Evansville and the battle with ISIS

[hootch1]

I grew up in a rural area outside of Evansville, IN. I left the area when I was 16 with a few periods of short stays. My siblings still live there.

I was surprised to hear the NPR story on an effort in Evansville discussing Islam. There are a series of short videos discussing the tenets of Islam. There may be multiple episodes on a particular question. It appears that they try to keep the episodes around four or five minutes.

I watched parts of a series on the history of Islam and parts of a discussion on Islamic views of violence and freedom of religion. The first was illustrated with a voice over. The second was a (rehearsed) discussion between the leader of the Islamic Society of Evansville Imam Omar Atia and Zac Parsons. Atia is also the co-founder of Reclamation studios which is producing the shorts. Apparently it is an international operation with at least one person in Egypt working on the site. There are 70 threads currently planned.

I don't know how effective this will be. The few episodes I viewed were interesting.

<a href="http://reclamationstudios.org/series/">You can view</a>the current videos here.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Peaceful Muslims such as these are appealing to the wrong people. Rather than trying to convince non-Muslims that Islam is mainstream and peaceful religion, they should work to root out the radicals in their midst so as to make it so.

People believe actions more than words, as they should.

 

[hoosboot]

Peaceful Muslims such as these are appealing to the wrong people. Rather than trying to convince non-Muslims that Islam is mainstream and peaceful religion, they should work to root out the radicals in their midst so as to make it so.

People believe actions more than words, as they should.

I suspect that your reaction here is reflective of one of the reasons why they are doing it.

 

[hootch1]

The videos I watched were not focused on active Muslims. They, for example, would not need a history of Islam.

It is possible, I suppose, that someone searching for information on Islam might run across this and find a different interpretaion that migh be helpful.

Right now it is for those that are ignorant of Islam which is much of America and those that might need an initial different view.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I grew up in a rural area outside of Evansville, IN. I left the area when I was 16 with a few periods of short stays. My siblings still live there.

I was surprised to hear the NPR story on an effort in Evansville discussing Islam. There are a series of short videos discussing the tenets of Islam. There may be multiple episodes on a particular question. It appears that they try to keep the episodes around four or five minutes.

I watched parts of a series on the history of Islam and parts of a discussion on Islamic views of violence and freedom of religion. The first was illustrated with a voice over. The second was a (rehearsed) discussion between the leader of the Islamic Society of Evansville Imam Omar Atia and Zac Parsons. Atia is also the co-founder of Reclamation studios which is producing the shorts. Apparently it is an international operation with at least one person in Egypt working on the site. There are 70 threads currently planned.

I don't know how effective this will be. The few episodes I viewed were interesting.

<a href="http://reclamationstudios.org/series/">You can view</a>the current videos here.

Have you been watching the Tyrant on FXX?

It seems to be based on a very very loose interpretation of what is going on in Syria--complete with gassing citizens. The first season was so-so. The second season is shaping up as a fairly well-written and well played depiction of the conflict among "moderate" Muslims, "radical" muslims, and the secular government which maintains ruthless control of the country. The script gives us some understanding of the roots of this kind of three-way conflict. The script also has a few soap-opera themes which I can do without.

Trying to first determine the "true" nature of Islam for purposes of fashioning a public policy about it is a total waste of time and effort. Islam is both peaceful and ruthless and violent. Our own policy is incoherent towards Islam. On the one hand we specifically say ISIS is "not Islamic" and on the other hand we say attacking US facilities with mortars and small arms, killing an ambassador in the process, because of an obscure cartoon about the Prophet, is Islamic. We just need to accept the notion that some Muslims simply want to live in peace, go to work, and raise a family like anybody, and others must destroy everything in sight, including communities of people, who are determined to be un-Islamic.

 

[Sope Creek]

Peaceful Muslims such as these are appealing to the wrong people. Rather than trying to convince non-Muslims that Islam is mainstream and peaceful religion, they should work to root out the radicals in their midst so as to make it so.

People believe actions more than words, as they should.

