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Caitlyn Jenner or Lauren Hill--which should receive the Arthur Ashe Courage Award?

Caitlyn Jenner or Lauren Hill--which should receive the Arthur Ashe Courage Award?

  • Caitlyn Jenner

    Votes: 5 5.3%
  • Lauren Hill

    Votes: 90 94.7%

  • Total voters
    95
I agree with you

Our national obsession with LBGT issues is mind-boggling. I think how that relates to marriage is legit discussion, since that has real consequences in many different aspects of public policy. Beyond that, who cares? And why do they care?

A high school valedictorian was applauded and praised for coming out at her graduation speech at a Colorado school. I think she was arrogant and self-centered. She assumed people cared about who she loves. I think most people care about it because the LBGT interest groups make a big deal out of it. Jenner presents a different consideration because he is a public figure. There are thousands of people having sex changes all the time and they don't make the news.

People are motivated by power and influence; maybe even more than they are motivated by money. It seems to me that these "coming out" announcements and the conspicuous demonstrations of the LBGT interest groups is part of the power and influence thing. They want to be noticed.
 
I agree with you

Our national obsession with LBGT issues is mind-boggling. I think how that relates to marriage is legit discussion, since that has real consequences in many different aspects of public policy. Beyond that, who cares? And why do they care?

A high school valedictorian was applauded and praised for coming out at her graduation speech at a Colorado school. I think she was arrogant and self-centered. She assumed people cared about who she loves. I think most people care about it because the LBGT interest groups make a big deal out of it. Jenner presents a different consideration because he is a public figure. There are thousands of people having sex changes all the time and they don't make the news.

People are motivated by power and influence; maybe even more than they are motivated by money. It seems to me that these "coming out" announcements and the conspicuous demonstrations of the LBGT interest groups is part of the power and influence thing. They want to be noticed.
I wish that you were right. And we're getting closer to a point where you would be. But the fact of the matter is, many people still do care who that high school valedictorian loves. They still want her to know she's going to hell. To say that people wouldn't care if they just didn't try to grab attention is wrong. If anything, forcing these issues out into the open is valuable, because the people who do care can no longer hide behind their own silence. They either have to confront their own bigotry or abandon it.
 
I honestly don't know who would be the better recipient. Jenner does kind of seem like the flavor of the month. I'd probably lean toward Hill, but was she as big of a story nationwide as she was in the Midwest?

Is the scope of the coverage of a story what determines courage?

If that's what our values are, we need to revisit them. In fact, the lack of coverage of a story - or at least the lack of expectation of coverage - would be a major, if not determining, factor weighing in favor of someone's demonstration of courage in my book.

Frankly, I don't see what Jenner is doing to be all that courageous. He's doing what tens of thousands of folks do - or don't get to do in may cases - and the only reason he's a story is that he's sought the limelight his entire life. I'd think that in this context real courage is the trans-man or trans-woman who either goes through with the transition with few resources or support because that's what's required to make them comfortable with who they are, or are struggling with their identities because of a lack of resources/support to go through it.

Either way, Jenner just seems like an attention whore no matter his, er, her, gender status, and worse, s/he wants to get paid for it.

Meh.
 
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Is the scope of the coverage of a story what determines courage?

If that's what our values are, we need to revisit them. In fact, the lack of coverage of a story - or at least the lack of expectation of coverage - would be a major, if not determining, factor weighing in favor of someone's demonstration of courage in my book.

Frankly, I don't see what Jenner is doing to be all that courageous. He's doing what tens of thousands of folks do - or don't get to do in may cases - and the only reason he's a story is that he's sought the limelight his entire life. I'd think that in this context real courage is the trans-man or trans-woman who either goes through with the transition with few resources or support because that's what's required to make them comfortable with who they are, or are struggling with their identities because of a lack of resources/support to go through it.

Either way, Jenner just seems like an attention whore no matter his gender status, and worse, he wants to get paid for it.

Meh.
Perfect Sope... That was said perfectly.
 
I wish that you were right. And we're getting closer to a point where you would be. But the fact of the matter is, many people still do care who that high school valedictorian loves. They still want her to know she's going to hell. To say that people wouldn't care if they just didn't try to grab attention is wrong. If anything, forcing these issues out into the open is valuable, because the people who do care can no longer hide behind their own silence. They either have to confront their own bigotry or abandon it.

"They still want her to know she's going to hell."

That's legit. So much of the LGBT issue relates back to a backlash against the Religious Right and those Christians who believe there is sin being practiced. That is old news. We are past that. The culture has changed. This is kept alive not because Christians are conspicuous with their objections, but instead only because LBGT interest groups find power and attention in exposing Christians on this issue. This is the whole motivation behind the Memories Pizza flap.
 
