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Sorry, but Sanders is beating Bush/Walker/Trump in H2H

BTW, on a related note, to keep the number of new threads limited, and before I try to steal a few hours of sleep, the reason Bernie has a chance is because of boneheaded things like this from Hillary: "If it's undecided when I become President, I will answer your question." I understand the broader point she thought she was making, but it's a really, really, really stupid point. The idea that because she was recently Secretary of State, we should be willing to vote for her while she refuses to state opinions on important issues? Ridiculous.
 
BTW, on a related note, to keep the number of new threads limited, and before I try to steal a few hours of sleep, the reason Bernie has a chance is because of boneheaded things like this from Hillary: "If it's undecided when I become President, I will answer your question." I understand the broader point she thought she was making, but it's a really, really, really stupid point. The idea that because she was recently Secretary of State, we should be willing to vote for her while she refuses to state opinions on important issues? Ridiculous.

I don't think Hillary would necessarily be a bad president. What bothers me is that I think she feels like she really should be president. Like she just feels like it's her turn and she's entitled to it.
 
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Not by as widely as Hillary, but it's genuinely time to start seriously considering if Bernie could win the general. I don't think he's the fringe candidate we've been thinking of him as.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/07/cnn-poll-bernie-sanders-leads-all
I've always thought Bernie was a formidable candidate for a certain group of people. But I am surprised at the number ( kind of like Trump , only for very different reasons.). My big concern is widening his appeal to motivate the minority base to vote, were he to get the nomination.
 
"Motivate the minority base to vote"

The fact that politicians must think in these terms is the problem. Such is the legacy of divisive politics.

Of course you are correct. Of course this is a sad commentary.
 
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Love them or hate them, Bernie and Trump have balls. They say what they think and sometimes, in Trump's case, without any filter. They are prepared to back up their rhetoric and not apologize for it. They are gaining popularity in their respective parties because the public is tired of the rope a dope politics we have seen in the past. While I agree very little with either candidate, I would prefer them to Hillary. She is acting like she just needs to show up and she will become President.

It is way too early to predict a winner. In 2008, Hillary was a shoe-in to win the nomination. Trump's numbers will fall as more GOP candidates drop out and a leader emerges from the pack. I don't think it will be Bush and I am confident it won't be Trump. I still say this is a time that Evan Bayh could slide into the Democratic nomination and would win the general election. I could vote for him. He is a likeable person that makes his point without offending people that he disagrees with.
 
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Not by as widely as Hillary, but it's genuinely time to start seriously considering if Bernie could win the general. I don't think he's the fringe candidate we've been thinking of him as.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/07/cnn-poll-bernie-sanders-leads-all

Bernie has stones

And he is more right on immigration than wrong. He even took Ezra Klein by surprise.

Bernie Sanders
Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

Ezra Klein
Really?

Bernie Sanders
Of course. That's a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. ...

Ezra Klein
But it would make ...

Bernie Sanders
Excuse me ...

Ezra Klein
It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn't it?

Bernie Sanders
It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.
While I disagree with many of Berie's positions, I think he is on the right track with immigration. And to build on his views of minimum wages and free college education, we would get hugely greater bang for the buck with those efforts if the boarders were closed and enforced. Having an open legal and illegal immigration policy along with more and more benefits for the low income is incredibly stupid on any level. We are seeing the fruits of that silly policy double whammy in the high unemployment rates in minority youngsters today.

The thing about Bernie is that he doesn't appear to be "handled". Hillary on the other hand is so scripted and handled that she is turning herself into an animated mannequin like you see at Disney World.

If the Donald and the Bernie continue to poll well, maybe the campaign staffs of the other candidates will understand the scripted robotic candidates won't do well. Of course the first step will be to, like Trump has done, to not take any press crap about the inevitable gaffs that comes with no scripted events.
 
Bernie has stones

And he is more right on immigration than wrong. He even took Ezra Klein by surprise.

Bernie Sanders
Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

Ezra Klein
Really?

Bernie Sanders
Of course. That's a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. ...

Ezra Klein
But it would make ...

Bernie Sanders
Excuse me ...

Ezra Klein
It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn't it?

Bernie Sanders
It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.
While I disagree with many of Berie's positions, I think he is on the right track with immigration. And to build on his views of minimum wages and free college education, we would get hugely greater bang for the buck with those efforts if the boarders were closed and enforced. Having an open legal and illegal immigration policy along with more and more benefits for the low income is incredibly stupid on any level. We are seeing the fruits of that silly policy double whammy in the high unemployment rates in minority youngsters today.