*sigh*

You might want to listen to the NPR report from this morning's telecast. I only caught a snippet in the car, but the snippet was of an Evansville professor talking about how the videos are designed for those who know little about Islam and who may be prone to being attracted to ISIS' online propaganda. The idea is that if these types of videos are available they may have a significant impact countering ISIS' propaganda.

 

[hootch1]

Have you been watching the Tyrant on FXX?

It seems to be based on a very very loose interpretation of what is going on in Syria--complete with gassing citizens. The first season was so-so. The second season is shaping up as a fairly well-written and well played depiction of the conflict among "moderate" Muslims, "radical" muslims, and the secular government which maintains ruthless control of the country. The script gives us some understanding of the roots of this kind of three-way conflict. The script also has a few soap-opera themes which I can do without.

Trying to first determine the "true" nature of Islam for purposes of fashioning a public policy about it is a total waste of time and effort. Islam is both peaceful and ruthless and violent. Our own policy is incoherent towards Islam. On the one hand we specifically say ISIS is "not Islamic" and on the other hand we say attacking US facilities with mortars and small arms, killing an ambassador in the process, because of an obscure cartoon about the Prophet, is Islamic. We just need to accept the notion that some Muslims simply want to live in peace, go to work, and raise a family like anybody, and others must destroy everything in sight, including communities of people, who are determined to be un-Islamic.

I posted about the effort of a group in Evansville that is trying to communicate with people about their view of Islam. I admitted that I did not know if it would have an impact on anything.

My intent was to highlight an effort. You don't seem capable of providing any substantive input here. I haven't watched the show. All of that was covered in an Atlantic Monthly, I belive, article a couple of months ago. None of what you provided was new or useful.

I will reiterate, there is a group in Evansville, IN that is trying to contribute to an understanding of Islam, you might find it interesting. If you hate Muslims or afeared of them, it has no import to you.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I suspect that your reaction here is reflective of one of the reasons why they are doing it.

Um, OK. Doesn't really change what I said, though.

Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it. The healthy parts of the religion should focus their efforts on rooting it out instead of diverting attention to it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Um, OK. Doesn't really change what I said, though.

Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it. The healthy parts of the religion should focus their efforts on rooting it out instead of diverting attention to it.

Well, one of their stated goals of the videos is to offer a counterpoint to ISIS propaganda. Is that not good enough for you? Do you think it should be the responsibility of every Muslim in the world to travel to Syria and take up arms against ISIS?

I just want to know how you think they are falling short here.

 

[Sope Creek]

Um, OK. Doesn't really change what I said, though.

Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it. The healthy parts of the religion should focus their efforts on rooting it out instead of diverting attention to it.

*bangs head against wall*

According to the NPR report, that's pretty much the purpose of the videos; they're wanting to fill the void of solid and accurate information regarding Islam with videos directed to the demographic segments that ISIS has been exploiting with its online propaganda. The idea is to counteract lone wolf and ISIS recruits by providing information regarding an appropriate and healthy understanding/adherence to Islam looks like, rather than morbidly corrupt vision of it that the ISIS propaganda portrays.

 

[hootch1]

Wow! I put this out there as a possible example of things that the Muslim community is doing to enhance the conversation.

One reply is:

"Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it."

In many ways that is true. In most ways that leaves us few options.

I had hoped for some discussion, but, within the conservative groups on this board there seems to be no ideas beyond destruction. Do we focus on influencing Muslims that support peace or just go after them.

Deriding observant Muslims is foolhardy. Attacking Muslim establishments in Tennessee or Texas is short sighted and counterproductive.

Maybe a smaller city in rural Indiana is more aware than this board.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Wow! I put this out there as a possible example of things that the Muslim community is doing to enhance the conversation.

One reply is:

"Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it."

In many ways that is true. In most ways that leaves us few options.

I had hoped for some discussion, but, within the conservative groups on this board there seems to be no ideas beyond destruction. Do we focus on influencing Muslims that support peace or just go after them.

Deriding observant Muslims is foolhardy. Attacking Muslim establishments in Tennessee or Texas is short sighted and counterproductive.

