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Growing up The Adventures of Robin Hood

davegolf

All-American
Sep 18, 2001
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was a must see on our TV. Learned as a young child that "stealing from the rich" and giving to the poor could make a television "Hero" and good watch TV. Should there be a point that violating the law is OK, if there is a greater good and "moral right" which supports ignoring the Constitution and the law. Does the end justify the means. This will be an important month for the future of Obama Care. IMO Supreme Court needs to enforce the law and not legislate from the bench. Leave the moral issues to Congress and the President - it is not in the Courts purview. If the Nation wants Obama Care I am OK with that but that is their decision through Congressional Action and not Supreme Court Decisions.
 
was a must see on our TV. Learned as a young child that "stealing from the rich" and giving to the poor could make a television "Hero" and good watch TV. Should there be a point that violating the law is OK, if there is a greater good and "moral right" which supports ignoring the Constitution and the law. Does the end justify the means. This will be an important month for the future of Obama Care. IMO Supreme Court needs to enforce the law and not legislate from the bench. Leave the moral issues to Congress and the President - it is not in the Courts purview. If the Nation wants Obama Care I am OK with that but that is their decision through Congressional Action and not Supreme Court Decisions.
The country never wanted Obamacare. It never had a vast majority or even a simple majority of support. No Republican voted for it, and many Democrats who did were thrown out of office. Obamacare is not sustainable and can't pay for itself. It is a lie that the Democrats tried to sell to the American people. These lies included, "your premiums will go down $2500 a yr, you can keep your doctor and your insurance etc."
 
I understand your points but my question was should the Courts get involved in promoting "moral" issues or only stay focused on enforcing the Constitution and laws of these United States.
 
I understand your points but my question was should the Courts get involved in promoting "moral" issues or only stay focused on enforcing the Constitution and laws of these United States.
Dave, ObamaCare is already law. The only role the courts need to play is deciding whether it's compatible with the Constitution. Upholding the law would not be legislation from the bench. The will of the people was that the law be enacted, insofar as the courts are concerned. So there is no way that the courts could subvert the "moral choice" of the people by upholding the law. They could, however, subvert the moral choice of the people by striking down the law on shaky grounds.

Long story short, I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.
 
I think there are no questions that portions of the law as challenged don't meet the Constitution tests and based on reading the hearing transcripts most Judges felt the same way. The question is should we ignore the law in order to continue Obamacare as a moral requirement.
 
I think there are no questions that portions of the law as challenged don't meet the Constitution tests and based on reading the hearing transcripts most Judges felt the same way. The question is should we ignore the law in order to continue Obamacare as a moral requirement.
There's plenty of question, Dave. But that's not the point. The point is, legally speaking, when Congress passes a law and the President signs it, the people have spoken. If the law is unconstitutional, the courts must strike it down, but you absolutely cannot characterize the upholding of a law as some kind of judicial infringement of the people's discretion.
 
If a Judge upholds a law that is unconstitutional or against the law ab initio there is an infringement. It happens all the time and that is why we have appeal courts. If Judges always made the right decisions there would never be overturned appeals.
 
If a Judge upholds a law that is unconstitutional or against the law ab initio there is an infringement. It happens all the time and that is why we have appeal courts. If Judges always made the right decisions there would never be overturned appeals.
Sorry, Dave, I don't think you get my point. You started this thread by talking about courts usurping the rights of the people to make moral decisions. Not about them getting cases wrong, but about them stepping in and making, essentially, policy decisions for the people. Upholding an unconstitutional law is absolutely a legally wrong thing to do, but it is not the usurpation of the right of the people to make decisions. The law, duly passed by Congress and signed by the President, is the moral and policy decision of the people, legally speaking. If the courts uphold that law, they aren't usurping anything. They could very well be incorrectly rubber-stamping something, yes, but they aren't usurping anything. I'm trying to get you to understand the importance of language here. You're using "judicial legislation" as a synonym for "decision I think is legally wrong," and that's not right. They are two entirely different things.
 