"They still want her to know she's going to hell."

That's legit. So much of the LGBT issue relates back to a backlash against the Religious Right and those Christians who believe there is sin being practiced. That is old news. We are past that. The culture has changed. This is kept alive not because Christians are conspicuous with their objections, but instead only because LBGT interest groups find power and attention in exposing Christians on this issue. This is the whole motivation behind the Memories Pizza flap.
The Pizza thing wasn't because LGBT interest groups wanted to make hay. It was because a local reporter wanted to make hay. My understanding is the reporter who did the story called around asking businesses if they'd turn down a same-sex wedding until one said yes.

I do think some people "find power" in "exposing Christians," as you say. But you are wrong to say Christians are inconspicuous about their objections. Some are. Many are, in fact, but many are not. It's not just Westboro baptist. People still leave Chick tracts around. People share "straight pride" memes on Facebook. A lot of people. People still have family crises when their kids come out to them.

The issue might be "old news," but we're not "past that." Not quite yet.
 
ABCSPN has completely devalued their networks and the award by giving this to Jenner. Sort of like giving a Pulitzer Prize to a National Enquirer reporter or someone at TMZ, they have thrown themselves into the reality show mix proclaiming Jenner as showing some kind of courage when he has been chasing publicity for years.

It also looks like ESPN has become the mouthpiece for the LGBT community with 2 Ashe award winners in a row. The network execs at ESPN have not only cheapened the award named for Arthur Ashe but ignored all the people who really show courage and their cause deserves/needs recognition. The good news is there are more and more alternatives to ESPN and I rarely watch it anymore. All their good personalities are gone because they won't give them contracts and there are other networks that compete with them now like B1G network, NFL, MLB, etc. ESPN is corporate and stale.
 
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First, I really don't care about the ESPYs. I have purposely avoided watching the broadcast. I don't want to put down Ashe, but I find this award nothing more than a money grab by ESPN. Invent some award, televise it on a day there are literally no other sports, and watch the cash roll in. Given that I suspect the chief criteria is "who will bring in ratings", why should we care?

That said, I think if we suggest, as some have done since the announcement, that Jenner required no courage then I believe we are wrong. Yes, LGBT may have more acceptance but that is a far cry from acceptance. In addition, the T has the least acceptance of the 4 groups that acronym encompasses. It always takes some courage to run counter to the norm. Not all acts of courage are summed up by a photo of Omaha Beach (a photo I have seen a couple times on Facebook today referencing real courage).

But, if this were something more than an ESPN profiteering attempt, my choice would have been Hill. My second choice would have been the veteran who lost a leg (maybe 2?) and runs marathons. But that does not mean Jenner somehow has shown no courage. How many celebrity types have gone through this procedure after having become a celebrity? Even if just 1 in a thousand want to, there should be actors, politicians, and athletes out there doing this. There are not. Heck, even if one in 5000 we should see them. That tells me the hold against doing it is still fairly strong.
 
First, I really don't care about the ESPYs. I have purposely avoided watching the broadcast. I don't want to put down Ashe, but I find this award nothing more than a money grab by ESPN. Invent some award, televise it on a day there are literally no other sports, and watch the cash roll in. Given that I suspect the chief criteria is "who will bring in ratings", why should we care?

That said, I think if we suggest, as some have done since the announcement, that Jenner required no courage then I believe we are wrong. Yes, LGBT may have more acceptance but that is a far cry from acceptance. In addition, the T has the least acceptance of the 4 groups that acronym encompasses. It always takes some courage to run counter to the norm. Not all acts of courage are summed up by a photo of Omaha Beach (a photo I have seen a couple times on Facebook today referencing real courage).

But, if this were something more than an ESPN profiteering attempt, my choice would have been Hill. My second choice would have been the veteran who lost a leg (maybe 2?) and runs marathons. But that does not mean Jenner somehow has shown no courage. How many celebrity types have gone through this procedure after having become a celebrity? Even if just 1 in a thousand want to, there should be actors, politicians, and athletes out there doing this. There are not. Heck, even if one in 5000 we should see them. That tells me the hold against doing it is still fairly strong.
Marvin, to the best of my knowledge Jenner has not gone through any sort of gender procedure? If he were to try and compete competitively in track again he would have to do it in the men's division because he's a man. He just likes to dress like a woman and his alter ego is a woman.
 