Maybe a smaller city in rural Indiana is more aware than this board.

Have you ever read any of the novels of Brad Thor?

He's a shitty writer and a terrible Islamaphobe who fills his fiction novels with partisan hackery that really amounts to not much more than a Glenn Beck wet dream. But he does spin a good yarn, and his plots move quickly with lots of tension, so they aren't entirely unenjoyable. Anyway, in The Apostle, he gives his opinion his main character opines that "There can be peaceful Muslims, but there can be no peaceful Islam."

Obvious contradiction aside, many conservatives genuinely think like that. They don't believe that it's possible to live in peace with Muslims, because they think Islam is inherently violent, and will corrupt even the most well-meaning adherents. To such people, trying to explain a peaceful version of Islam is a useless exercise, because these peaceful Muslims in the videos you shared are really nothing other than terrorists waiting to happen.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Wow! I put this out there as a possible example of things that the Muslim community is doing to enhance the conversation.

One reply is:

"Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it."

In many ways that is true. In most ways that leaves us few options.

I had hoped for some discussion, but, within the conservative groups on this board there seems to be no ideas beyond destruction. Do we focus on influencing Muslims that support peace or just go after them.

Deriding observant Muslims is foolhardy. Attacking Muslim establishments in Tennessee or Texas is short sighted and counterproductive.

Maybe a smaller city in rural Indiana is more aware than this board.

I don't understand this post at all

Are you suggesting that there is a one-size-fits-all Muslim faith? That there is no variety of beliefs? Not even the Muslims believe that. Muslims spend a significant amount of time and effort fighting each other because of the belief that the "other" is not the right kind of Muslim.

If the Muslims cannot agree on what is the correct and true Islam, how can any thing produced by a US production company clear the air? Seems to me our first task is to recognize the significant diversity in Islam and quit trying to taylor public policy to fit OUR view of Islam.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Have you ever read any of the novels of Brad Thor?

He's a shitty writer and a terrible Islamaphobe who fills his fiction novels with partisan hackery that really amounts to not much more than a Glenn Beck wet dream. But he does spin a good yarn, and his plots move quickly with lots of tension, so they aren't entirely unenjoyable. Anyway, in The Apostle, he gives his opinion his main character opines that "There can be peaceful Muslims, but there can be no peaceful Islam."

Obvious contradiction aside, many conservatives genuinely think like that. They don't believe that it's possible to live in peace with Muslims, because they think Islam is inherently violent, and will corrupt even the most well-meaning adherents. To such people, trying to explain a peaceful version of Islam is a useless exercise, because these peaceful Muslims in the videos you shared are really nothing other than terrorists waiting to happen.

There you go again

The all-knowing goat presumes to tell conservatives what we believe. You've been full of crap about this for years and you still are. Maybe some conservatives believe Islam is inherently violent. But all that means is that some conservatives believe one way and some believe another way--just like Muslims.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don't understand this post at all

Are you suggesting that there is a one-size-fits-all Muslim faith? That there is no variety of beliefs? Not even the Muslims believe that. Muslims spend a significant amount of time and effort fighting each other because of the belief that the "other" is not the right kind of Muslim.

If the Muslims cannot agree on what is the correct and true Islam, how can any thing produced by a US production company clear the air? Seems to me our first task is to recognize the significant diversity in Islam and quit trying to taylor public policy to fit OUR view of Islam.

Incredibly non-responsive and ridiculously trollish. Are you capable of reading the words other people type?

Yes, I'm being harsh and a little rude. This kind of posting needs to stop. If you can't address what hootch actually said, shut the hell up.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

There you go again

The all-knowing goat presumes to tell conservatives what we believe. You've been full of crap about this for years and you still are. Maybe some conservatives believe Islam is inherently violent. But all that means is that some conservatives believe one way and some believe another way--just like Muslims.

Maybe some? I know of at least one.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Maybe some? I know of at least one.