Time and experience will teach those that want to listen that decisions are not always made based on the law. I have had two Judges from different counties interpret the same law differently. The law is written but Judicial decision making takes into consideration human interpretation which takes into count one's life experiences, beliefs and preferences. Your statement that I started out by talking about courts usurping the rights of the people to make moral decisions is totally incorrect. Read what Obama has had to say the last few days as he is dwelling on the "moral" aspect of the law and that the Court needs to look at the greater good irrespective of technical legality. A minimum of three Judges will probably agree with Obama and it will be interesting to see how the rest decide. This case has gone far beyond getting the case wrong it is far more politically complicated and the Justices are well aware of those issues!
 
Read what Obama has had to say the last few days as he is dwelling on the "moral" aspect of the law and that the Court needs to look at the greater good irrespective of technical legality.
The problem here, dave, is that on the subject of the law's "technical legality" you have only an immense ignorance. Before you launch into vast incoherent critiques of judicial philosophy, I suggest that you inform yourself about the basic legal arguments. And take VanPastorMan with you to whatever remedial classes may be necessary to accomplish that. Report back when you have something useful to say.
 
Thanks for your intellectual snide angry response not worthy of a retort!
You don't say, but you seem to be talking about the absurd Burwell case. (More on the absurdity of the Burwell challenge here and here.) The Burwell challengers claim that the Affordable Care Act can only be read in a way that no one actually read it, based on selective reference to four words out of a 2,000-page act. Not only do they misread the text, they've established a fake history in which Congress intended to destroy the health insurance markets in states that didn't establish exchanges -- despite the complete absence of anyone saying so, or even noticing it.

Everyone read the Act to provide subsidies on the federal exchange. Republicans and Democrats. Supporters and opponents.The CBO. The wonks, the press, and the pundits. Everyone. The challengers now say that everyone was wrong, and that the law can only be read in the bizarre way they've chosen to read it. Based on this absurd misreading of the law and the phony history they've concocted, they would deprive millions of people of health insurance. You assume this is right, and the Court will misbehave unless it holds that the Moops invaded Spain and guts Obamacare. (See the links regarding the Seinfeldian reference.)

This is ridiculous partisan nonsense. It would require the Court to overturn Chevron and require the individual justices to repudiate everything they've said about statutory interpretation. It is also the premise on which your argument depends.
 
My intended question n the original post is the legality of the law no longer relevant.

Headlines "Obama to Supreme Court: You wouldn’t dare kill Obamacare ...... Obama’s appeal to the justices, devotees of judicial modesty all: Do they really wish to cause the massive societal upheaval that would come from killing a law that is now a routine part of American life?"

Per Obama last nite
“Five years in, what we are talking about is no longer just a law. It’s no longer just a theory. It isn’t even just about the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare,” he said. “This is now part of the fabric of how we care for one another. This is health care in America.”
 
My intended question n the original post is the legality of the law no longer relevant.
For all the reasons I set forth above, this is a question best asked of the partisans who've concocted the absurd Burwell challenge -- and the conservative justices who will doubtless conclude that the Moops really did invade Spain. And it's entirely appropriate to point out that those advancing this absurd challenge would happily deprive millions of health insurance. Why isn't that relevant?
 
Are you not a partisan in support of Obama Care! Think it is a fair question before you insult the opposition!
 
Time and experience will teach those that want to listen that decisions are not always made based on the law. I have had two Judges from different counties interpret the same law differently. The law is written but Judicial decision making takes into consideration human interpretation which takes into count one's life experiences, beliefs and preferences. Your statement that I started out by talking about courts usurping the rights of the people to make moral decisions is totally incorrect. Read what Obama has had to say the last few days as he is dwelling on the "moral" aspect of the law and that the Court needs to look at the greater good irrespective of technical legality. A minimum of three Judges will probably agree with Obama and it will be interesting to see how the rest decide. This case has gone far beyond getting the case wrong it is far more politically complicated and the Justices are well aware of those issues!
Then you need to start proof reading your own posts, because that is exactly what your first post claimed. You need to learn to be clearer with what you say.
 
My English was very clear. "Should there be a point that violating the law is OK, if there is a greater good and "moral right" which supports ignoring the Constitution and the law. Does the end justify the means." Obama seems to think there is.
 
