anything done that way though.
Civil War ended 150 years ago. Yet still white Southerners persist in the absurd myth of the Lost Cause of the Confederacy. How many centuries do you imagine it will require white Southerners to overcome their butthurt from the well-deserved loss of the Civil War if we keep humoring them?
 
(BTW, the hyper-emphasis on symbols and symbolic speech is one of the main characteristics you share with Iron that places y'all in close company with each other . . . . The other is insistence on having it your way to the exclusion of any compromise - or even well-mannered - results. Sometimes you just have to make room for the imperfect . . . .)
You just compared me to Greenirontree Ladoga Street Road Works (the worst insult you could have extended me, and f#ck you very much) to support your defense of sympathy for the former Confederacy -- or at least sympathy for the deluded white Southerners who can't allow themselves to acknowledge what it was. I'd say that wasn't polite, which is the virtue to which you've now selectively ascribed, but it is instead uncharacteristically stupid, which is what an honest friend would tell you.

Why should the truth compromise with what you would presumably agree is fiction? Why am I the bad guy for speaking the truth, and you are the centristy centrist good guy for postulating a "polite" but false form of historical truthiness that would be more palatable to historical know-nothings who'd rather glorify a treasonous and racist history? Until you can show me that I am wrong, I'm not interested in your claim that I am impolite.

We've been way too polite to delusional white Southerners who've surrounded themselves for 150 years with glorious memorials to a disgraced cause. It's way past time for the white racist South to "get over it."
 
Now that's a load, Goat. You're falling into the symbolic speech trap, where someone's use of a symbol can mean only one thing. Welcome to Iron's world . . .
Your stoic agnosticism about the obvious meaning of the Confederate flag is unflattering to you.
 
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