The thing about Bernie is that he doesn't appear to be "handled". Hillary on the other hand is so scripted and handled that she is turning herself into an animated mannequin like you see at Disney World.

If the Donald and the Bernie continue to poll well, maybe the campaign staffs of the other candidates will understand the scripted robotic candidates won't do well. Of course the first step will be to, like Trump has done, to not take any press crap about the inevitable gaffs that comes with no scripted events.
I agree with candidates throwing away the scripts. The problem is that I don't know anyone besides Christie and Paul that might be able to go off script and not look confused in a debate with Trump. Trump will be brutal in the debates. It may be more entertaining than the Bieber Comedy Roast.

I am sending my kid's tuition bill to the next politician that says they want to help the middle class. They might as well say they breathe air and poop. I expect everyone is going to say they are concerned about the poor and want to help the middle class. Instead of telling me that, tell me your plan to do it. They make empty statements and people just nod their heads like just saying something makes it come true.
 
Not by as widely as Hillary, but it's genuinely time to start seriously considering if Bernie could win the general. I don't think he's the fringe candidate we've been thinking of him as.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/07/cnn-poll-bernie-sanders-leads-all
If this is true, accurate, and holds up, and Ladoga's poll about several republicans beating Hillary is true, accurate and holds up, then Sanders' focus needs to be on convincing the mainstream Democrats that a vote for Hillary is a wasted vote. If he can make this stick, then he's got a shot. It will be interesting to see how hard he digs in on her at the debates? If he comes off too aggressive he could get "Lazio'd" by his own party. If he points out her poor and inconsistent record on everything and how she is a shill for money wherever that comes from, it could damage the party even if he wins.

The numbers for Sanders are similar to the numbers for Obama vs Clinton in 08. Unlike Barack, Sanders has a track record of voting consistently so his image isn't as malable as Obama's was at the time. For him it's simple, stay the course and walk the tight rope of convincing undecided Democrats that he is mainstream and can win the Presidency.
 
I agree with candidates throwing away the scripts. The problem is that I don't know anyone besides Christie and Paul that might be able to go off script and not look confused in a debate with Trump. Trump will be brutal in the debates. It may be more entertaining than the Bieber Comedy Roast.

I am sending my kid's tuition bill to the next politician that says they want to help the middle class. They might as well say they breathe air and poop. I expect everyone is going to say they are concerned about the poor and want to help the middle class. Instead of telling me that, tell me your plan to do it. They make empty statements and people just nod their heads like just saying something makes it come true.
Oh I think Trump is going to look like a royal idiot in the debates. He will bluster and lie and call the others names, but he has zero deep understanding of most of the issues.
 
Oh I think Trump is going to look like a royal idiot in the debates. He will bluster and lie and call the others names, but he has zero deep understanding of most of the issues.
I don't think Trump is a liar any more than the serious politicians. He believes the things he is saying to be true. He has a quick mind and is very good when challenged. He could win an argument, but I will be curious if he can be effective in a debate without looking like a jerk. He could be a problem for the GOP if he learns how to be a better politician.
 
I don't think Trump is a liar any more than the serious politicians. He believes the things he is saying to be true. He has a quick mind and is very good when challenged. He could win an argument, but I will be curious if he can be effective in a debate without looking like a jerk. He could be a problem for the GOP if he learns how to be a better politician.
Trump is probably the most honest of all these guys. He's brutally honest. His message resonates with a lot of Americans but his biggest problem is his ego and he's a loose canon and doesn't act Presidential. He's got way too many axes to grind. My hope is he can pull some of these other candidates out of their shell because most of them are afraid of their shadow. Trump is stating the obvious about illegal immigration and that is we cannot have it. He's also an outsider calling out the establishment. But he also can't stop being Donald Trump and he's probably not electable. At some point he will go too far I believe.
 
That means a wacko on the left is beating a wacko on the right.:)

Which really goes to show the "the left" may not be as wacko as "the right" says it is. Maybe it show that whatever "the left" viewpoint is may actually be more centrist/populist.
 
Not by as widely as Hillary, but it's genuinely time to start seriously considering if Bernie could win the general. I don't think he's the fringe candidate we've been thinking of him as.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/07/cnn-poll-bernie-sanders-leads-all
I don't want Socialism, but I love Sanders. He doesn't come from wealth. He believes what he says. He isn't a phony. He is the most down to Earth politician there is. He is the only honest person running. I have seen nothing negative about him personally. He is a true grass roots candidate. I'm a registered independent, but I hope he thumps Hillary and I will vote for him in the general. Sanders winning is like your everyman winning.
 