My English was very clear. "Should there be a point that violating the law is OK, if there is a greater good and "moral right" which supports ignoring the Constitution and the law. Does the end justify the means." Obama seems to think there is.
Dave, I'm throwing in the towel. Go READ your first post. It didn't say anything like you are now claiming. I can't be involved in a discussion with you if you are simply going to randomly change your argument to something wildly different.
 
The quote was from my first post you seem to see and read into things what you want. You never answered the first question but went off the deep end into other territory.
 
The quote was from my first post you seem to see and read into things what you want. You never answered the first question but went off the deep end into other territory.
No, Dave, I simply responded to what you actually wrote:
"Leave the moral issues to Congress and the President - it is not in the Courts purview. If the Nation wants Obama Care I am OK with that but that is their decision through Congressional Action and not Supreme Court Decisions."

I was merely pointing out that Congress and the President have already decided this. They passed and signed the ACA. Your argument that the courts are overstepping their bounds in this way is inherently faulty. Courts can make mistakes, yes, but to suggest that a court is somehow infringing on the purview of Congress and the President by saying that something Congress and the President did is okay is silliness in the extreme.
 
They have decided this but many believe the Court is going to rule against the law. Therefore my question "Should there be a point that violating the law is OK, if there is a greater good and "moral right" which supports ignoring the Constitution and the law. Does the end justify the means."
 
was a must see on our TV. Learned as a young child that "stealing from the rich" and giving to the poor could make a television "Hero" and good watch TV. Should there be a point that violating the law is OK, if there is a greater good and "moral right" which supports ignoring the Constitution and the law. Does the end justify the means. This will be an important month for the future of Obama Care. IMO Supreme Court needs to enforce the law and not legislate from the bench. Leave the moral issues to Congress and the President - it is not in the Courts purview. If the Nation wants Obama Care I am OK with that but that is their decision through Congressional Action and not Supreme Court Decisions.

What parts of the constitution do you believe the ACA violates? Even the Chief Justice, a test tube engineered republican, says the ACA is constitutional. What does Fox News know about the constitution that John Roberts doesn't? Just tell me which part specifically you believe to be unconstitutional. Don't just say "the whole thing". There has to be some specific parts you believe violate the constitution. What are those parts?
 
The question is extremely simple. Should residents of a state not establishing an exchange but otherwise qualified for subsidies financially be entitled to subsidies. Should all Americans who qualify be granted a subsidy. Are they being punished for their state not establishing an exchange? There is a question of equality and the federal government punishing non-exchange participants. .
 
The question is extremely simple. Should residents of a state not establishing an exchange but otherwise qualified for subsidies financially be entitled to subsidies. Should all Americans who qualify be granted a subsidy. Are they being punished for their state not establishing an exchange? There is a question of equality and the federal government punishing non-exchange participants. .

You were talking about enforcing the constitution, which implies that something about the law is unconstitutional. And there is no way the Supreme Court should take 4 words and completely gut a law who's obvious intention is to have exchanges whether or not they're established by the state. I would think they would have to look at the overall intent of the 2000 page law and not just decide that 4 words will undo it. Even if they do decide to gut the subsidies, there are ways around it. A good old fashioned "lawyer's dodge" can be pulled off here. But you guys can continue to waste time and money fighting this law. And as far as "punishment " for not having insurance, well, that's a tax. Article 1, section 8, clause 1... Congress has the power to tax. You don't have to like why they are taxing you. It's their power and it's very broad.
 
The question is extremely simple. Should residents of a state not establishing an exchange but otherwise qualified for subsidies financially be entitled to subsidies. Should all Americans who qualify be granted a subsidy. Are they being punished for their state not establishing an exchange? There is a question of equality and the federal government punishing non-exchange participants. .
The Affordable Care Act doesn't punish the residents of states that don't establish their own exchanges. The Burwell challengers' contrary claim is preposterous.

"Exchange" is a defined term. There is only one kind of "exchange" under the law, regardless of how it is established. If a state fails to establish an "exchange", the law says, "the Secretary . . . shall establish and operate such exchange." There are not "state exchanges" and "federal exchanges". There are only "exchanges", and subsidies are available in all of them -- as absolutely everyone understood when the law was enacted. (For more on the absurdity of the challengers' statutory misconstruction, see here.)