Cut the BS goat

Are you talking about me? I recall you going apeshit x 10 because I wouldn't admit something about Islam. You were so obsessed you not only pestered me with your baloney, but you included that nonsense about me in posts directed to others. Your focus on what I think of Islam is the definition of an obsession. What is it with you? Give it up. You don't know squat.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Cut the BS goat

Are you talking about me? I recall you going apeshit x 10 because I wouldn't admit something about Islam. You were so obsessed you not only pestered me with your baloney, but you included that nonsense about me in posts directed to others. Your focus on what I think of Islam is the definition of an obsession. What is it with you? Give it up. You don't know squat.

Obviously I was talking about Brad Thor. Short attention span much?

I do know several things. I know that you have consistently for years implied that you think Muslims are violent by nature. When I have accused you of such, you have taken such strenuous offense, while notably avoiding actually denying the charge.

"How dare you!" and the such.

You've become a troll, COH. Whatever the discussion, all you can add is, "Liberals suck, Obama sucks, Muslims suck." I can't remember the last time you actually added anything to a conversation on here. Take a break. Go away. Please.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Obviously I was talking about Brad Thor. Short attention span much?

I do know several things. I know that you have consistently for years implied that you think Muslims are violent by nature. When I have accused you of such, you have taken such strenuous offense, while notably avoiding actually denying the charge.

"How dare you!" and the such.

You've become a troll, COH. Whatever the discussion, all you can add is, "Liberals suck, Obama sucks, Muslims suck." I can't remember the last time you actually added anything to a conversation on here. Take a break. Go away. Please.

2 out of 3 aint bad

Not all Muslims suck.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Well, one of their stated goals of the videos is to offer a counterpoint to ISIS propaganda. Is that not good enough for you? Do you think it should be the responsibility of every Muslim in the world to travel to Syria and take up arms against ISIS?

I just want to know how you think they are falling short here.

Who is the target audience?

If it's non-Muslims, then they're preaching to the wrong people. Again, Muslins of good faith need to be rooting out the jihadists in their midst. That should be the focus of their outreach efforts.

If they do that, what they're trying to do here will take care of itself, doncha think?

 

[hoosboot]

Who is the target audience?

If it's non-Muslims, then they're preaching to the wrong people. Again, Muslins of good faith need to be rooting out the jihadists in their midst. That should be the focus of their outreach efforts.

If they do that, what they're trying to do here will take care of itself, doncha think?

No...I really don't...because I see little evidence that people such as yourself have the capacity to distinguish Muslims of good faith or see the efforts that Muslims of good faith make to do exactly that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Who is the target audience?

If it's non-Muslims, then they're preaching to the wrong people. Again, Muslins of good faith need to be rooting out the jihadists in their midst. That should be the focus of their outreach efforts.

If they do that, what they're trying to do here will take care of itself, doncha think?

I'm not sure how to respond to this except to repeat the very post you quoted:

"Well, one of their stated goals of the videos is to offer a counterpoint to ISIS propaganda. Is that not good enough for you? Do you think it should be the responsibility of every Muslim in the world to travel to Syria and take up arms against ISIS?

I just want to know how you think they are falling short here."

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

"Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it."

In many ways that is true.

It's entirely and unquestionably true.

In most ways that leaves us few options.

I had hoped for some discussion, but, within the conservative groups on this board there seems to be no ideas beyond destruction.

Bzzzz, wrong. Try again. Totally implicit within what I'm saying is that "us" can't fix it...with destruction or anything else. Islam has to fix itself. But instead of doing that, they're putting their efforts into convincing non-Muslims that they aren't all beheaders...as if anybody with half a brain doesn't realize that.

Do you really think anybody who would see these films doesn't realize that ISIS doesn't represent Islam at-large?

Do we focus on influencing Muslims that support peace or just go after them.

We should put pressure on them to quit, for instance, supporting Hamas and other violent, extremist groups. And they need to start weeding out their radical clerics.

Deriding observant Muslims is foolhardy.

OK. But I wasn't deriding anybody. I was saying they're talking to the wrong people.

Attacking Muslim establishments in Tennessee or Texas is short sighted and counterproductive.

Well, of course. But what's that have to do with what I'm saying?