I don't want Socialism, but I love Sanders. He doesn't come from wealth. He believes what he says. He isn't a phony. He is the most down to Earth politician there is. He is the only honest person running. I have seen nothing negative about him personally. He is a true grass roots candidate. I'm a registered independent, but I hope he thumps Hillary and I will vote for him in the general. Sanders winning is like your everyman winning.
I think it's fair to distinguish between democratic socialism and socialism, because what Sanders proposes isn't "socialism" the way most of us think of it. We usually association socialism with state ownership, but democratic socialism is a version that generally eschews state ownership. I'd say Sanders' economic ideals would more closely mirror the Scandinavian version of socialism than any other.

I certainly don't think he's a phony. He waffled a tiny little bit on guns, but not a whole lot. And he stood firm on some of the details, like his support for the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which is refreshing from someone trying to win the Democratic nomination.

I think he might be a real life Jed Bartlett.
 
I agree with candidates throwing away the scripts. The problem is that I don't know anyone besides Christie and Paul that might be able to go off script and not look confused in a debate with Trump. Trump will be brutal in the debates. It may be more entertaining than the Bieber Comedy Roast.

I am sending my kid's tuition bill to the next politician that says they want to help the middle class. They might as well say they breathe air and poop. I expect everyone is going to say they are concerned about the poor and want to help the middle class. Instead of telling me that, tell me your plan to do it. They make empty statements and people just nod their heads like just saying something makes it come true.
Bernie wants Medicare for all and free college tuition just like most of the European countries.He is the only politician talking about helping the middle class and how to do it specifically!
 
I think it's fair to distinguish between democratic socialism and socialism, because what Sanders proposes isn't "socialism" the way most of us think of it. We usually association socialism with state ownership, but democratic socialism is a version that generally eschews state ownership. I'd say Sanders' economic ideals would more closely mirror the Scandinavian version of socialism than any other.

I certainly don't think he's a phony. He waffled a tiny little bit on guns, but not a whole lot. And he stood firm on some of the details, like his support for the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which is refreshing from someone trying to win the Democratic nomination.

I think he might be a real life Jed Bartlett.

I don't yet know what he meant by "Socialist", but that Norweigan style socialism you suggested is a non-starter in my book, nor do I think he would achieve it. For one, I consider it Anti-American to some extent. While it raises equality among all I don't think Americans writ large want to have a cap on their ability to earn/achieve. The taxes are absolutely stifling. There is limited choice in imports available. Who wants to visit the supermarket and have 2 options both local? That's Norway. Do you want to pay a monthyl tax for owning a TV?

What works well among a small population in a country lacking diversity wouldn't be received with sich applause here. Plus, I would argue that Scandinavians are a rather content lot who don't rock the boat much.

A couple other points... 1. Their system is the result of massive oil money. Before that Norway was the poorest country in Europe. They are basically a Saudi Arabia who redistributes wealth. 2. Norweigans have become incredibly lazy and are not high achievers. All of the "good" jobs are being outsourced to immigrants moving to Norway. Because of this oil money Norwegians have become incredibly lazy and entitled.

In short, this Scandaniavn pill would never work in such a large and diverse country as ours imo.

Having said that, I am interested in the implementation of universal healthcare. Removing it from private companies domain. I would like to see executive compensation in public companies somehow tied to their lowest earning employees. I.e. they can only earn xtimes the janitor.

Also, I was extremely bothered by Sanders comments on immigration as from a moral position I object to his comments. I favor open borders as I believe all humans are inherently eaual and should have rights to travel and live where they choose. You should not be punished for where you are born or who your parents are. Nor is it any states job to choose winners and losers. All people are equal imo.
 
Bernie wants Medicare for all and free college tuition just like most of the European countries.He is the only politician talking about helping the middle class and how to do it specifically!

This free college tuition is a myth. More and more countries are turning away from it. There are very few countries that still offer that. In Norway this is funded by the "lucky" oil windfall. Also, please keep in mind that free tuition does not cover living expenses, which can be quite substantial given that Oslo is one of the most expensive cities on Earth if not the most expensive. Many Euro free tuition kids have the option to reside at home. Most Americans choose to stay in dorms or other housing. That adds to their costs.
 