The Pizza thing wasn't because LGBT interest groups wanted to make hay. It was because a local reporter wanted to make hay. My understanding is the reporter who did the story called around asking businesses if they'd turn down a same-sex wedding until one said yes.

I do think some people "find power" in "exposing Christians," as you say. But you are wrong to say Christians are inconspicuous about their objections. Some are. Many are, in fact, but many are not. It's not just Westboro baptist. People still leave Chick tracts around. People share "straight pride" memes on Facebook. A lot of people. People still have family crises when their kids come out to them.

The issue might be "old news," but we're not "past that." Not quite yet.

If people didn't have to worry about being discriminated against so much then I don't think "coming out" would be a big deal. Right now it's courageous to come out because you know people are fighting against you to have the right to marry who you want and that companies are allowed to discriminate against you if your "lifestyle" doesn't fit within the four corners of their Bible. It's my guess that the minute straight people stop making a big deal of everything, gay people will stop too.
 
Marvin, to the best of my knowledge Jenner has not gone through any sort of gender procedure? If he were to try and compete competitively in track again he would have to do it in the men's division because he's a man. He just likes to dress like a woman and his alter ego is a woman.

I think that's going to depend on the particular authority in charge of a given sport/event, but your last sentence belies a misunderstanding about what transgender is, that I suspect is pretty common.

People need to remember that gender and sex are two separate (but related) things. Sex is biological. The vast majority of us are either male or female. There are a small number of intersex people, usually the result of abnormal chromosome division early in development (i.e., some people are XXY genetically).

Gender, however, is cultural. The vast majority of us identify as either a man or a woman (note the different terminology; man/woman vs. male/female), although some people identify as a third gender. In some cultures, there is a third gender that is actually integrated as a standard and respected part of society.

And, finally, for most of us, our gender and our sex correlate. Most males identify as men, and most females identify as women. For intersex people, they usually identify based on either their physical appearance (most XXY people have functioning male parts, for example, and identify as males; many don't even know they are XXY until they are tested as part of a fertility treatment program), or how they were raised (some intersex people are born with portions of both male and female anatomy, and the doctors advice the parents to "assign" a gender and raise the child as that gender; it used to be common for such infants to undergo gender reassignment at a very young age, so that they would not know they were intersex when older). But there are some people who are genetically one of the two main sexes, but don't identify with the same gender. Based on the fact that Jenner has fathered children, he is almost certainly a standard XY male (the vast majority of intersex males are infertile), but has always self-identified as a female. His "transition" is actually simply opening up about his self-identity to the outside world, nothing more.
 
Is the scope of the coverage of a story what determines courage?

If that's what our values are, we need to revisit them. In fact, the lack of coverage of a story - or at least the lack of expectation of coverage - would be a major, if not determining, factor weighing in favor of someone's demonstration of courage in my book.

Frankly, I don't see what Jenner is doing to be all that courageous. He's doing what tens of thousands of folks do - or don't get to do in may cases - and the only reason he's a story is that he's sought the limelight his entire life. I'd think that in this context real courage is the trans-man or trans-woman who either goes through with the transition with few resources or support because that's what's required to make them comfortable with who they are, or are struggling with their identities because of a lack of resources/support to go through it.

Either way, Jenner just seems like an attention whore no matter his, er, her, gender status, and worse, s/he wants to get paid for it.

Meh.
Yeah, but couldn't you just as easily say that even more folks die each year due to brain cancer?

I think ESPN is really dumb and the ESPYs even dumber. I don't care what anyone at ESPN (maybe other than Dakich) says about anything. It's almost assuredly dumb.

As for Jenner, I don't think publicity hounds are likeable people generally. But I think it should go without saying that her transition opens her up to incredible negativity and at some level that takes some courage.

Beyond that, filtering through the mindlessness of the award or invoking a competition between two people based on their life/death challenges seems particularly pointless. Thanks ESPN.
 
I honestly don't know who would be the better recipient. Jenner does kind of seem like the flavor of the month. I'd probably lean toward Hill, but was she as big of a story nationwide as she was in the Midwest?

This has to be your worst post of all time. Unless it was in jest or sarcastic.
 
Yeah, but couldn't you just as easily say that even more folks die each year due to brain cancer?

I think ESPN is really dumb and the ESPYs even dumber. I don't care what anyone at ESPN (maybe other than Dakich) says about anything. It's almost assuredly dumb.

As for Jenner, I don't think publicity hounds are likeable people generally. But I think it should go without saying that her transition opens her up to incredible negativity and at some level that takes some courage.