We need to isolate and marginalized the violent radicals. It's not much different than insisting that mainstream, peaceful pro-lifers denounce in no uncertain terms the thugs among them who murder abortion doctors. Saying that is not to paint them all with a broad brush -- it's about marginalization. It's about saying that they need to rise up in unison against that violence -- or else own it.

It's insisting they get off the fence -- while recognizing implicitly that they can do so while maintaining their anti-abortion bonafides.

This is a bitter pill for some pro-lifers to swallow, I know. So, too, it is for Muslims to denounce Hamas, etal. It becomes a "complicated question"...because they think that to do so is to take Israel's side in that conflict.

Maybe a smaller city in rural Indiana is more aware than this board.

Ironically enough, it's where I live. And I know a number of Muslims who live here. And I've had this very conversation with one of them before.

As Pete Seeger once sang "Which side are you on?" There comes a time when you really do have to choose sides. Choosing "our" side does not have to mean going against Islam -- quite the contrary. But it does mean going against those who use violence in the name of Islam. And too many Muslins find that very difficult to do.

It's far easier to preach to non-Muslims about how ISIS and al-Qaida don't represent Islam than it is to confront the ugly reality that Islam does, indeed, have a cancer growing within it.

Doing that just might make you a target.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

No...I really don't...because I see little evidence that people such as yourself have the capacity to distinguish Muslims of good faith or see the efforts that Muslims of good faith make to do exactly that.

Really, hoos? I don't have the "capacity"?

What I see, all too often, are Muslims deflecting attention away from the cancer in their religion, refusing to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.

It's a lot easier to indict everybody else as having created a bogeyman.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It's entirely and unquestionably true.



Bzzzz, wrong. Try again. Totally implicit within what I'm saying is that "us" can't fix it...with destruction or anything else. Islam has to fix itself. But instead of doing that, they're putting their efforts into convincing non-Muslims that they aren't all beheaders...as if anybody with half a brain doesn't realize that.

Do you really think anybody who would see these films doesn't realize that ISIS doesn't represent Islam at-large?



We should put pressure on them to quit, for instance, supporting Hamas and other violent, extremist groups. And they need to start weeding out their radical clerics.



OK. But I wasn't deriding anybody. I was saying they're talking to the wrong people.



Well, of course. But what's that have to do with what I'm saying?

We need to isolate and marginalized the violent radicals. It's not much different than insisting that mainstream, peaceful pro-lifers denounce in no uncertain terms the thugs among them who murder abortion doctors. Saying that is not to paint them all with a broad brush -- it's about marginalization. It's about saying that they need to rise up in unison against that violence -- or else own it.

It's insisting they get off the fence -- while recognizing implicitly that they can do so while maintaining their anti-abortion bonafides.

This is a bitter pill for some pro-lifers to swallow, I know. So, too, it is for Muslims to denounce Hamas, etal. It becomes a "complicated question"...because they think that to do so is to take Israel's side in that conflict.



Ironically enough, it's where I live. And I know a number of Muslims who live here. And I've had this very conversation with one of them before.

As Pete Seeger once sang "Which side are you on?" There comes a time when you really do have to choose sides. Choosing "our" side does not have to mean going against Islam -- quite the contrary. But it does mean going against those who use violence in the name of Islam. And too many Muslins find that very difficult to do.

It's far easier to preach to non-Muslims about how ISIS and al-Qaida don't represent Islam than it is to confront the ugly reality that Islam does, indeed, have a cancer growing within it.

Doing that just might make you a target.

The thing is, Muslims denounce ISIS all the goddamn time. Why is this not good enough for you? What do you expect? They do exactly what you say they should do, then you blast them for not doing it.

What am I missing?

These videos were prepared as counterarguments to ISIS. So people who watched ISIS propaganda might also have a chance to see an alternative view. Isn't that exactly what you say you want them to do? I only watched two of the videos so far, but about 40% of each of them was a Muslim man denouncing ISIS and explaining why their interpretation of the Quran was wrong. Isn't that exactly what you are asking for here?

