Justice...

[toastedbread]

If this is what Justice looks like in this county then I don't want any part of this. This is straight out of a Putin/Moscow playbook. Or a Salem pitchfork witch hunt. I don't see how anyone can look at this and believe it is anything other then politics. I have no issue with someone being charged, but this should have been done by an independent person. I thought in Ferguson as I do now that an outsider without any potential conflicts should be utilized. The perception of impropriety ways too heavily.

Is there even a toxicology report yet? As I understand it is likely Grey was under the influence of something. Surely that impacts this case?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If this is what Justice looks like in this county then I don't want any part of this. This is straight out of a Putin/Moscow playbook. Or a Salem pitchfork witch hunt. I don't see how anyone can look at this and believe it is anything other then politics. I have no issue with someone being charged, but this should have been done by an independent person. I thought in Ferguson as I do now that an outsider without any potential conflicts should be utilized. The perception of impropriety ways too heavily.

Is there even a toxicology report yet? As I understand it is likely Grey was under the influence of something. Surely that impacts this case?

Sounds like you have a rooting interest. That's always the wrong way to deal with these.

 

[toastedbread]

I have no rooting interest. I believe there is likely at a minimum criminal negligence. But, I believe that someone from the Obama AG office should have been in charge of this investigation as in Ferguson. This is too political for Mosby to be involved.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I have no rooting interest. I believe there is likely at a minimum criminal negligence. But, I believe that someone from the Obama AG office should have been in charge of this investigation as in Ferguson. This is too political for Mosby to be involved.

It's her job. I'm sympathetic to your healthy cynicism, but this is what she's paid to do.

ADDENDUM: Although, if the AG did take over, this board would be an absolute riot.

 

[toastedbread]

It might be her job... but the perception of conflict is simply too strong. She must recuse herself. If she did not charge these officers she and her husband would have been hanged. An outsider was necessary. This is not democracy. This is what you would see in Moscow or any former Soviet country. I don't support it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It might be her job... but the perception of conflict is simply too strong. She must recuse herself. If she did not charge these officers she and her husband would have been hanged. An outsider was necessary. This is not democracy. This is what you would see in Moscow or any former Soviet country. I don't support it.

Actually, I think in Moscow, the officers don't get charged and the riots result in a lot of deaths.

 

[toastedbread]

More like Putin tells the prosecutor to prosecute. The prosecutor is on Putin's payroll. The judges face a certain mysterious death if the right "verdict" isn't handed down. My main point was about a political conflict of interest, which is obviously clear here. I think even you will admit that her husband representing that district on the city council is a direct conflict.

 

[toastedbread]

I'm waiting for the protest to start because they weren't charged with 1st degree murder.

 

[Rockfish1]

the perception of conflict is simply too strong

What "perception of conflict"? This is her job. She's doing it. I have no idea whether the evidence warrants the charges, but your references to "a Putin/Moscow playbook" and "a Salem pitchfork witch hunt" are unhinged.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I think even you will admit that her husband representing that district on the city council is a direct conflict.

No, I won't. If her husband were one of the officers, that would be a conflict. This is just a woman doing her job.

 

[Rockfish1]

I'm waiting for the protest to start because they weren't charged with 1st degree murder.

I blame the angry negroes. Or maybe there's a reason why black residents of Baltimore are angry.

 

[NPT]

ADDENDUM: Although, if the AG did take over, this board would be an absolute riot.

Sure it would because putting him in charge is like putting the fox in charge of guarding the chicken coop. He looks at everything through the eyes of race rather than looking at a situation and trying to get justice.

 

[Rockfish1]

He looks at everything through the eyes of race rather than looking at a situation and trying to get justice.

Who are you talking about? What is the basis for your claim?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

If this is what Justice looks like in this county then I don't want any part of this. This is straight out of a Putin/Moscow playbook. Or a Salem pitchfork witch hunt. I don't see how anyone can look at this and believe it is anything other then politics. I have no issue with someone being charged, but this should have been done by an independent person. I thought in Ferguson as I do now that an outsider without any potential conflicts should be utilized. The perception of impropriety ways too heavily.

Is there even a toxicology report yet? As I understand it is likely Grey was under the influence of something. Surely that impacts this case?

She made a rookie mistake

Her reference to the demonstrators and to the slogan "no justice, no peace" was unprofessional and unfortunate. I don't think it would compel dismissal of the charges, but it will lend support for a change of venue and perhaps a court order that she recuse herself and her office. It also lends credibility to the whole idea that street protests/demonstrations/riots do or could influence the criminal justice system. The system is under strain anyway and her reference reduces the credibility of the whole system.