Beyond that, filtering through the mindlessness of the award or invoking a competition between two people based on their life/death challenges seems particularly pointless. Thanks ESPN.

Dakich is just as bad, if not worse, than ESPN overall. He is a disgrace to the university and I wish to god he would be removed from contact.

Aside from that, Jenner did nothing courageous. Choosing to suddenly transition to a woman after six decades as a male, among dozens of stories of his womanizing, is clearly a media grab.
 
I think that's going to depend on the particular authority in charge of a given sport/event, but your last sentence belies a misunderstanding about what transgender is, that I suspect is pretty common.

People need to remember that gender and sex are two separate (but related) things. Sex is biological. The vast majority of us are either male or female. There are a small number of intersex people, usually the result of abnormal chromosome division early in development (i.e., some people are XXY genetically).

Gender, however, is cultural. The vast majority of us identify as either a man or a woman (note the different terminology; man/woman vs. male/female), although some people identify as a third gender. In some cultures, there is a third gender that is actually integrated as a standard and respected part of society.

And, finally, for most of us, our gender and our sex correlate. Most males identify as men, and most females identify as women. For intersex people, they usually identify based on either their physical appearance (most XXY people have functioning male parts, for example, and identify as males; many don't even know they are XXY until they are tested as part of a fertility treatment program), or how they were raised (some intersex people are born with portions of both male and female anatomy, and the doctors advice the parents to "assign" a gender and raise the child as that gender; it used to be common for such infants to undergo gender reassignment at a very young age, so that they would not know they were intersex when older). But there are some people who are genetically one of the two main sexes, but don't identify with the same gender. Based on the fact that Jenner has fathered children, he is almost certainly a standard XY male (the vast majority of intersex males are infertile), but has always self-identified as a female. His "transition" is actually simply opening up about his self-identity to the outside world, nothing more.
USA track goes by sex. Otherwise you might have men declaring themselves female and competing in women's events. They go strictly by chromosomes and Jenner is a man. The girl he dreamed up is an alter ego and would NEVER be allowed to compete as a woman. That, I can assure you, they do chromosome tests and there has been precedent set.
 
Based on the fact that Jenner has fathered children, he is almost certainly a standard XY male (the vast majority of intersex males are infertile), but has always self-identified as a female.

So he was a Lesbian that, because of his male anatomy, was able to father 6 children? Is that what we are suggesting?
 
USA track goes by sex. Otherwise you might have men declaring themselves female and competing in women's events. They go strictly by chromosomes and Jenner is a man. The girl he dreamed up is an alter ego and would NEVER be allowed to compete as a woman. That, I can assure you, they do chromosome tests and there has been precedent set.
I think you breezed through my post without paying close attention. It's not an alter ego, it's an identity. "Alter ego" suggests a secondary, or even fake, alternate identity only for public consumption. Gender is a primary identity that is part of the sense of self.

Jenner is a male, not a man. That's the key.
 
Aside from that, Jenner did nothing courageous. Choosing to suddenly transition to a woman after six decades as a male, among dozens of stories of his womanizing, is clearly a media grab.

So he was a Lesbian that, because of his male anatomy, was able to father 6 children? Is that what we are suggesting?

I'm surprised you immediately followed calling one of my posts the dumbest I've ever posted with this drivel.
 
Dakich is just as bad, if not worse, than ESPN overall. He is a disgrace to the university and I wish to god he would be removed from contact.

Aside from that, Jenner did nothing courageous. Choosing to suddenly transition to a woman after six decades as a male, among dozens of stories of his womanizing, is clearly a media grab.
You really think this is just a publicity stunt?
 
I think you breezed through my post without paying close attention. It's not an alter ego, it's an identity. "Alter ego" suggests a secondary, or even fake, alternate identity only for public consumption. Gender is a primary identity that is part of the sense of self.

Jenner is a male, not a man. That's the key.
I didn't misunderstand any part of your post and my wording was as intended. A criminal whose identity is not his given name, will still be charged with a crime. And Jenner would never compete in an organized track meet as a woman with his current male organs.
 
Yeah, but couldn't you just as easily say that even more folks die each year due to brain cancer?

I think ESPN is really dumb and the ESPYs even dumber. I don't care what anyone at ESPN (maybe other than Dakich) says about anything. It's almost assuredly dumb.

As for Jenner, I don't think publicity hounds are likeable people generally. But I think it should go without saying that her transition opens her up to incredible negativity and at some level that takes some courage.

Beyond that, filtering through the mindlessness of the award or invoking a competition between two people based on their life/death challenges seems particularly pointless. Thanks ESPN.