Trump is probably the most honest of all these guys. He's brutally honest. His message resonates with a lot of Americans but his biggest problem is his ego and he's a loose canon and doesn't act Presidential. He's got way too many axes to grind. My hope is he can pull some of these other candidates out of their shell because most of them are afraid of their shadow. Trump is stating the obvious about illegal immigration and that is we cannot have it. He's also an outsider calling out the establishment. But he also can't stop being Donald Trump and he's probably not electable. At some point he will go too far I believe.
Trump wouldn't work well with Congress. He would go nuts when he didn't get his way. He might piss Putin off so much the missiles would start flying. But who knows, Putin and Trump could become best friends. He isn't Presidential. That would be good if it was in a likeable way. Trump's version would remind us of Jerry Springer's show.
Bernie wants Medicare for all and free college tuition just like most of the European countries.He is the only politician talking about helping the middle class and how to do it specifically!
Why stop there? Give everyone free houses and cars. Someone else can pay for it.
 
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Trump wouldn't work well with Congress. He would go nuts when he didn't get his way. He might piss Putin off so much the missiles would start flying. But who knows, Putin and Trump could become best friends. He isn't Presidential. That would be good if it was in a likeable way. Trump's version would remind us of Jerry Springer's show.

Why stop there? Give everyone free houses and cars. Someone else can pay for it.
 
Goat, how many times are you going to post the same question? Bernie has 0% chance of winning the nomination, much less the general. You have any clue how much sway the party establishment has in picking the nominee? In 2008 they were very split. No question who they are backing now.

Not sure if it's just hopeful thinking on your part or what.
 
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Goat, how many times are you going to post the same question? Bernie has 0% chance of winning the nomination, much less the general. You have any clue how much sway the party establishment has in picking the nominee? In 2008 they were very split. Nov question who they are backing now.

Not sure if it's just hopeful thinking on part or what.
Rumors are out there that Biden is thinking about running. Hillary has her issues on being trustworthy and likeable, Sanders is going to appeal to the most liberal voters and that is about all. Biden might see a window of opportunity.

I have already posted who I think should run on the Democrat side. Hillary is slipping in head to head polling with several GOP candidates. Sanders isn't going to win the nomination. The Dems will need a better candidate.
 
Rumors are out there that Biden is thinking about running. Hillary has her issues on being trustworthy and likeable, Sanders is going to appeal to the most liberal voters and that is about all. Biden might see a window of opportunity.

I have already posted who I think should run on the Democrat side. Hillary is slipping in head to head polling with several GOP candidates. Sanders isn't going to win the nomination. The Dems will need a better candidate.

The latest poll still has her up about 40 points nationally for the nomination. If it ever gets under 15 then maybe it's worth discussing.
 
Trump wouldn't work well with Congress. He would go nuts when he didn't get his way. He might piss Putin off so much the missiles would start flying. But who knows, Putin and Trump could become best friends. He isn't Presidential. That would be good if it was in a likeable way. Trump's version would remind us of Jerry Springer's show.

Trump shouldn't be taken seriously. That he's polling as well as he is demonstrates the disconnect between the Republican establishment and a significant part of the Republican base -- specifically on the issue of immigration, but also in how to handle the Shock and Outrage Industry.

I'd be shocked if Trump even comes close to the nomination, when the rubber meets the road. But, if he's somehow nominated, the GOP is in trouble. If he's somehow elected, the country is in trouble.

All the same goes for Sanders.

I still think it'll be Hillary vs. one of the following (in order): Walker, Rubio, Bush. If Hillary keeps faltering, the Dems will need a backup plan -- and I don't think #FeelTheBern will be it.
 
Trump wouldn't work well with Congress. He would go nuts when he didn't get his way. He might piss Putin off so much the missiles would start flying. But who knows, Putin and Trump could become best friends. He isn't Presidential. That would be good if it was in a likeable way. Trump's version would remind us of Jerry Springer's show.

Why stop there? Give everyone free houses and cars. Someone else can pay for it.

Wow. Just ignorant.
 
Free college education for everyone is ignorant. I was kidding about the house and car.

Yeah, giving people a better chance for success and providing for themselves is totally ignorant. I'm finished with college so I wouldn't benefit from this at all, but I still think it's a good idea. It doesn't mean we have to make it easy for people to complete college. You still have to do the work and pass your classes. If you don't, well, you had your chance and you blew it.
 
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