 

[iuwclurker]

Hootch: American Evansville Muslims are trying to communicate to vulnerable, naive American teenagers, to possibly prevent them from getting duped into joining ISIS

crazed: Muslims, writ large, need to take responsibility for the fanatics in their 2 billion midst because we Americans can't.

How do you spell non sequitor?

 

[hoosboot]

Really, hoos? I don't have the "capacity"?

What I see, all too often, are Muslims deflecting attention away from the cancer in their religion, refusing to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.

It's a lot easier to indict everybody else as having created a bogeyman.

I'm certain that's what you "see". So...yes, really, crazed. It's something you show time and time again.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The thing is, Muslims denounce ISIS all the goddamn time. Why is this not good enough for you? What do you expect? They do exactly what you say they should do, then you blast them for not doing it.

What am I missing?

These videos were prepared as counterarguments to ISIS. So people who watched ISIS propaganda might also have a chance to see an alternative view. Isn't that exactly what you say you want them to do? I only watched two of the videos so far, but about 40% of each of them was a Muslim man denouncing ISIS and explaining why their interpretation of the Quran was wrong. Isn't that exactly what you are asking for here?

Here is what you are missing

Muslims denouncing Muslims is meaningless. Muslims explaining why another Muslim's interpretation of he Quran is wrong is not news. This happens all the time and has been happening for eons. Taking sides in the conflicts between and among all Muslims doesn't solve the issue with ISIS. I think it furthers the problem.

Christianity started in the Middle East and has been there for 2000 years. Not any longer. The region has been cleansed. For all practical purposes the Christian Church is gone in the ME. So are a lot of other freedoms and individual rights. Also gone is the ME contributions to science, trade, and technology. What happened? Think about that. Think about just the changes since the time of T.E. Lawrence.

I am not particularly interested in anti-ISIS propaganda that tells the world why ISIS followers are not legitimate Muslims. I want to see propaganda that tells the world freedom of religion is important, equal rights for women is a good thing, Christians and Jews are really okay, and there are human rights values and systems of governance which are worth standing up for regardless of religion. I don't see much of this from the moderate Muslims. There is a imbedded sense of religious supremacy in the Muslim faith as it is practiced by most clerics of the world. If the American Muslims are not into the supremacy theology, like many American non Muslims believe, that is the message which must be delivered. It isn't. I don't think it will be.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I want to see propaganda that tells the world freedom of religion is important, equal rights for women is a good thing, Christians and Jews are really okay, and there are human rights values and systems of governance which are worth standing up for regardless of religion. I don't see much of this from the moderate Muslims. There is a imbedded sense of religious supremacy in the Muslim faith as it is practiced by most clerics of the world. If the American Muslims are not into the supremacy theology, like many American non Muslims believe, that is the message which must be delivered. It isn't. I don't think it will be.

Then you didn't watch any of the videos posted, because I only watched two, and in those two short videos, I heard almost all of that (nothing about women yet).

I'm not sure what to make of your other comments. Are you implying that the decline in science and culture in the Middle East is related to the decline of Christianity in the region? History would say that such a claim is nonsense, but that's what it sounds like you're suggesting.

 

[hoot1]

Islam does, indeed, have a cancer growing within it.

The phrase "Islam does does, indeed, have a cancer growing within it" doesn't explain much in my view.

It seems to say Islam has a problem which other religions don't have. Furthermore it doesn't tell us what this "cancer" is. It leaves me with the impression that the cure lies squarely with the patient (Islam) to find a cure. It also leaves me with the notion that Islam is a monolithic religion and ignores the various sects within this religion.

A Muslim in hearing that his religion has a growing cancer might respond that if the cancer is evil then the problem isn't merely a Muslim problem. Furthermore the cure lies within each Muslim to find a way to eliminate evil from his life within the teachings of Islam.

So in the final analysis, evil (a cancer) lurks to infect the hearts and minds of everyone regardless of their religion or personal worldviews. Each Muslim, just like everyone else, should focus on fighting the temptation to engage in evil actions before casting stones.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Then you didn't watch any of the videos posted, because I only watched two, and in those two short videos, I heard almost all of that (nothing about women yet).