The question here isn't whether the case should be decided as a matter of law or a matter of policy. It's whether the Court should disregard fundamental canons of statutory interpretation to concoct an absurd misconstruction of the law that is contrary to what literally everyone understood the law to mean -- and in the process to construct an alternative history of the law's passage. It is the Burwell challengers -- and the conservative justices who will undoubtedly agree with them -- who are acting with disregard for the law. You should address your questions to them, and not to the law's supporters.
 
Great argument we will shall know shortly. There are a lot more brilliant legal minds than I that however disagree with you and if the decision is so obvious why are we in front of the Supreme with the case. It cannot by definition be "contrary to what literally everyone understood the law to mean" since when passed very few had read the law and it was passed based on fraudulent advertising of what was actually in the law.
 
Great argument we will shall know shortly. There are a lot more brilliant legal minds than I that however disagree with you and if the decision is so obvious why are we in front of the Supreme with the case. It cannot by definition be "contrary to what literally everyone understood the law to mean" since when passed very few had read the law and it was passed based on fraudulent advertising of what was actually in the law.

So, kinda like the Iraq war. You know, based on fraud...only the ACA hasn't killed 4,491 U.S. soldiers. And if someone voting on the ACA didn't read it, well, they should have.
 
Actual Facts not partisan created - all reasonable legal minds should be able agree that the language is subject to interpretation and the Supreme Court will shortly rule. The Affordable Care Act passed (without out reading by many) through the Senate which added four words. . The law says that the federal government has the power to enact premium-lowering subsidies through those insurance exchanges established by the State.” Thirty-six states have declined to set up exchanges, the implication is that those who purchase insurance from the federal HealthCare.gov website are, under the text of the law, ineligible for the tax credits. Premiums would higher in those states. Some believe the language was added to punish any states which did not form exchanges. Here is the exact language.

...
an-exchange-established-by-the-state.jpg


Section 1311 of the Affordable Care Act grants “an Exchange established by the state” authority (to issue subsidies), but doesn’t mention an Exchange established by the federal government.
 
Actual Facts not partisan created - all reasonable legal minds should be able agree that the language is subject to interpretation and the Supreme Court will shortly rule. The Affordable Care Act passed (without out reading by many) through the Senate which added four words. . The law says that the federal government has the power to enact premium-lowering subsidies through those insurance exchanges established by the State.” Thirty-six states have declined to set up exchanges, the implication is that those who purchase insurance from the federal HealthCare.gov website are, under the text of the law, ineligible for the tax credits. Premiums would higher in those states. Some believe the language was added to punish any states which did not form exchanges. Here is the exact language.

...
an-exchange-established-by-the-state.jpg


Section 1311 of the Affordable Care Act grants “an Exchange established by the state” authority (to issue subsidies), but doesn’t mention an Exchange established by the federal government.

Again, you're focusing on 4 words and not the overall intent of the law. Anyways, the federal government can just draw up a contract with the state that lets the state take over the administration of the exchange and say "congratulations, you've just established an exchange". Then the state will turn right back around and give it back to the federal government. There will be a lot of pissing and moaning from the republicans as usual, but it's a plausible scenario.
 
There are a lot solutions and just don't understand why this was not addressed a long time ago. As "focusing" is concerned the language was not originally there and I am not sure who added and/or why. It may have been intentional. Intent normally does not override specific language although that would be an out by the Court.
 
There are a lot solutions and just don't understand why this was not addressed a long time ago. As "focusing" is concerned the language was not originally there and I am not sure who added and/or why. It may have been intentional. Intent normally does not override specific language although that would be an out by the Court.
I think all this focus on "intent" is misplaced. Intent is only half the battle. If Congress made their intent perfectly clear, game over.

But, if it's not perfectly clear, and I don't have numbers to back this up, but my gut tells me that the very fact the case even made it to SCOTUS is a good indicator that it's not clear, then the IRS interpretation only needs to be permissible. If it is, the courts have to defer to the IRS. Courts do not have the authority to substitute their own better interpretation for a permissible one.

It will depend on the individual justices. Thomas, Alito and Scalia will clearly rule in favor of Plaintiffs. The four liberals will rule for the government. I suspect both Roberts and Kennedy will rule for the government, as well. It's possible that the liberals are going to claim that Congressional intent was clear (but in favor of the government's interpretation, of course), but I can't imagine Roberts and Kennedy doing that. I think it's going to come down to step two - is the IRS' reading of the law permissible...