Tactically, the defense attorneys will use that remark to pound and pound on the idea that these charges are brought because the prosecution yielded to mob rule and they were not brought because of an objective review of the evidence. This will affect the preliminary probable cause hearing as well as the jury trial.

Given the public knowledge of the facts of this case, I don't have a lot of quarrel with the charging decision, except that I don't think second degree murder will stick. For that, the jury would have to believe that riding without a seatbelt presents an unreasonable risk of death. Most people have ridden without seat belts and I don't think they believe they were playing russian roulette. I think there should be one homicide charge and that should be some kind of manslaughter or vehicular assault. Only the driver should be charged. The sergeant and the lieutenant were also charged with the homicide; I think that will be a hard row to hoe.

This will be an interesting proceeding. The two not charged with homicide should definitely have separate trials from the others. Finally, I think the prosecutor actually got the charging decisions mostly correct except for what I mentioned above. But I think homocide convictions will be hard to come by. The other charges should be easier.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It's her job. I'm sympathetic to your healthy cynicism, but this is what she's paid to do.

ADDENDUM: Although, if the AG did take over, this board would be an absolute riot.

Do we know the skin color of the cops?

Isn't a threshold for federal prosecution that the victim was abused because of race?

 

[Rockfish1]

CO. Hoosier:

"I don't think second degree murder will stick. For that, the jury would have to believe that riding without a seatbelt presents an unreasonable risk of death."

I have no idea what the evidence will show, but it's not just a lack of seat belts -- the two-minute ride to the station took much longer, when they felt the need to check on him in transit they ignored that he was nonresponsive, and you've apparently never heard of "rough rides":

"You didn't ask me about the rough rides, or as I used to hear in the western district, 'the bounce.' It used to be reserved -- as I say, when there was a code to this thing, as flawed as it might have been by standards of the normative world -- by standards of Baltimore, there was a code to when you gave the guy the bounce or the rough ride. And it was this: He fought the police. Two things get your ass kicked faster than anything: one is making a cop run. If he catches you, you're 18 years old, you've got ****ing Nikes, he’s got cop shoes, he's wearing a utility belt, if you ****ing run and he catches you, you're gonna take some lumps. That’s always been part of the code. Rodney King could’ve quoted that much of it to you.

"But the other thing that gets you beat is if you fight. So the rough ride was reserved for the guys who fought the police, who basically made -- in the cop parlance -- assholes of themselves. And yet, you look at the sheet for poor Mr. Gray, and you look at the nature of the arrest and you look at the number of police who made the arrest, you look at the nature of what they were charging him with -- if anything, because again there’s a complete absence of probable cause -- and you look at the fact that the guy hasn’t got much propensity for serious violence according to his sheet, and you say, How did this guy get a rough ride? How did that happen? Is this really the arrest that you were supposed to make today? And then, if you were supposed to make it, was this the guy that needed an ass-kicking on the street, or beyond that, a hard ride to the lockup?"

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Do we know the skin color of the cops?

Isn't a threshold for federal prosecution that the victim was abused because of race?

I'm not familiar with the DOJ's guidelines on this. Couldn't they step in for any constitutional violation? There are more than just racial ones. Besides, even if the cops weren't white, it's still possible that race played a role, anyway. As someone - Larry Wilmore, I think? - said back during Ferguson, "It's not a white cop-black person problem, it's a cop-black person problem."

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

CO. Hoosier:

"I don't think second degree murder will stick. For that, the jury would have to believe that riding without a seatbelt presents an unreasonable risk of death."

I have no idea what the evidence will show, but it's not just a lack of seat belts -- the two-minute ride to the station took much longer, when they felt the need to check on him in transit they ignored that he was nonresponsive, and you've apparently never heard of "rough rides":

"You didn't ask me about the rough rides, or as I used to hear in the western district, 'the bounce.' It used to be reserved -- as I say, when there was a code to this thing, as flawed as it might have been by standards of the normative world -- by standards of Baltimore, there was a code to when you gave the guy the bounce or the rough ride. And it was this: He fought the police. Two things get your ass kicked faster than anything: one is making a cop run. If he catches you, you're 18 years old, you've got ****ing Nikes, he’s got cop shoes, he's wearing a utility belt, if you ****ing run and he catches you, you're gonna take some lumps. That’s always been part of the code. Rodney King could’ve quoted that much of it to you.