I'm not sure what to make of your other comments. Are you implying that the decline in science and culture in the Middle East is related to the decline of Christianity in the region? History would say that such a claim is nonsense, but that's what it sounds like you're suggesting.

Strip your mind of

your CO.HDS and reread what I said.

Hint: The cleansing of Christianity from the region and the decline of strong and productive culture are results from the same cause.

P.S. I spoke more in generalities. The couple of videos I watched represent an outlier. But I don't intend to criticize those in particular. That message needs to be delivered on a broader front. I posted about el-Sisi's comments about similar points in earlier in the year, with no traction, and certainly no support from you. You seem to be preoccupied with what you think I think about Islam.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Strip your mind of

your CO.HDS and reread what I said.

Hint: The clensing of Christianity from the region and the decline of strong and productive culture are results from the same cause.

So you're not implying they are related. You are flat out saying it. What is the "same cause" you speak of? Stop playing games. Make your claim.

 

[hootch1]

I don't understand this post at all

Are you suggesting that there is a one-size-fits-all Muslim faith? That there is no variety of beliefs? Not even the Muslims believe that. Muslims spend a significant amount of time and effort fighting each other because of the belief that the "other" is not the right kind of Muslim.

If the Muslims cannot agree on what is the correct and true Islam, how can any thing produced by a US production company clear the air? Seems to me our first task is to recognize the significant diversity in Islam and quit trying to taylor public policy to fit OUR view of Islam.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion when I posted that this group is trying to combat the ISIS ideology.

 

[hootch1]

Here is what you are missing

Muslims denouncing Muslims is meaningless. Muslims explaining why another Muslim's interpretation of he Quran is wrong is not news. This happens all the time and has been happening for eons. Taking sides in the conflicts between and among all Muslims doesn't solve the issue with ISIS. I think it furthers the problem.

Christianity started in the Middle East and has been there for 2000 years. Not any longer. The region has been cleansed. For all practical purposes the Christian Church is gone in the ME. So are a lot of other freedoms and individual rights. Also gone is the ME contributions to science, trade, and technology. What happened? Think about that. Think about just the changes since the time of T.E. Lawrence.

I am not particularly interested in anti-ISIS propaganda that tells the world why ISIS followers are not legitimate Muslims. I want to see propaganda that tells the world freedom of religion is important, equal rights for women is a good thing, Christians and Jews are really okay, and there are human rights values and systems of governance which are worth standing up for regardless of religion. I don't see much of this from the moderate Muslims. There is a imbedded sense of religious supremacy in the Muslim faith as it is practiced by most clerics of the world. If the American Muslims are not into the supremacy theology, like many American non Muslims believe, that is the message which must be delivered. It isn't. I don't think it will be.

Had you taken a few minutes to look at the videos you would have seen a discussion of freedom of religion. In fact, I noted in the opening post that one of the series dealt freedom of religion.

I watched parts of a series on the history of Islam and parts of a discussion on Islamic views of violence and freedom of religion.

I understand that we all have our own agenda, but it would help if you would read, listen and consider before criticizing something that is actually being discussed.

Islamic scholars during the middle ages surpassed their Christian counterparts. (They also surpassed their Christian counterparts in religious freedom for centuries. It was better to be a Jew in an Islamic country than to be one in a Christian country.) Science was a means to understand the glory of Allah. Eventually their discoveries in science started to question parts of their religion. Over time science became secondary to religion.

A good read on this is Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God: Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam

 

[iubud]

Wow! I put this out there as a possible example of things that the Muslim community is doing to enhance the conversation.

One reply is:

"Islam has a deadly, dangerous cancer growing within it."

In many ways that is true. In most ways that leaves us few options.

I had hoped for some discussion, but, within the conservative groups on this board there seems to be no ideas beyond destruction. Do we focus on influencing Muslims that support peace or just go after them.

Deriding observant Muslims is foolhardy. Attacking Muslim establishments in Tennessee or Texas is short sighted and counterproductive.