Of course, I'm making this prediction because I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for Scalia's ability to set aside politics. Based on his own large body of opinions regarding administrative law and the Chevron test, he should rule for the government. But he won't. If I were the Justice writing the opinion in this case, I would make sure that every reference I made to Chevron was a direct quote of a former Scalia opinion, just to highlight his hypocrisy for posterity's sake.
 
Actual Facts not partisan created - all reasonable legal minds should be able agree that the language is subject to interpretation and the Supreme Court will shortly rule. The Affordable Care Act passed (without out reading by many) through the Senate which added four words. . The law says that the federal government has the power to enact premium-lowering subsidies through those insurance exchanges established by the State.” Thirty-six states have declined to set up exchanges, the implication is that those who purchase insurance from the federal HealthCare.gov website are, under the text of the law, ineligible for the tax credits. Premiums would higher in those states. Some believe the language was added to punish any states which did not form exchanges. Here is the exact language.

...
an-exchange-established-by-the-state.jpg


Section 1311 of the Affordable Care Act grants “an Exchange established by the state” authority (to issue subsidies), but doesn’t mention an Exchange established by the federal government.
If "the language is subject to interpretation" -- and I think it is -- then under Chevron the government wins hands down. The challengers must establish that the law can only be read in the bizarre way they now read it -- a way that literally no one read it at the time. To do this they've concocted a fake history in which Congress intended to destroy the insurance markets in states that didn't establish exchanges. There is no evidence of any such intention, which is remarkable if you think about it: The challengers are claiming that Congress secretly created the health care equivalent of a doomsday machine, as though it was taking its cues from the Soviets in "Dr. Strangelove". (The Obamacare doomsday machine was apparently so secret that even the people who passed the Affordable Care Act didn't know about it.) This is ridiculous.

Again, the Moops didn't invade Spain.
 
I ask the same question if the interpretation is bizarre as you claim how did the case ever get to the Supreme Court? It is well documented that many in Congress read the "cliff notes" and did not take the time to read the voluminous document in detail. I helped review several statutes in the 70's and later in the early 80's for the Budget Committee. It was clear to me that some Legislators did not want to be bothered by reading the law (some maybe would not understand even if they did) but only wanted the financial analysis. .
 
I ask the same question if the interpretation is bizarre as you claim how did the case ever get to the Supreme Court? It is well documented that many in Congress read the "cliff notes" and did not take the time to read the voluminous document in detail. I helped review several statutes in the 70's and later in the early 80's for the Budget Committee. It was clear to me that some Legislators did not want to be bothered by reading the law (some maybe would not understand even if they did) but only wanted the financial analysis. .
How is that even relevant? What possible method of statutory construction would allow the justices to give weight to which members of Congress did or didn't read more carefully?
 
How is that even relevant? What possible method of statutory construction would allow the justices to give weight to which members of Congress did or didn't read more carefully?
It is not relevant to the court decision IMO opinion if Congress would have done their job and take time to review, process and discuss the language in detail we would not be in this position.
 
It is not relevant to the court decision IMO opinion if Congress would have done their job and take time to review, process and discuss the language in detail we would not be in this position.
I have no doubt we'd still be in this position. If the bill's sponsors had noticed the sloppy drafting and fixed it, then the lawyers who are challenging the law - and who are doing so because they are politically opposed to it - would have come up with some other, even more inane argument.
 
Supreme Court
I ask the same question if the interpretation is bizarre as you claim how did the case ever get to the Supreme Court?
As a lawyer, you shouldn't need to ask me such silly questions. You can employ the same law degree I earned to think this through for yourself.

In answer to your question, though, two Republican appointees on a three judge panel in the D.C. Circuit agreed with the challengers' absurd theory, temporarily creating a circuit split with the 4th Circuit, which had rejected the Moops argument. Although the DC Circuit promptly decided to hear that case en banc, thereby vacating the pro-Moops decision, four Supreme Court justices granted certiorari in the 4th Circuit case, preempting review at the circuit level. The Supremes surely can do this, but it's extremely unusual, and most Court-watchers concluded that the decision to grant cert. reflected conservative justices' eagerness to kill a law they obviously despise.