"But the other thing that gets you beat is if you fight. So the rough ride was reserved for the guys who fought the police, who basically made -- in the cop parlance -- assholes of themselves. And yet, you look at the sheet for poor Mr. Gray, and you look at the nature of the arrest and you look at the number of police who made the arrest, you look at the nature of what they were charging him with -- if anything, because again there’s a complete absence of probable cause -- and you look at the fact that the guy hasn’t got much propensity for serious violence according to his sheet, and you say, How did this guy get a rough ride? How did that happen? Is this really the arrest that you were supposed to make today? And then, if you were supposed to make it, was this the guy that needed an ass-kicking on the street, or beyond that, a hard ride to the lockup?"

The SA said also that the arrest itself was illegal. That's going to have a bearing on all the charges, I'd think.

 

[Rockfish1]

The SA said also that the arrest itself was illegal. That's going to have a bearing on all the charges, I'd think.

According to published reports, he was arrested and roughed up for excessive eye contact and running away from cops who were eyeing him, then showed up at the station in a coma from which he never awoke after an extremely long ride to a place that was two minutes away.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The SA said also that the arrest itself was illegal. That's going to have a bearing on all the charges, I'd think.[/QUOTE[/QUOTE

I don't think that affects the homicide charges

But it would for some of the others

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Doesn't the conflict of interest concept cut both ways? Like 5 members of her family are police.

There are times independent eyes are needed, but I like to think people can be fair. As much as possible we should let the people with the responsibility do their job.

I agree with CO, I would have preferred her not mentioning the chant.

 

[toastedbread]

Doesn't the conflict of interest concept cut both ways? Like 5 members of her family are police.

There are times independent eyes are needed, but I like to think people can be fair. As much as possible we should let the people with the responsibility do their job.

I agree with CO, I would have preferred her not mentioning the chant.

Big whoopie. Do you honestly believe that is a bigger conflict of interest than the fact that to charge these officers was the only option for her and her husband's future political careers? (if not personal safety in the Baltimore community) Meanwhile her husband was on TV demanding "justice"? He is also the representative of that district. Presumably they share the same bed at night?

I don't know how anyone can be oblivious to this concept unless they are actually not interested in justice. I have no doubt her mind was made up on this case from before an investigation was even started.

 

[NPT]

According to published reports, he was arrested and roughed up for excessive eye contact and running away from cops who were eyeing him, then showed up at the station in a coma from which he never awoke after an extremely long ride to a place that was two minutes away.

After some of the videos I've seen lately I don't blame him for running. Seems like there are a lot of cops with an ego problem or maybe we're just hearing about the ones that do. The US marshall that stomped on the cell phone should be charged with something and have to buy a new cell phone for the lady. She was not doing anything wrong. A lot of cops (maybe the word lot is excessive because I know several and I think they are all good ones) think they are a god and are above the law.

 

[toastedbread]

According to published reports, he was arrested and roughed up for excessive eye contact and running away from cops who were eyeing him, then showed up at the station in a coma from which he never awoke after an extremely long ride to a place that was two minutes away.

What are the results of the toxicology report? As I understood he was leaving a known drug house?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

According to published reports, he was arrested and roughed up for excessive eye contact and running away from cops who were eyeing him, then showed up at the station in a coma from which he never awoke after an extremely long ride to a place that was two minutes away.

I know seeing an officer and running looks bad, but it should be perfectly legal. The fact it seems SOP shows the problem.

Most cops are good, I believe that. But I will suggest what conservatives say here about teachers is true for police. It is expected that the good will protect the bad.

 

[davegolf]

It's her job. I'm sympathetic to your healthy cynicism, but this is what she's paid to do.

ADDENDUM: Although, if the AG did take over, this board would be an absolute riot.

Her job is to adhere to the rules of professional responsibility and ethics. She has crossed the line in several regards and needs to recuse herself ASAP!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Her job is to adhere to the rules of professional responsibility and ethics. She has crossed the line in several regards and needs to recuse herself ASAP!

Do you know what the rules of professional responsibility are? Then which ones did she break?

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Do we know the skin color of the cops?

Isn't a threshold for federal prosecution that the victim was abused because of race?

3 white
3 black

 

[NPT]

Most cops are good, I believe that. But I will suggest what conservatives say here about teachers is true for police. It is expected that the good will protect the bad.

Don't you think that is true in most professions that are out in the public a lot? I think doctors protect doctors, teachers protect other teachers, police protect other police,etc. I'm not sure about lawyers....I wouldn't think they would because they are in an adversarial relationship a lot of times but I could be wrong.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Do you know what the rules of professional responsibility are? Then which ones did she break?

C'mon goat. I cited these rules during Eric Holder's Ferguson grandstanding. Prosecutors must not inflame and community and taint the jury with out of court statements. Charges have been dismissed for egregious examples of this.

 

[Rockfish1]

What are the results of the toxicology report? As I understood he was leaving a known drug house?