I guess you could perceive courage in what Jenner has undertaken. I see it as a calculated risk, one that Jenner can manage effectively with the money that Jenner will generate from his transition. That's not courage, so far as I can tell . . . .
 
I didn't misunderstand any part of your post and my wording was as intended. A criminal whose identity is not his given name, will still be charged with a crime. And Jenner would never compete in an organized track meet as a woman with his current male organs.
If your explanation was correct, his organs are irrelevant. He's chromosomally male, and no surgery can change that. But that doesn't change the fact that your labeling gender as an "alter ego" is patently false and your apparently purposeful conflation of sex and gender is inaccurate.
 
I guess you could perceive courage in what Jenner has undertaken. I see it as a calculated risk, one that Jenner can manage effectively with the money that Jenner will generate from his transition. That's not courage, so far as I can tell . . . .
That's a good point, and it raises an obvious question: can the very fortunate truly ever show courage?
 
That's a good point, and it raises an obvious question: can the very fortunate truly ever show courage?

Of course they can . . . but not in a calculated way designed to benefit themselves in the process. That's not courage . . . that's rational decision-making . . .

. . . and in this case as much a business decision as a personal one. Otherwise why did he wait until he and Kris were divorced to pursue his gender change, at age 65 and after siring a couple of families worth of kids?
 
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Of course they can . . . but not in a calculated way designed to benefit themselves in the process. That's not courage . . . that's rational decision-making . . .

. . . and in this case as much a business decision as a personal one. Otherwise why did he wait until he and Kris were divorced to pursue his gender change, at age 65 and siring a couple of families of kids?
I'm not following this closely, but how much is this benefiting him in the process and how do we know that's his real motivation? And how do we know any financial gain would offset any negative blowback he'll experience along the way? And couldn't there be all sorts of reasons he's waited to this point? Don't some everyday Joe's make sexuality choices this late in life?

I get that folks have a bad impression of Jenner because of the horrific TV stuff, but isn't it possible he's also just a human experiencing something difficult? (I"m not even arguing that's obviously the case, I'm just asking why it's not a possibility).
 
I think you breezed through my post without paying close attention. It's not an alter ego, it's an identity. "Alter ego" suggests a secondary, or even fake, alternate identity only for public consumption. Gender is a primary identity that is part of the sense of self.

Jenner is a male, not a man. That's the key.

"Jenner is a male, not a man"

That's doesn't advance the discussion much.
There's are millions who qualify. Many wear wear onesies.
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I'm not following this closely, but how much is this benefiting him in the process and how do we know that's his real motivation? And how do we know any financial gain would offset any negative blowback he'll experience along the way? And couldn't there be all sorts of reasons he's waited to this point? Don't some everyday Joe's make sexuality choices this late in life?

I get that folks have a bad impression of Jenner because of the horrific TV stuff, but isn't it possible he's also just a human experiencing something difficult? (I"m not even arguing that's obviously the case, I'm just asking why it's not a possibility).

I never said it wasn't a possibility . . . but I just don't think that's all that's happened.
 
I'm not following this closely, but how much is this benefiting him in the process and how do we know that's his real motivation? And how do we know any financial gain would offset any negative blowback he'll experience along the way? And couldn't there be all sorts of reasons he's waited to this point? Don't some everyday Joe's make sexuality choices this late in life?

I get that folks have a bad impression of Jenner because of the horrific TV stuff, but isn't it possible he's also just a human experiencing something difficult? (I"m not even arguing that's obviously the case, I'm just asking why it's not a possibility).
I don't think that Sope's argument that he isn't showing courage requires him to agree with others that his motivation is bad. He could be honest and forthright and be doing this with all the best intentions for all the best reasons, but the fact that he waited until he was at a point in life where the negative consequences would be severely lessened could lead one to conclude that he's not actually being that brave.
 
Yeah, but couldn't you just as easily say that even more folks die each year due to brain cancer?

I think ESPN is really dumb and the ESPYs even dumber. I don't care what anyone at ESPN (maybe other than Dakich) says about anything. It's almost assuredly dumb.

As for Jenner, I don't think publicity hounds are likeable people generally. But I think it should go without saying that her transition opens her up to incredible negativity and at some level that takes some courage.

Beyond that, filtering through the mindlessness of the award or invoking a competition between two people based on their life/death challenges seems particularly pointless. Thanks ESPN.

Huh? IU1, by his own admission, is refusing to distinguish between gender and sex. I'm pointing out that he is incorrect. Jenner is a male (sex) woman (gender).

You and sope need to lighten up a little

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
 
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