It's a challenge by conservative activists implacably opposed to Obamacare that was rejected at the district court level and was about to be rejected by the second of two circuit courts when the Supreme Court's conservatives reached out to take it. That's how it got to the Supreme Court.
 
For anyone who actually cares about the drafting history of Obamacare, this from Robert Pear is a pretty good account:

They are only four words in a 900-page law: “established by the state.”

But it is in the ambiguity of those four words in the Affordable Care Act that opponents found a path to challenge the law, all the way to the Supreme Court.

How those words became the most contentious part of President Obama’s signature domestic accomplishment has been a mystery. Who wrote them, and why? Were they really intended, as the plaintiffs in King v. Burwell claim, to make the tax subsidies in the law available only in states that established their own health insurance marketplaces, and not in the three dozen states with federal exchanges?

“I don’t ever recall any distinction between federal and state exchanges in terms of the availability of subsidies,” said Olympia J. Snowe, a former Republican senator from Maine who helped write the Finance Committee version of the bill.

“It was never part of our conversations at any point,” said Ms. Snowe, who voted against the final version of the Senate bill. “Why would we have wanted to deny people subsidies? It was not their fault if their state did not set up an exchange.” The four words, she said, were perhaps “inadvertent language,” adding, “I don’t know how else to explain it.”

Former Senator Jeff Bingaman, Democrat of New Mexico, said there may have been “some sloppiness in the drafting” of the bill. Mr. Bingaman, who was a member of both committees that developed the measure, said he was surprised that the lawsuit had reached the Supreme Court because the words in dispute appeared to be a “drafting error.”

“As far as I know, it escaped everyone’s attention, or it would have been deleted, because it clearly contradicted the main purpose of the legislation,” Mr. Bingaman said. He added, “In all the discussion in the committees and on the floor, I didn’t ever hear anybody suggest that this kind of distinction between federal and state exchanges was in the bill.”
Read the whole thing if you want more detail, but the bottom line, which should surprise no one, is that legislating, like every other human activity, routinely produces imperfections, and this is particularly so when the process itself is undermined by the legislation's opponents. The problem isn't that legislators didn't read the bill.* The problem is that it was a messy process, and that mess affected the drafting.
___________________________________________________________
*The "didn't read the bill" critique reflects either ignorance of the legislative process or dishonesty about the legislative process, depending on the sophistication of the person making the argument. Except for extremely simple bills, legislators seldom read the bill's actual text. That's because reading the text of a bill is a difficult way to understand what a bill does.

Legislation -- the stuff that actually gets voted on -- isn't a readable helpful narrative. Instead it's much more like a set of excruciating instruction to a printing company that's going to produce a revised draft of a book. It's full of strikeouts (reflecting language to be deleted) and bolding (reflecting language to be added), and it proceeds not in narrative order but in numerical order through the legislative code. So to follow any particular substantive point, you have to wend your way through the bill, taking careful notes about each of the points at which the bill gets around to saying something about the point you're interested in. And having in the past been paid to review legislation for the Governor's office here in Indiana, none of that makes any sense unless you have all of the affected provisions of the existing code open in books around you, so you can see the broader context in which the essentially typographical commands are being issued.

Let me just run a highlighter over this: the Indiana Governor's office paid private legal counsel to review legislation prior to signature because reading legislation is an exacting task that requires intense legal scrutiny.

When legislators don't read legislation, it isn't because they're lazy. They do it because this would be an irrational way for them to spend their time. They have staff for that; the staff immerse themselves in the legislative minutiae and produce reports that legislators actually ought to read -- or at least they ought to have someone on staff who reads them and explains it to them.

Anyone who scoffs that those who enacted Obamacare didn't even read the bill demonstrates that he lacks the first clue about how legislators actually operate.
 
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Is that not why there are good lawyers and great lawyers. We exist for a reason to defend and promote the desires of our clients. Great lawyers find the issue/s that give them the best chance at success for their Clients. I use to win a lot of search and seizure cases for my clients because of technicalities, statutory and case law construction. Did not like it so much but that was the job at the time - spent the last 15 years in the corporate environment where I did not have to deal with that so much.
 
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