Which would prove what? Good luck trying to establish probable cause for this arrest.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

C'mon goat. I cited these rules during Eric Holder's Ferguson grandstanding. Prosecutors must not inflame and community and taint the jury with out of court statements. Charges have been dismissed for egregious examples of this.

Yeah, and I thought you were full of it then, too. All I want someone to give me is an example of something specific Mosby has done or said that violates the RPC. The one example you cited above, I agree is an uncomfortable reference (one I certainly would not have made), but in the context of her speech isn't a breach of ethics. You can't just take four words out of a sentence and judge someone by them.

 

[Rockfish1]

I know seeing an officer and running looks bad, but it should be perfectly legal.

Perhaps he ran because he reasonably feared that if he was arrested he might end up dead.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Yeah, and I thought you were full of it then, too. All I want someone to give me is an example of something specific Mosby has done or said that violates the RPC. The one example you cited above, I agree is an uncomfortable reference (one I certainly would not have made), but in the context of her speech isn't a breach of ethics. You can't just take four words out of a sentence and judge someone by them.

By itself this comment may not mean much,

But she gave the defense arguments that she shouldn't have given them. That's at least unprofessional. If she stops it here, I don't think this is a biggie. But if she persists with making the point that these charges are a reason bring "peace" or that the charges are in and of themselves "justice" or words to that effect, I can see a judge dropping the charges for misconduct. That would be unethical. It's a matter of degree, but the principle is firmly established. Read about what happened with the Danziger bridge shootings after Katrina.

 

[Rockfish1]

You can't just take four words out of a sentence and judge someone by them.

He's done it before, and he'll do it again - and again and again and again. I'm reminded of when CO. was cowering in his basement over Obama's "Gestapo-like 'civilian national security force'".

 

[Rockfish1]

If she stops it here, I don't think this is a biggie.

Yet it's all you're talking about. Meanwhile, there's a dead guy.

 

[Noodle]

By itself this comment may not mean much,

But she gave the defense arguments that she shouldn't have given them. That's at least unprofessional. If she stops it here, I don't think this is a biggie. But if she persists with making the point that these charges are a reason bring "peace" or that the charges are in and of themselves "justice" or words to that effect, I can see a judge dropping the charges for misconduct. That would be unethical. It's a matter of degree, but the principle is firmly established. Read about what happened with the Danziger bridge shootings after Katrina.

If you can see a judget dropping the charges for that reason then you need new glasses. I agree that some of these charges will be hard to prove. But your reaction to all of this is over the top.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

If you can see a judget dropping the charges for that reason then you need new glasses. I agree that some of these charges will be hard to prove. But your reaction to all of this is over the top.

what's over the top?

I specifically said that the charges would not be dismissed because of what she said. I also said I didn't have much of a quarrel with her charging decisions. I did say her remarks were unprofessional, stand by that, and many prosecutors agree*. She, along with the mayor, at least have contributed to the change of venue arguments. If you can't see that as unprofessional then you don't know where the top is.

*The ethical obligations of prosecutors are pretty clear. They cannot contribute to the heat of highly visible cases with out of court statements. This is easy and clear stuff. Abuses have resulted in dismissals and new trials.

 

[Rockfish1]

what's over the top?

I specifically did said that the charges would not be dismissed because of what she said. I also said I didn't have much of a quarrel with her charging decisions. I did say her remarks were unprofessional, stand by that, and many prosecutors agree*. She, along with the mayor, at least have contributed to the change of venue arguments. If you can't see that as unprofessional then you don't know where the top is.

*The ethical obligations of prosecutors are pretty clear. They cannot contribute to the heat of highly visible cases with out of court statements. This is easy and clear stuff. Abuses have resulted in dismissals and new trials.

The great thing about our judicial system is that lamebrained complaints like yours can and will be fully litigated. Meanwhile, there's a dead guy.

 

[Noodle]

what's over the top?

I specifically did said that the charges would not be dismissed because of what she said. I also said I didn't have much of a quarrel with her charging decisions. I did say her remarks were unprofessional, stand by that, and many prosecutors agree*. She, along with the mayor, at least have contributed to the change of venue arguments. If you can't see that as unprofessional then you don't know where the top is.

*The ethical obligations of prosecutors are pretty clear. They cannot contribute to the heat of highly visible cases with out of court statements. This is easy and clear stuff. Abuses have resulted in dismissals and new trials.

You need new glasses so that you can read your own posts. You indeed said you can see the charges being dropped if she persists in her statevents etc. And to that I say bull. It ain't hoing b to happen in thsee cases. Meanwhile, you still don't get it.