Maybe a smaller city in rural Indiana is more aware than this board.

Evansville also has an Interfaith Council that our pastor is an active member in. They signed up to work as an organization to build a Habitat house. Muslims, Christians, Jews, and people of all faiths working together. There are good people of all faiths. Working together in the public will help people realize that Islam gets a bad image from the most radicalized and misguided followers of their religion.

I don't associate all Baptists as evil because the Westboro Baptists are scum. Baptists would surely want that congregation to stop what they are doing like the vast majority of Muslims in the US don't want anything to do with terrorism.

 

[Sope Creek]

Really, hoos? I don't have the "capacity"?

What I see, all too often, are Muslims deflecting attention away from the cancer in their religion, refusing to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.

It's a lot easier to indict everybody else as having created a bogeyman.

I agree with hoos.

From what I can tell, you're stubbornly holding on to a willful ignorance, despite loads of well-spoken commentary that should be enough to walk a reasonable person back from doubling-down on their ignorance of the purpose and intended effect of the videos.

Shorter crazedhoosier: "You can't change my mind no matter how stupid I am."

To which I respond: "There's your answer."

If you had criticized the videos as being unproven (they are) or unlikely to succeed because they're focused on trying to persuade folks who won't/refuse to be persuaded by a positive message, then I think there's room for that. But your commentary is simply a broad brushed attack on all of Islam, per se.

Well, I know a bigot when I see one, and you're a bigot, crazed. Pfffffffffffffffffttttttttt.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

So you're not implying they are related. You are flat out saying it. What is the "same cause" you speak of? Stop playing games. Make your claim.

If you are even a fraction as smart as you claim to be

You'd readily know the answer. I have posted about it often. Since the 60's Islam, particularly in the Middle East and South West Asia, has transformed towards its fundamentalist roots. There is evidence of this all over the place. There are a number of reasons for this; including the Pakistani/Indian partition, the existence of Israel and the humiliating wars, modernization, and the fear of "Westernization".
But I am not interested in going down this rabbit hole with you. You already have your view of what I think about Islam.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If you are even a fraction as smart as you claim to be

You'd readily know the answer. I have posted about it often. Since the 60's Islam, particularly in the Middle East and South West Asia, has transformed towards its fundamentalist roots. There is evidence of this all over the place. There are a number of reasons for this; including the Pakistani/Indian partition, the existence of Israel and the humiliating wars, modernization, and the fear of "Westernization".
But I am not interested in going down this rabbit hole with you. You already have your view of what I think about Islam.

Well, since the ME stopped being a center of science and learning centuries ago, and the decline in Christian population in the region probably happened way back when, as well, I'm not sure what that has to do with how the region has changed since the 60's.
Of course I think I know the answer. But I can't ever get you to say it. All you do is imply and subtly hint, and when anyone asks you to just say what you mean, you demur. Possibly because what I think is the answer really is the answer, and you don't want to own up to it, and give up your cloak of defensiveness?
Say what you think. Put it out there. Say it explicitly. If you're not willing to do that, either stay out of the conversation or stop bitching when the rest of us read between the lines of your posts.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Well, since the ME stopped being a center of science and learning centuries ago, and the decline in Christian population in the region probably happened way back when, as well, I'm not sure what that has to do with how the region has changed since the 60's.
Of course I think I know the answer. But I can't ever get you to say it. All you do is imply and subtly hint, and when anyone asks you to just say what you mean, you demur. Possibly because what I think is the answer really is the answer, and you don't want to own up to it, and give up your cloak of defensiveness?
Say what you think. Put it out there. Say it explicitly. If you're not willing to do that, either stay out of the conversation or stop bitching when the rest of us read between the lines of your posts.

Stop being a dumbass

What is unclear about me saying Islam in the ME and SWA is transforming to fundamentalist roots and that is mostly happened in the last half of the 20th century? Active clensing of Christianity from the region is far different from the "decline of Christian population". You really need to check or CO.HDS at the door if you wish to engage me.